1. #3121
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And? What does that have to do with each group of Elves being homogenous for most of the history of the game from Night elves and Blood Elves, to Night Borne and Void elves. There were no mixed populations of Night elves, blood elves and Nightborne in the Lore of the game itself. This has absolutely nothing to do with "black" skinned elves as an option in the character customization screen.
    And now, where is the problem with "black" skinned elves as an option in the show? There is literally no difference here lol. Black skinned elves in LOTR are not black because they fucked with Haradrim or something ...

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  2. #3122
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.
    You can now make brown blood elves that look kinda weird in the whole setting, hence the joke.
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  3. #3123
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And now, where is the problem with "black" skinned elves as an option in the show? There is literally no difference here lol. Black skinned elves in LOTR are not black because they fucked with Haradrim or something ...
    I wastn't talking about black skinned elves in the first place versus how different populations of elves were homogenous.
    You introducing this topic is irrelevant to the point as these things are only a couple years old and introduced much later.

    And what does "black" have to do with this fantasy species? They aren't humans to begin with and if they are "jet black", is that supposed to represent "real world' diversity? Where are the real world 8 foot elves with long ears in real life? "Night" elves were always the 'dark' version of elves from day one. Followed on by the "night" borne who are even darker. So what are you even talking about? The diversity was always there it is just that each group of elves were homogenous and separate from other groups of elves.


    Wow has always unique in their depiction of elves in colors that are not similar to humans. This discussion is stupid and insane. It is fantasy and as such fantasy creatures don't have to be llimited to human like skin colors just like the "trolls" animated franchise shows clearly and in that there are no melting pots of different troll breeds either (based on musical styles). You are missing the point completely.

    And again, there is no requirement for Tolkien or any other author to include any specific population of any specific background to tick a diversity check box.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-01 at 02:37 PM.

  4. #3124
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And now, where is the problem with "black" skinned elves as an option in the show? There is literally no difference here lol. Black skinned elves in LOTR are not black because they fucked with Haradrim or something ...
    My question would be 'why are they black'?

  5. #3125
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    My question would be 'why are they black'?
    Why does it matter?

  6. #3126
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Why does it matter?
    I'd like to know, that's all. Why did this interpretation of Tolkiens work decide to deviate from the previous ones? And also, what's the reason behind making some of them black? Or, for completeness, any ethnic background.

    Blizzard 'did it to Elves' to diversify. Which is fine, because people should create avatars they can identify with. What's the reason here?
    Last edited by Skulltaker; 2022-09-01 at 02:02 PM.

  7. #3127
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    I'd like to know, that's all. Why did this interpretation of Tolkiens work decide to deviate from the previous ones? And also, what's the reason behind making some of them black? Or, for completeness, any ethnic background.

    Blizzard 'did it to Elves' to diversify. Which is fine, because people should create avatars they can identify with. What's the reason here?
    Same. Nothing more nothing less. There is no lore reason. There is delibaretly no justification from the creators because it is not needed. Just white tv-shows are gone unless they are actuall historic stories. Like The Queen or stuff like that.
    But fiction will never be all white anymore. Its fiction in the first place so it doesn't matter EXPECIALLY fantasy.

    People can either get used to it or... well don't watch it anymore. No matter what people on the internet talk themselves into. The vast majorit doesn't care that some characters are now played by black actors. No matter right or left. It is a nonissue primarily discussed in the internet.

    We had the complete movie industrie since its conception basically while at the same time the western world had is the most diverse part of the world (compared to india, china, africa)
    Not moving away from an all white movie industry is just unrealistic and honestly bad buisness.
    Last edited by VinceVega; 2022-09-01 at 02:18 PM.

  8. #3128
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Same. Nothing more nothing less. There is no lore reason. There is delibaretly no justification from the creators because it is not needed. Just white tv-shows are gone unless they are actuall historic stories. Like The Queen or stuff like that.
    But fiction will never be all white anymore. Its fiction in the first place so it doesn't matter EXPECIALLY fantasy.

    People can either get used to it or... well don't watch it anymore. No matter what people on the internet talk themselves into. The vast majorit doesn't care that some characters are now played by black actors. No matter right or left. It is a nonissue primarily discussed in the internet.

    We had the complete movie industrie since its conception basically while at the same time the western world had is the most diverse part of the world (compared to india, china, africa)
    Not moving away from an all white movie industry is just unrealistic and honestly bad buisness.
    so we should expect the next black panther movie to have an all white cast based on this asinine ideology?, or how about they do a historical piece on the american civil war where the south wants to keep its slaves, but the slaves are all white people and the ruling class are all black, because apparently none of this kind of thing matters to you so lets just change everything for the sake of change and to insert race/gender politics into every single piece of media that exists moving forward right?, or how about this one, why not have every single person in the show a different colour that way anybody anywhere, whether they be terran or alien alike can identify with the show on a 'spiritual level' and no-one gets left out of their representation?, that's what you're arguing here right?

  9. #3129
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so we should expect the next black panther movie to have an all white cast based on this asinine ideology?, or how about they do a historical piece on the american civil war where the south wants to keep its slaves, but the slaves are all white people and the ruling class are all black, because apparently none of this kind of thing matters to you so lets just change everything for the sake of change and to insert race/gender politics into every single piece of media that exists moving forward right?, or how about this one, why not have every single person in the show a different colour that way anybody anywhere, whether they be terran or alien alike can identify with the show on a 'spiritual level' and no-one gets left out of their representation?, that's what you're arguing here right?
    Its not a rule. There are more than enough movies with an all white cast still. And, compared to LotR, Black Panther plays in our actuall world as an isolationist country in africa. Makes sense to be all black. Also the movie wasn't even all black in the first place.

  10. #3130
    This diversity and inclusion mandate nonsense is of limited value in this day and age of a global entertainment industry when you can see entertainment from around the world that is unique to different cultures. You aren't going to please everybody to begin with. As an example, how long have non European countries been watching European or American movies and TV shows and liking them even without any "representation"? Not to mention, how is including a few black people fixing that? That does not represent the diversity of the earths' population. And in all of this African history and culture is still not getting any representation at all. At the end of the day this idea of Africans or black people being equally indigenous to Europe or a European like setting but without referencing or including any sort of African culture or historical reference is just jarringly stupid. As if Africa doesn't exist in history and mythology at all. That is what is missing even in this 'global' age of entertainment where anybody can watch shows with all Asians or all Mexicans, but somehow all African shows are missing. You arent fixing that by inserting random black people into stories obviously set in or based on historic or ancient Europe. That doesn't even make sense and actually is racist in implying that Africans have nothing of value to put on screen to begin with.


    There is no Africa in Middle Earth. There is no Iran in Middle Earth. There is no Puerto Rico in Middle Earth. None of those are supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth. That doesn't mean that Iran doesn't have a lore or history of its own. The word "magic" comes from Magi who historically were Persians. One of the head writers of WOW was an Iranian. Africa has always had various mythologies including dwarves, nature magic, geomancy and other things. And there are various African elements even in WOW. Puerto Rico has many various traditions from Native Americans, Africa and Europe which has influenced its mythology and culture. And you see this blend in WOW with the Troll dancing and cities. Along with the various other traditions that influenced many other aspects of the game.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-01 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #3131
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It's the showrunners own words...

    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ies-first-look

    Amazon’s series will also broaden the notion of who shares the world of Middle-earth. One original story line centers on a silvan elf named Arondir, played by Ismael Cruz Córdova, who will be the first person of color to play an elf onscreen in a Tolkien project. He is involved in a forbidden relationship with Bronwyn, a human village healer played by Nazanin Boniadi, a British actor of Iranian heritage. Elsewhere, a Brit of Jamaican descent, Sir Lenny Henry, plays a harfoot elder, and Sophia Nomvete has a scene-stealing role as a dwarven princess named Disa—the latter being the first Black woman to play a dwarf in a Lord of the Rings movie, as well as the first female dwarf. “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series.
    Meaning that a crowd of people in their show will resemble a crowd of people in real life. It doesn't mean the lands of Middle-earth are being represented as capitalist democracies with lingering issues around racism and sexism stemming from historic injustices.

  12. #3132
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Same. Nothing more nothing less. There is no lore reason. There is delibaretly no justification from the creators because it is not needed. Just white tv-shows are gone unless they are actuall historic stories. Like The Queen or stuff like that.
    But fiction will never be all white anymore. Its fiction in the first place so it doesn't matter EXPECIALLY fantasy.

    People can either get used to it or... well don't watch it anymore. No matter what people on the internet talk themselves into. The vast majorit doesn't care that some characters are now played by black actors. No matter right or left. It is a nonissue primarily discussed in the internet.

    We had the complete movie industrie since its conception basically while at the same time the western world had is the most diverse part of the world (compared to india, china, africa)
    Not moving away from an all white movie industry is just unrealistic and honestly bad buisness.
    So you are saying all this is political agenda being pushed ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Meaning that a crowd of people in their show will resemble a crowd of people in real life. It doesn't mean the lands of Middle-earth are being represented as capitalist democracies with lingering issues around racism and sexism stemming from historic injustices.
    Why stop there though ?

  13. #3133
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    This diversity and inclusion mandate nonsense is of limited value in this day and age of a global entertainment industry when you can see entertainment from around the world that is unique to different cultures. You aren't going to please everybody to begin with. As an example, how long have non European countries been watching European or American movies and TV shows and liking them even without any "representation"? Not to mention, how is including a few black people fixing that? That does not represent the diversity of the earths' population. And in all of this African history and culture is still not getting any representation at all. At the end of the day this idea of Africans or black people being equally indigenous to Europe or a European like setting but without referencing or including any sort of African culture or historical reference is just jarringly stupid. As if Africa doesn't exist in history and mythology at all. That is what is missing even in this 'global' age of entertainment where anybody can watch shows with all Asians or all Mexicans, but somehow all African shows are missing. You arent fixing that by inserting random black people into stories obviously set in or based on historic or ancient Europe. That doesn't even make sense and actually is racist in implying that Africans have nothing of value to put on screen to begin with.


    There is no Africa in Middle Earth. There is no Iran in Middle Earth. There is no Puerto Rico in Middle Earth. None of those are supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth. That doesn't mean that Iran doesn't have a lore or history of its own. The word "magic" comes from Magi who historically were Persians. One of the head writers of WOW was an Iranian. Africa has always had various mythologies including dwarves, nature magic, geomancy and other things. And there are various African elements even in WOW. Puerto Rico has many various traditions from Native Americans, Africa and Europe which has influenced its mythology and culture. And you see this blend in WOW with the Troll dancing and cities. Along with the various other traditions that influenced many other aspects of the game.
    In the interview with Tolkien which I think you linked he says that the trees are based on the east from Alexander the Great story’s, Alexander the Great notable went to Egypt and Western Asia which includes Iran.

    So middle earth explicitly pulls from Africa and if not Iran it self the area around it as per Tolkien’s own words.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #3134
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    No it means it was important to choose certain actors because of their skin color
    Can you show me where anyone involved with the show said they chose a particular actor for their skin colour and not acting ability?

    I am specifically addressing the things said by the showrunners and actors themselves who said that 'diversity' was required in order to bring this story into the modern world and therefore 'improve' it.
    Can you show me where anyone involved with the show said that skin colour was going to have an effect on the story? Not diversity as pretty much the whole point of LotR and other stories is "diversity is strength."

    It is not stupid...
    Yes it is.

    No it is because of the reality...
    It's a very simple test - does a character's skin colour have any bearing on the story? If yes then cast someone with the correct skin colour. If no then cast whichever actor seems best for the role. If skin colour is irrelevant then it isn't "changing the story" it's just changing the aesthetics. Ultimately having a dark-skinned actor is no more significant than showing Aragorn and Boromir with beards, or putting the men of Gondor in plate armour instead of mail.

    Tolkien was writing a story and under no obligation to include any particular form of diversity according to any mandates for inclusion and representation. Creative freedom means being able to create whatever you want based on your on imagination and talent, not following mandates for diversity and inclusion. If someone wants to create a world that is a melting pot of diversity among all groups then they can certainly do it, but that doesn't mean trying to force that kind of melting pot diversity into something that doesn't already have it. All of that is purely up to the studio and whether they have it as a priority and we know that Amazon studios absolutely has a diversity and inclusion policy for their shows. That has absolutely nothing to do with any particular story or creator and is simply a quota system.
    You should check the "quota system" you are talking about, it isn't anywhere near as binding as you seem to think it is especially for actors appearing in front of the camera.

    I was not talking about Aragorn specifically and you included him in this discussion.
    I was talking about Aragorn because he is a very solid example of a character who was changed for a screen adaptation (the LotR trilogy directed by Peter Jackson) that went on to be massively successful, which by your argument has set a precedent for other producers making changes.

    Tolkien's own words said he did not want his story to be told be consistent and not have multiple different 'interpretations' varying in scope and character from what he wrote.
    Yeah but Tolkien only actually released the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings as finished pieces (and the Hobbit was retconned in after LotR was released.) Everything else he wrote has multiple iterations in his notes and letters.

    And Christopher Tolkien was very much following his fathers wishes, which is why it wasn't until after he died that Amazon got the rights to do this TV show.
    That's isn't altogether correct, Christopher Tolkien died two years after Amazon acquired the rights to make a Tolkien series.

    Simon Tolkien is now working with Amazon and has always had a very different opinion from his father and his brother on whether studious should be able to deviate from his fathers work. And that is how this show came to be, which means that the Estate itself is changing as time goes on.
    Simon Tolkien is Christopher Tolkien's son, JRR's grandson.

    And that is objectively false, because China and India make up the largest percentage of human diversity on earth, yet there are no Chinese in this show in any prominent roles. Tolkien was not writing his story to reflect a modern melting pot and there is no reason to include it other than studio mandates. And Tolkien as an author is not subject to those mandates and therefore doing this is not part of canon and simply irrelevant to the lore of what he actually wrote. So if some Asian studio decides to do Tolkien with all Asians then that is fine, because that too reflects the modern world, but it still isn't Tolkien.
    How many Chinese and Indian actors applied to appear in Rings of Power though? You seem to think a casting call went out for black people to play a particular role and believe they should have made a 90s style rainbow casting where boxes are checked. Isn't it perfectly possible that they just asked for people to play elves and some of them had darker skin? Also the studio mandate is a myth.

    The point is if the studio wanted those kinds of actors in the story to represent the modern world, they would have found actors fitting that background. So it is not a reflection of "the modern world". The modern world has all those groups of people and yet this show doesn't include them, so the statement is false advertising. No Chinese. No Indians, No Pakistanis and those groups are all part of the "modern world". Which means they just made up these decisions on their own as a studio for the purposes of including some black people in order to address historic racism against black people. But Tolkien was not writing his story to be racist against black people. So to argue that including them was necessary is to claim Tolkien was racist.
    The mental gymnastics you're pulling here are astounding. One group of people deciding that skin colour is not a reason to deny people the opportunity to play particular roles is not calling an author racist for writing about particular features in a group of characters. Surely the fact they feel comfortable adapting his work with a more diverse array of skin tones shows they don't think he was racists as skin colour is incidental to the characters and the stories.

  15. #3135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    In the interview with Tolkien which I think you linked he says that the trees are based on the east from Alexander the Great story’s, Alexander the Great notable went to Egypt and Western Asia which includes Iran.

    So middle earth explicitly pulls from Africa and if not Iran it self the area around it as per Tolkien’s own words.
    Inspired by does not mean set in. The Southrons in Middle Earth are inspired by Africa and Middle Eastern history and culture which even Peter Jackson managed to encapsulate that in how he presented the Haradrim in ROTK.

  16. #3136
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Its not a rule. There are more than enough movies with an all white cast still. And, compared to LotR, Black Panther plays in our actuall world as an isolationist country in africa. Makes sense to be all black. Also the movie wasn't even all black in the first place.
    ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, so there needs to be a quota on how many white people are allowed to be shown on screen in major roles for TV and film?, i wasn't aware this was a thing, thanks for letting me know about this important information so i know moving forward not to expect historical works to be respected because the industry is above the 'white person' quota for the year, good stuff.

  17. #3137
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So you are saying all this is political agenda being pushed ?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why stop there though ?
    Everything is a agenda being pushed.
    Not having an agenda is a delusion. Everyone stands for something.

    Making non-woke movie and advertising it as non-woke is an agenda. It doesn't matter.

  18. #3138
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Inspired by does not mean set in. The Southrons in Middle Earth are inspired by Africa and Middle Eastern history and culture which even Peter Jackson managed to encapsulate that in how he presented the Haradrim in ROTK.
    I mean middle earth isn’t set in Europe either with the same interview saying it’s impossible to fit middle earth into the real world at any point.

    So if chargers point was that it physically isn’t there then the point is nonsense any way because there’s also no Europe.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #3139
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, so there needs to be a quota on how many white people are allowed to be shown on screen in major roles for TV and film?, i wasn't aware this was a thing, thanks for letting me know about this important information so i know moving forward not to expect historical works to be respected because the industry is above the 'white person' quota for the year, good stuff.
    What? You are reading so far between the lines that you see things i didn't even know i wrote. Well.. you do you

  20. #3140
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Everything is a agenda being pushed.
    Not having an agenda is a delusion. Everyone stands for something.

    Making non-woke movie and advertising it as non-woke is an agenda. It doesn't matter.
    So we are in agreement. It was pushed because some political agenda with no respect to the original material.

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