Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As I said, the metaphor could be outlined in a different way, in a different setting, and still ring true for the episode.

My replies are focused on you having said "So yes they could have her go her hunt down Sauron alone at the start of the episode but that would miss the whole theme of the episode."

There is no reason to assume a story of her hunting Sauron alone would have to miss the whole theme of the episode at all.

yes and my replies focus on you missing the point given that you thought the theme was suppose to be "delving into the darkness to gain the wisdom to find the true light." which doesn't fit with the actual theme or metaphor the show gives us at all.

[rhorle]

At times? yeah, since her brother died? for centuries? HA

Yes. At times. Her zeal wasn't a problem when they had actual enemy forces to fight. There is a reason why she was leading the company sent to scour middle-earth for any remaining forces. This is how we know your objection silly though. Because you are now moving the goal posts to something else when met with resistance on your first attempt. It isn't just that any commander, even the best, can get to zealous. Now her not caring about her other siblings is the problem.

No amount of writing would please you as long as certain themes were present. Just read your own words. You say she could probably scream at the ice troll and it would die because she is so powerful but are also whining that she was shown to be more powerful then the rest of her company because she was given the "focus" of a fight scene as a main character. Weird, right? Also I never said you disliked it because she was a woman. I've merely said hate with out really defining it so it is refreshing for you to label it yourself even if we can easily assume it.

[Triceron]

yes and my replies focus on you missing the point given that you thought the theme was suppose to be "delving into the darkness to gain the wisdom to find the true light." which doesn't fit with the actual theme or metaphor the show gives us at all.

Okay.

Let's establish common understanding before we continue then.

In your own words, what was the actual theme or metaphor of the episode, and how did the show present it to us.

And secondly, why couldn't this same metaphor be applied to a story about her already gone solo with flashbacks unveiling her reasons to have gone solo.

[rhorle]

If you're the one making these claims then you need to bring the proof of it.

I did bring proof. You aren't interested in any argument because if it doesn't let you get your way you label it as "bad faith" just like you are doing now.

And to make it even more damning, we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.

This is one of your statements that show a hatred for her character. She was merely in the lead but you have to make it about her being shown to be superior when nothing of the sort was actually implied. It is the bias you are showing in the approach of "what doesn't make sense" that shows hatred. She has to be crippled to the point of requiring others in order for her company to "not be useless" is the argument you've made. If she at any point shows ability beyond them it is bad.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In your own words, what was the actual theme or metaphor of the episode, and how did the show present it to us.

Already typed it all out not once but twice at this point.

[rhorle]

Tell me you have literally not read or understood what I wrote without admitting it. You proved my point, Galadriel doesn't need them, they do need each other and Galadriel. Thank you for admitting we are right, took you a bit.

So you hate it because a main character gets a starring role in the story? Lmao.

Mate you are the only literally gas lighting saying we are blinded by hate when we have factually reasons to be upset about the show

Yet you haven't been using those facts. Strange right? Look at the other poster that was proven 100% wrong about the ice troll fight scene but still insisted they are right. Or the person that is upset she is more powerful then the other elves in that scene but also thinks she could yell the ice troll to death. Strange, right?

Just like you say she should give orders to fight or distract the troll would be better. So she is supposed to sit there and let her followers be killed or injured to give orders that serve no purpose. She can't do a surprise attack while the attention of the troll was on another person because that is "bad". None of their fights over the years is shown because they are not important to the plot. That fighting isn't important to the story. It was a small skirmish meant to show that they have gone to far and need to return.

[Kumorii]

yes and my replies focus on you missing the point given that you thought the theme was suppose to be "delving into the darkness to gain the wisdom to find the true light." which doesn't fit with the actual theme or metaphor the show gives us at all.

Findor is whispering to Galadriel as the final piece to the metaphor they hid from his at the start:
"Sometimes we cannot know until we have touched the darkness.”
Which is a respons to her question of determining which is which.

It's literally the key part of the metaphor. That you have to touch the false light (delving into darkness) to know the true light. That is the theme of the metaphor.

[rhorle]

There is no reason to assume a story of her hunting Sauron alone would have to miss the whole theme of the episode at all.

Who would have convinced her to give up her quest if she was alone? The theme was that the fighting was done and it was at last time to give up that "burden" and return to the glorious homeland as a reward. If she was alone she would have kept going, yes? She wouldn't have people there to convince her of that folly (even if it later turned out to be wrong). We know this is a strong theme because she had to be convinced yet again when she returned to the Capital. In her mind she returned for resupply and fresh troops. Again something that wouldn't be a thematic if she was alone.

[Triceron]

This is one of your statements that show a hatred for her character. She was merely in the lead but you have to make it about her being shown to be superior when nothing of the sort was actually implied. It is the bias you are showing in the approach of "what doesn't make sense" that shows hatred. She has to be crippled to the point of requiring others in order for her company to "not be useless" is the argument you've made. If she at any point shows ability beyond them it is bad.

How is this an example of hatred?

I'm pointing out how the show established these characters and illustrated the differences in their level of physical attribution. The only difference is you're equating it as zeal. Even if it is her internal motivation that drives her to be able to push further and faster than her group, it is still an example of physical superiority. She is able to work past her own fatigue where the others can not. That is what I mean by physical superiority. I'm making a point that, for unexplained reasons, the show has presented her as being more physically capable than the Elves around her.

Perhaps you're reading hatred where there is none because you just want to project a bogus argument that is easier for you to attack?

I'm literally calling you out for a bad faith argument because that's exactly what this is. If I'm literally telling you I have no hatred for Galadriel and my arguments aren't focused on hating her at all, then your assertion that it is hatred is nothing more than bad faith. It's an ignorant assumption on your part.

Just like if you claimed that I'm racially discriminant because for arguing against you because of your skin color, that'd also be an ignorant, bad faith argument. It literally has nothing to do with my arguments against you. You can make the claim all you want, but it'd still be untrue.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Findor is whispering to Galadriel as the final piece to the metaphor they hid from his at the start:
"Sometimes we cannot know until we have touched the darkness.”
Which is a respons to her question of determining which is which.

It's literally the key part of the metaphor. That you have to touch the false light (delving into darkness) to know the true light. That is the theme of the metaphor.

Delving and touching are not the same thing.

[Triceron]

Already typed it all out not once but twice at this point.

Here's the kicker.

They could literally present this exact scene as a flashback at the end of the episode and it would still work for a solo hunt for Sauron story. Have it be the revelation for why she decides to go solo, without her actually be stuck in the middle of the ocean. It would merely be implied that present-day Galadriel has already made her way back in Middle Earth.

[Syegfryed]

The rocks in the Metaphor would be the elf's who stay on the boat and go home as they are suppose to stay there for ever "seeing only downwards"(going home) because the darkness is "vast and irresistible". while Galadriel Is the ship Feeling the call of the dark(going home) But "her gaze is not downwards but up Fixed upon the light that guides her" being her quest for Sauron.

She had lost her way because "its hard to say which way is up and which way is down" until she touches the darkness which was the gate to there homeland.

You want to make so that her "reaching the gate of her homeland" is her "touching the darkness?" come on my dude, not even you believe that

The touching the darkness is obviously a set up to her have the hots fr not-sauron

[rhorle]

I'm pointing out how the show established these characters and illustrated the differences in their level of physical attribution.

So what is the problem with a main character having more ability then characters inconsequential to the plot? The canon, not that RoP is bound by it, indicates that she has more power then most elves. Yet there is a problem somewhere because that is shown and that she isn't equal to others. Internal motivation is not physical it is mental. This is another example of you leaning into hatred and justifying it afterwards. Mental fortitude is now a physical thing because that is the only way your argument works.

The others clearly work past their own fatigue because they are still following her. That is really a smoking gun in defeat of your claim. Wouldn't it show more superiority to resist giving up and pressing on to keep up with a person that has not yet given up? She is motivated by her zeal. They are motivated by their duty despite their misgivings. You might not think you have hatred but you can see it in the arguments and reasoning you are using. It is bad faith to say you don't have dislike of the scene when you keep arguing against it. Yet you are blind to that because somehow it isn't you for "reasons".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You want to make so that her "reaching the gate of her homeland" is her "touching the darkness?" come on my dude, not even you believe that

The touching the darkness is obviously a set up to her have the hots fr not-sauron

They Literally add the final part of the metaphor as she touching the golden light of her homeland, if you really think that was done in such a way to set up her falling for a character she didn't even meet till half an episode later I don't even know what to say.

[rhorle]

They could literally present this exact scene as a flashback at the end of the episode and it would still work for a solo hunt for Sauron story. Have it be the revelation for why she decides to go solo, without her actually be stuck in the middle of the ocean. It would merely be implied that present-day Galadriel has already made her way back in Middle Earth.

But doesn't that fall into to the same problems you have with "the first 20 mins"? That things are not happening on-screen? That we have to use implication. So why is it bad that we use implication that her followers are useful in one scene but also good to use implication in the other? Wouldn't her journey back be more relevant to the plot then a throw away squad of elves that may never appear again?

[Kumorii]

Delving and touching are not the same thing.

Explain the difference to me in this context. Genuine question. Is it different scale? I would imagine delving into a topic is more than touching upon a topic. But in this context I'm not sure what the difference would be since it's metaphorical.

[Triceron]

So what is the problem with a main character having more ability then characters inconsequential to the plot?

Er, there is no problem.

I would agree with you that there is no problem with a main character having more ability than other characters who are inconsequential to the plot. We have this very situation play out with Galadriel having more capability than all the survivors on the raft (sans Dude who Saved Her). There is nothing wrong with this.

The others clearly work past their own fatigue because they are still following her.

But they are still shown as being useless when pitted against an obstacle of significance. This scene illustrates that the rest of the team is no longer capable of even holding a fight against a Snow Troll, and that Galadriel is the only one who is. This is literally how the show depicts this scene. No other Elf gains ANY hits on this thing, or even manages to hinder it in any way. They all got wrecked until Galadriel came to save them.

My problem is that the show literally has Galadriel babysitting her troops. What I think the show should have done is establish scenes that show us why they are necessary for her to progress instead. Kumorii made a great example with the Rock climbing, and how they could have been show to help each other up. They even had a scene for Galadriel needing support in the second episode, where Galadriel is about to drown and someone else saves her, illustrating that she needs support from other people. The first 20 minutes of the show does not show this at all, because Galadriel is never actually shown depending on any of her company.


Does this make sense?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Here's the kicker.

They could literally present this exact scene as a flashback at the end of the episode and it would still work for a solo hunt for Sauron story. Have it be the revelation for why she decides to go solo, without her actually be stuck in the middle of the ocean. It would merely be implied that present-day Galadriel has already made her way back in Middle Earth.

The whole point is that the uncertainty of rather she is on the right path or not culminating with her "touching the darkness" at the end to Realize which is which. If you just have her already on the side of the light and then just throw in that scene at the end as a flash back you miss the whole point.

[Syegfryed]

Yes. At times. Her zeal wasn't a problem when they had actual enemy forces to fight. There is a reason why she was leading the company sent to scour middle-earth for any remaining forces

So you admit the company is send to find remaining forces of the enemy

If they are like that, why they suck so much ass??? it does, not, make, any, sense.

This is how we know your objection silly though. Because you are now moving the goal posts to something else when met with resistance on your first attempt. It isn't just that any commander, even the best, can get to zealous. Now her not caring about her other siblings is the problem.

who is moving goalposts here? isn't you who said "b-b-b-ut gondor soldiers!" in a way to salvage the argument?

If you still want to show she can get "zealous at times" you are still wrong, the show does not show that, it show she have an unfair mental ilness about this subject that make her not give two shits about her group but to be suicidal and jump fo a boat miles away from shore

This is not the profile of a commander who, presumably, fought wars, is highly educated and have more than EIGHT thousand years

No amount of writing would please you as long as certain themes were present

.

Wrong, again, deflecting, there is many ways of how the scene could ahve worked some of then @Triceron pointed out

Just read your own words. You say she could probably scream at the ice troll and it would die because she is so powerful but are also whining that she was shown to be more powerful then the rest of her company because she was given the "focus" of a fight scene as a main character. Weird, right?

Show her screaming at the Troll, or using magic or whatever would be a canon way to demonstrate how she is strong without the necessity to make the elite squad of elves to look like fat hobbits

They could have make her separate from the group, find one troll and kill it, while the group fights another and kill him, without getting their asses handled to then

Again, they are using tv troops to show have stronger and wiser - making everyone else dumber and weaker -, this is not a bad troop by itself, but the execution is awful, bad writing that does not make sense in the context, as they are not just randoms but an elite squad.

Its like when they have to make everyone dumber to make Batman look intelligent, this is bad writing when you cannot write Batman intelligent, tis bad there and its bad here.

Also I never said you disliked it because she was a woman. I've merely said hate with out really defining it so it is refreshing for you to label it yourself even if we can easily assume it.

Are you even reading? lmao, i said you were this close to say it, not that you said it, no wonder how you are defending the show, you probably didn't paid attention either.

But alas, you did say it now, its amazing how you ahve to run to the safe route cause you don't ahve any good arguments

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They Literally add the final part of the metaphor as she touching the golden light of her homeland, if you really think that was done in such a way to set up her falling for a character she didn't even meet till half an episode later I don't even know what to say.

You rly think their shit ass "meptaphor" will be something that is only important in the first episode to mean only just that?

You ahve a lot of faith in the writers who came up with something as dumb as "the rock looks down"

[Triceron]

The whole point is that the uncertainty of rather she is on the right path or not culminating with her "touching the darkness" at the end to Realize which is which. If you just have her already on the side of the light and then just throw in that scene at the end as a flash back you miss the whole point.

It doesn't miss the point, it merely punctuates it in a different way.

Context is important, and I think you're somehow intentionally equating that scene as only working if she were still with them at this moment in time, and making that decision at that very point. I think it works just as well as a flashback scene showing a pivotal moment of her 'turn to the light', because it merely punctuates the situation she's already in. If the show were focused on her struggles alone, and her put into a 'worst of the worst' situation that makes it look like she's made a terrible decision to hoof it alone, then the flashback scene showing her making that initial choice could be the motivation she needs to push through said sticky-situation.

Just as the flashback of her brother was the very reason she jumps off the boat.