Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Sialina]

So if you can enjoy both why can I not also enjoy both? If there is plenty of mature fantasy with illogical bits then your conclusion is flawed, right? Because "internal logic" isn't in existence across all mature fantasy so there is nothing to indicate I don't care about internal logic. Why not address the parts I claim are logical rather then create a strawman that even you don't seem to fully understand.

You clearly didn't read what I wrote. You can disregard logic very easily, others can't. Some of us HATE when things don't make sense and we will not watch or read mature fantasy with illogical bits beyond the very small things, why? Because it sucks and it kills the world building.

Someone said about the elven characterization, i laughed my ass off when i saw that old dude playing Celembrinbor or whatever is his name, the guy is supposed to be younger than Galadriel, and he looks finished.

Elrond actor, just like Galadriel, does not sell, he look dumb as f, totally ruining the image we had from the movies

Elves with short hair also look wrong, but that is indeed nittpicking, the buzzcut though? that is bs, i can't get a fade that good.

Celebrimbor is one of the worst offenders in the show, he looks ready for the retirement home, elves don't age beyond their prime years and yeah, the fades.. you usually don't see cosplay this bad. It is even more jarring because some of the backgrounds are so beautiful and elven, then you get this old guy in an ill-fitting robe cosplaying in front of it.. ewwww

[tomten]

After just having finished episode 1 and 2.
This is what I have to say and how I feel.

If this was some off brand fantasy series with medium budget in today's terms for big studios like amazon, hbo, etc..
I would rate it a strong 6 and I would see a few more eps on how story, characters etc are developing and what the main story is about. Before I made up my mind completely.

However, since its both a Billion dollar production AND Lord of the rings brand and all that material available for them, I do feel its pretty shitty in terms of production value, the customes/makeup etc feels like it's lacking epicness, the casting choices are odd and unfitting, and dialogues are bland, boring and sometimes even just confusing. The story hasn't really lead anywhere and it's not really setting something epic up either.
I feel like they totally failed to make the viewer want more and sit edge of our seat, screaming when is the next episode coming, at least for me.
Which happened with shows like breaking bad, the wire, Game of thrones and even lord of the rings when we knew more were coming for the movie trilogy.

This? This is a pathetic and shameful production on such a great legacy and I give it a weak 4.

[Xath]

Who deemed then false? you? lol, you just went spitbolling in the thread trying to make gotchas saying everyone is "hatting" on the show for no reason, you have no horse in this race, you literally can't say something is good, your focus is trying to prove they are not garbage.

There is plenty of shit to nittpick, like the terrible armor they are using, like how they use the sword in a stupid way, how she swordboard the sword, but those shenanigans you can ignore, suspension of disbelief, or whatever, but we are talking about fundamental flaws in the narrative and bad writing that a show like this should not have, this is low level fanfiction

It's best to just put them on ignore they have no idea about source material and are only here to argue things that fit their political view check the wot thread if you want to giggle at sheer ignorance.

[Triceron]

Because criticism that is unfounded or selectively applied is dumb. It does nothing but echo hatred of something.

And you're just echoing hatred of people who criticize something you don't agree should be criticized. Why does this bother you so much?

Hell, I can jump right into your post history, and all you do is jump into antagonize people for expressing any criticism. I can see right here that you haven't engaged in any good discussions for the past 10 pages of your message history.

Maybe you should get off your high horse if you think you're some sort of arbiter-of-good-discussion. Cuz I could literally ask you the same thing - why not offer something good to talk about instead of whatever the fuck you're actually doing here. All you're doing is stirring shit up, like calling me a hater. Somehow you think that will result in good discussion? I think you're delusional if you actually think your methods will somehow result in what you actually want to accomplish.

In fact, it has the opposite effect. I have no reason to hate Galadriel, but if you're dead set on calling me a hater, then I might as well irrationally shit on her character just cuz I know it bothers you. Cuz I'm literally under no impression of having 'high level good discussions' here. And you can't exactly bullshit a bullshitter. This is fucking MMO-Champion, where exactly do you think you are?

[Syegfryed]

The show.

The very show that contradict itself and proves us right? sure buddy, think that way if feels better

I questioned proved I was correct

You ignoring what people said, and inventing something to fit your narrative does not "make you correct"

Galadriel being more powerful then her troops is not a fundamental flaw in the narrative.

See, here is the problem, you can't make an argument without using a Strawman

who the fuck said she being more powerful than her troops is a fundamental flaw? no one did, you made that shit up to

The fundamental flaw is how they did that, how things unfold, is amateur level of writing

It didn't need a long drawn out fight scene showcasing the individual accomplishments of each elf under her command.

The only one saying that is you, because, again, you have to make a strawman to attack, amusing

This is not low level fan fiction and if you've actually seen such a thing you would not state such and be expected to be taken seriously. Such silly statements and exaggerations undermine anything legitimate you might say.

Your arguments are as bad as the writing in the show

[rhorle]

You clearly didn't read what I wrote. You can disregard logic very easily, others can't. Some of us HATE when things don't make sense and we will not watch or read mature fantasy with illogical bits beyond the very small things, why? Because it sucks and it kills the world building.

And yet that has nothing to do with what I've said in this thread. Because logic isn't the point of failure. Strange how things have to make sense to you in order for it to also be logical. Not to mention the fight scene is in the realm of very small things. Yet here you are saying you can't enjoy something because it exists. Strange how nothing you say is grounded in anything being discussed.

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You aren't offering any high level good effort discussions either. Maybe you should get off your high horse if you think you're some sort of saviour of the forums here.

Because you keep dragging it down. I've matched you point for point when you wanted did not want to focus on the stupid things and that led to you contradicting your argument and stating you don't actually have a problem with the things you say you have a problem with. You couldn't let it go and keep trying to get a "win" any way you can.

I'm not echoing hatred by calling out stupid criticism or your own contradictions. The only one who thinks I'm the savior of the forums here is yourself. Why can't you handle someone disagreeing with you that you give me a god complex? Am I that intimidating you have to constantly invent new ways to demean me?

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The very show that contradict itself and proves us right? sure buddy, think that way if feels better

It doesn't contradict itself in this regard. The elves were not useless. They were not made deliberately weak to show the superiority of Galadriel. I didn't ignore anything people said or invent a narrative. Her being more powerful then her troops is the topic of my discussions which you called fundamental flaws. This is the problem. You are so caught up in being contrary to some one that doesn't hate the same things as you that you don't even have an a clue to what is being discussed. lol.

[Syegfryed]

The elves were not useless.

Again, false, the elves were useless, they didn't do shit, that is a fact, you can see the episode for yourself

They were not made deliberately weak to show the superiority of Galadriel.

they straight up did, as they didn't even land ONE blow

I didn't ignore anything people said or invent a narrative.

You did right here, like you took only part of the quote and started making nonsense again, but yeah, keep living in your dream buddy

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It's best to just put them on ignore they have no idea about source material and are only here to argue things that fit their political view check the wot thread if you want to giggle at sheer ignorance.

He prob didn't even watch the show, lmao, but you are right gonna just ignore.

[rhorle]

Again, false, the elves were useless, they didn't do shit, that is a fact, you can see the episode for yourself

The elves were ambushed. None of them noticed the troll when they first entered but its hand is shown briefly on screen to indicate it knows of them. Two to Three go taken out by an ice chunk. The others kept close enough to imply they are fighting it even if they aren't doing very well. Her second in command creates a platform for Galadriel to leap from. The Ice Troll was distracted stomping on the elves so it didn't see her surprise attack. She quickly finished it as she is the main character and would typically get the "glory" in the story.

Their importance to the story isn't designed for a long drawn out fight scene in a tunnel. Where did Tolkien ever depict every elf as always landing blows on every target? Can some not fail? Remember they are tired. They want to go home. They've pressed on after they should have camped. There is even the possibility that politics were at play and they purposefully threw the fight to convince her to return home. Remember we later learn that many are convinced Galadriel could cause the dark forces to return and there is a large effort to get her to "move on". Of course the part about being thrown isn't stated on screen or in the notes. It however shows that their story purpose was to indicate fatigue and a need to return home. Does that sword to the floor kneeling have a significance in Tolkien-cannon?

Is the show perhaps moving to slow? Could it use more action? Sure. The first two episodes are really just short clips with no real cohesiveness to them. It might be one of the fundamental flaws to the show depending on how they combine all those different threads/viewpoints. I still haven't ignored anything you, or others, have posted. It isn't a requirement to quote a full post or acknowledge word for word what some one has posted. You don't even do that even though it seems to be a standard you require in others.

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It's best to just put them on ignore they have no idea about source material and are only here to argue things that fit their political view check the wot thread if you want to giggle at sheer ignorance.

The source material is the show. It is not bound by anything else as it has already been stated that they will make changes where they deem appropriate. I'm sure part of that is because of the complicated rights to the work of Tolkien. Amazon only owns the rights to use certain parts though the company that owns the other rights is involved with Amazon to one degree or another.

Yet it is always easier to deflect into insults or "ignore them while still taking pot shots".

[InfiniteCharger]

Specific false criticisms is not every criticism. It is crazy how haters always have an all or nothing policy when it comes to things. That if you don't back them on every criticism even if it is wrong or unfounded then you are the unreasonable one here. It isn't trolling to stand up to hate just for the sake of it. I get MMO-Champion in its twilight years has attracted a lot of folks who love to hate-consume content but calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a troll is dumb.

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It does however fit this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io1L8IjuQ6w

It is silly to claim that fights in High Fantasy have never relied on a solo character to win. Or that others were losing until one character shows up. The scene in question is not different just to be different. It is a a short fight where characters got ambushed from a prey that was stalking them. (The hand of the troll briefly shows on screen when they first enter the tunnels/cavern). Saved by the main character. That fits as much as your grandiose scenes do.

That video did not show a solo character winning a fight not to mention a larger battle or war by themselves. So you just demolished your own argument.

This is one troll vs 10 elves. There is no reason they as a group, even without Galadriel should not have been able to win that..

The point here is just use WOW as an analogy. These Elves don't know the basics of dungeon combat.
Lets go play by play:

1) First elf encounters the troll: His only response was to run back to the group, he gave them a warning
2) Rest of elves hear him scream and turn: They then draw arrows in the open not using the cave walls as cover, first elf throws torch
3) Troll throws piece of ice at elves: They get hit and taken out because they are standing in open, no display of tactics or coordination
4) Troll then comes in and starts attacking: No coordination among the elves. When one is being attacked the others do nothing
5) Galadriel comes running in: Sees the troll wiping the elves all over the floor and walls
6) Elf with galadriel puts sword down: Galadriel goes in for the kill with sword and dagger
7) Full carry by Galadriel.

All of that was just written and choreographed to show those Elves as helpless against the troll, while showing Galadriel as the 'hero'.
This is deliberate and intentional. And there is no payoff. They don't say "sorry commander, we almost lost" or "thanks".
They say, "we never should have come here", basically acknowledging that one troll is more than they can handle..And they quit.
And before you say that this happened in Tolkien before where one troll causes everybody to quit, I sure would like to see it.

There is no way this is a perfect example of a dungeon run in high fantasy. It is not.

It is a perfect example of badly written and choreographed fight scene that contradicts the idea of these Elves being trained soldiers who have fought together for hundreds of years with Galadriel. In all that time are you seriously claiming that they never fought a single troll before? Like what have been doing all this time? Hundreds of years of experience in the North on these missions and they give up because of one troll?

That is hilariously stupid.

[rhorle]

That video did not show a single character winning a fight not to mention a larger battle or war by themselves. So you just demolished your own argument.

It did unless you are using a definition for "fight" beyond the normal one. It doesn't demolish anything I've said though because those things do exist in fantasy works. It is silly to pretend that a single character is never important to a fight or battle. Have you never heard of a single champion to decide a battle? You can't say the elves don't the basics of dungeon combat. Not to mention how flawed your video game example is because even World-First caliber players can still make mistakes. Something you are claiming can't happen to a group of elves that are tired and pushed to their limit after being stalked by the Troll.

Of course she is the Hero. It is her story. She is the main character. Did you think otherwise? Her troop members are ultimately unimportant to the story and likely will never appear again. At least as the "same" people even if the actors are reused as extras. It is silly that you think fighting together for hundreds of years means that they always perform at peak efficiency and skill. None of them died or were shown to be even moderately wounded.

[Triceron]

I'm not echoing hatred by calling out stupid criticism or your own contradictions.

If your goal is high-level discussion, how do you think calling out stupid criticism gets people to stop?

You are absolutely echoing hatred, since you even go as far as calling other people haters for merely expressing criticism. You equate stupid criticism with haters, and you're chastising people for expressing it. How do you think that helps any situation?

Do you somehow think you're helping push people towards high-level good discussion this way? Cuz you already know, we can go for days filling up this thread with more cyclical bullshit about how the first episode failed, and how much you think the show needs to be defended and the haters be called out. None of it would actually steer towards anything constructive, we both know that.

Like I said, you're delusional to think that whatever you're doing helps discussion at all. If you actually want things to stop, best you stop yourself since the last few pages is literally a bunch of people arguing against you and you arguing against other people. Whatever good-faith you have in good discussion would still be drowned out by your SJWing.

As much as you want to call people out, we're all just going to redouble our stance and call you out for being delusional, like thinking the Elves actually hit the Troll before Galadriel took care of it.

Don't hide behind 'good discussion' bullshit, you're not interested in that at all. All you want is to stir shit up and troll.

[s_bushido]

This is one troll vs 10 elves. There is no reason they as a group, even without Galadriel should not have been able to win that.

Because the writers/director wanted to show that Galadriel was more than just talk? That she was actually a competent warrior?

I have no idea why this is even a discussion.

Main character does main character stuff. It's not even that remarkable. Especially not in the context of a Tolkien elf main character...who have been shown on film to be capable of this shit for two decades now.

[Triceron]

Because the writers/director wanted to show that Galadriel was more than just talk? That she was actually a competent warrior?

I have no idea why this is even a discussion.

Main character does main character stuff. It's not even that remarkable. Especially not in the context of a Tolkien elf main character...who have been shown on film to be capable of this shit for two decades now.

LIke it's been said so many times before, there is easily a way to show Galadriel as a good warrior without her taking literally everything away from the rest of her company.

A concerted effort that displays her leadership and teamwork while having her deal the big blows would work just as effectively. Just like it worked in the Lord of the Rings Moria Cave Troll scene.

And if they wanted to show off more of her skill, then add in more obstacles for her to showcase said skills. It doesn't have to be shown by having a Snow Troll wipe the floor with her party, and having her dispatch it completely on her own. Show them circling around it, show them zoning it into a corner with fire, show them peppering it with arrows. We even see dudes holding a bow and never seen using it.

[Syegfryed]

Because the writers/director wanted to show that Galadriel was more than just talk? That she was actually a competent warrior?

I have no idea why this is even a discussion.

Main character does main character stuff. It's not even that remarkable. Especially not in the context of a Tolkien elf main character...who have been shown on film to be capable of this shit for two decades now.

If you actually pay attention to the discussion, we are not complaining she is doing "main character stuff" we are complaining of the bad execution reflecting poor writing.

This is not some third-rade fantasy bs with low budget that we can handwave the amount of bs.

when the Fellowship of the ring fight the troll, did everyone get pummelled and were saved by Aragorn or Legolas alone? no, that is the distinction of something done right and done wrong.

How did they make Gandalf look badass while fighting the Balrog? he did alone, without the need of he apt getting wrecked by it.

I said many times, simple way to do this was to separate her from the group, so she deal with it alone, or, to be even better, make two trolls, one fro the group and one for her, to show the difference of power, 10 elves can win against a troll easily, but Galadriel alone as well.

[Biomega]

LIke it's been said so many times before, there is easily a way to show Galadriel as a good warrior without her taking literally everything away from the rest of her company.

But they WANT her to stand out from the rest of her company. Showing them fail after being exhausted but showing that Galadriel doesn't let that sort of thing slow her down is important. She's being kept going by something inside her, despite conditions that break everyone else. That's a point they want to make, because that's what leads into the mutiny shortly after. They've had enough, even if she can still keep going.

[s_bushido]

LIke it's been said so many times before, there is easily a way to show Galadriel as a good warrior without her taking literally everything away from the rest of her company.

A concerted effort that displays her leadership and teamwork while having her deal the big blows would work just as effectively.

Meanwhile, back in reality, it was her lieutenant who set her up for her first swing to begin with. Him giving her a boost into the fight isn't all that different than Merry poking the troll so that it opened its moth for Legolas to kill it. Because up till that point, it too had been wiping the floor with the Fellowship...

[Triceron]

But they WANT her to stand out from the rest of her company. Showing them fail after being exhausted but showing that Galadriel doesn't let that sort of thing slow her down is important. She's being kept going by something inside her, despite conditions that break everyone else. That's a point they want to make, because that's what leads into the mutiny shortly after. They've had enough, even if she can still keep going.

And like I've said many times, it has the consequence of making it look like she doesn't really need them at all other than for their torch-holding and extra bag space for items. It's pretty clear she's been last-hitting things and taking all the EXP and carrying the rest of the chumps.

If they want to show that she can't survive without them, then they need to establish that in some way. Yet every moment in the first 20 minutes is all about showing how much more capable she is than the rest. Not just in one or two moments, but every moment. I'd agree with you if it were just this one fight that illustrates how well-off she is and how the rest are fatigued, but the fact that she's like this in every scene just makes them seem pointless.

Like, the whole rock climbing scene was done without ropes, done without support, and Galadriel was way ahead of her team. It exemplifies that she's not a good leader, too overzealous to make rational decisions, and if her character really was this zealous and over-confident in her own abilities, the sensible narrative decision would have been to abandon her company rather than accompany them back. Because they've literally established her ignoring orders and being single-mindedly fixated on hunting Sauron already. The Snow Troll scene merely cements the idea that the rest of the Elves really are holding her back, especially when they decide to head back EVEN THOUGH THEY JUST FOUND EVIDENCE SAURON IS STILL OUT THERE.

Based on the characterization we see in the first 20 minutes, the natural progression for her would be to abandon her party right then and there.

For her to reconsider at all is not a character inflecting on something she did wrong, it's actually Galadriel acting out of character based on what we know and see of her in the first 20 minutes. If Galadriel were reflecting on her actions and having done something wrong, they need to show her internalizing it somehow, like her giving the command to head back. If you actually watch the scene, it actually ends with her making a stern face of disapproval, the music getting tense, and her grasping her dagger and moving out. That's not an indication that she actually reflected on her actions and felt she was in the wrong.

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Meanwhile, back in reality, it was her lieutenant who set her up for her first swing to begin with. Him giving her a boost into the fight isn't all that different than Merry poking the troll so that it opened its moth for Legolas to kill it. Because up till that point, it too had been wiping the floor with the Fellowship...

And I'd ask you - was it even necessary for her to dispatch the Troll? If it was, then sure I may agree that would have been significant teamwork at play.

But the fact is she did so many free hits on it, was able to dodge its attack and roll away while getting more hits in, deal blows without even looking at her target, and finishing it off with a dagger strike to the head... I think you really need to watch that scene again and let me know if you really think Galadriel would be unable to trek the north alone without the aid of springboards.

[Biomega]

And like I've said many times, it has the consequence of making it look like she doesn't really need them at all other than for their torch-holding and extra bag space for items.

Wrong.

It shows she didn't need them FOR THIS FIGHT. And even that is debatable, since she could well have lost had she been the one ambushed instead of her men.

By your logic, she steps on a bug and goes "oh what, I could do this by myself? Guess it's time to ditch the troops!". She took them with her for a reason. Just because THIS FIGHT didn't require backup doesn't mean she never will or never wants any.

To jump immediately from "it happened in this one circumstance, therefore it'll always happen" is idiotic. Doubly so because she quite clearly DIDN'T just go "oh you want to leave? fine, I can do this myself anyway" when they threatened to leave.

[Syegfryed]

I just want to remember everyone that we are talking about so many shit, in the very first episode

There is so many bad writing, dialogues and lore changes in one episode alone that im afraid to watch the second, but i will power trough this weekend

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It shows she didn't need them FOR THIS FIGHT.

And its the only one we saw, it also shows she didn't need then for anything, at all

Like its being aid many times, this entire scene could have worked in the hands of better writers who could actually put something that makes sense in a way she can still look strong and everyone not be a dumbass.

[Biomega]

And its the only one we saw, it also shows she didn't need then for anything, at all

If it's the only think we see, how about we restrict our statements to what we actually see. Instead of going off of what we see, and then apply that to everything we DON'T see.

She didn't need them for X = therefore she doesn't need them for Y would already be flawed, but you go to therefore she doesn't need them for ANYTHING. Which is not only more ridiculous on a logical level (since even that simple X/Y isn't a justified conclusion) but is also directly contradicted by the fact that she chose to take people along, and when those people threatened to leave, she relented and went with them. If she REALLY didn't need them, or thought she didn't, doing that makes no sense.

You have nothing to justify your claim other than "I can imagine a world in which they wrote it like that!" which is a laughable argument.