1. #5321
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Eregion isn't a city. It is the region. The city you are talking about is Ost-in-Edhil. You are the one that is claiming the tower in Mordor is a replacement for a tower in Ost-in-Edhil. It isn't. The show has put a focus on Ost-in-Edhil and the forging of the rings but is establishing other story lines in the process. The watch tower where the elves were watching humans of mordor is not a replacement for anything. We have the elves ask the dwarves to help build a tower. A tower in Eregion. Why would Amazon have dwarves build a tower to forge rings of power if they were using the tower in Mordor for that purpose

    Sauron was building his forces prior to the rings being made so this is what the show is hinting at with the Mordor scenes. About 100 years after the rings were forged there was a war between Sauron and Elves. https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/War_of_...ves_and_Sauron. So even without Amazon compressing the time line he would still have an army around that time.

    You don't know the Tolkien lore. You don't know the show lore. Just stop before you keep arguing things not even present.
    Eregion is an Elven realm with the main city being Ost-in-Edhil. Again, the whole realm of Eregion was founded according to the writing of the original lore was to be a bulwark against Sauron in some accounts. And it is to that city, prior to Sauron's presence and location being identified, that he traveled in disguise as the Elves were not expecting him. That made Eregion the center of the story in this era of the 2nd age and once Sauron was exposed as Annatar, he laid siege to Eregion. So all the elements of Elven defenses against Sauron, Sauron's trickery and deception in hiding his armies and the creation of the rings of power all centered around Eregion.

    This tower in Amazon's story is an alternate location as a focus for their narrative as there is no Annatar and the forces of Sauron are not far to the south to keep from being detected. They are relatively close by the tower and thus ultimately detected so as to create a new flashpoint or center point for the conflict in this story separate from Eregion. Amazon is making their own version of the story and it is not going to follow the story as told by Tolkien. So obviously this tower and the human towns are supposed to be a focus of the conflict which is why they have this elven commander to act as a placeholder for Sauron. Otherwise, compressed timeline or not, there would be no need to have this tower as the focus because the story would simply be about Annatar infiltrating the Elves at Eregion.

    You haven't disputed this and the show itself is telling you this. If Galadriel is going to war with the forces of Numenor they will be going to war at the tower not at Eregion. It is obvious that is the intent here. Eregion and the rings of power being created is likely going to come much later in a later season.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-20 at 10:42 PM.

  2. #5322
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    This tower in Amazon's story in making this tower is using it as some alternate location as a focus for their narrative as there is no Annatar and the forces of Sauron are not far to the south to keep from being detected. They are relatively close by the tower and thus ultimately detected so as to create a new flashpoint or center point for the conflict in this story separate from Eregion.
    Again. The tower where the rings were forged has been shown on the show. It is what Elrond recruited the dwarves to build. It is not the same tower that Arondir was stationed at. Sauron also recruited humans to his army in the second age and the show is exploring that. It hasn't replaced the Eregion story. You keep arguing your own head canon rather then what has been displayed on the show.
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  3. #5323
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Orcs have been shown to be reluctant to go in the sunlight. Without a superior in the group to force the issue it fits with Tolkien's work that they might decide not to.
    thats just bullshit plot convenience because they have show to not have any problem to go in the sun light, especially when they are fully covered and could stand it just fine, especially if its to retrieve the item they have being searching for so long

    Instead the show is treating then like vampires or trolls. Another bs thing for the sake of the plot to be keep going, there is nothing "fits with tolkien work".

  4. #5324
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    The orcs reach the edge of the wood and Arondir & co stand there for a full half minute while the orcs snarl at them. It's not until just before they decide to turn and run that a couple of arrows conveniently miss them. Just another poorly done moment in the show.
    i think what ppls miss here (and what’s the reason for above discussed scene is): in the wood Arondir catched a flying arrow by hands, that otherwise had killed the boy. this scene was there imo to make clear, after the scene when he tried to escape, how trained and elven-powered he is.

    and imo that’s also the reason why they just stand there in the sun, awaiting the charging orcs. because if they run away and show their backs to the orcs, the orcs fire them arrows into their backs. so Arondir just stand there, to be ready to defend or catch some arrow again.

    imo that’s the reason (or was the intention) of this scene.

  5. #5325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Instead the show is treating then like vampires or trolls. Another bs thing for the sake of the plot to be keep going, there is nothing "fits with tolkien work".
    Tolkien wrote several times that Orcs don't like the light. That doesn't mean they never went into it but it does indicate that some might not go into the light unless forced. You don't know Tolkien's work as well as you think if you believe it doesn't fit with what he wrote on the subject.

    Thus because of the curse that lay upon them the Noldor achieved nothing, while Morgoth hesitated, and the dread of light was new and strong upon the Orcs…
    East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight….
    ‘Unless our enemies rest also, they will leave us far behind, if we stay to sleep.’ said Legolas. ‘Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?’ said Gimli. ‘Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. yet these have done so,’ said Legolas. ‘Certainly they will not rest by night.’
    ‘Now straight on!’ shouted Uglúk. ‘West and a little north. Follow Lugdush.’

    ‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners.

    ‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’

    ‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’

    ‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!'
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  6. #5326
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Tolkien wrote several times that Orcs don't like the light. That doesn't mean they never went into it but it does indicate that some might not go into the light unless forced. You don't know Tolkien's work as well as you think if you believe it doesn't fit with what he wrote on the subject.
    I see you try to keep lying to hold the argument, trying to lecture me about orcs, Dislike the Sun does not mean you are a vampire and you burn from it, neither mean you don't go tog et your prey that is helpless right in front of you that are holding the thing you were looking for

  7. #5327
    Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

    And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

    But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-21 at 04:42 AM.

  8. #5328
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.
    Oh yes, lets ignore the bullshit just because the creators specifically mentioned they were going to do bullshit, thats some great logic right there.

    "more nascent orcs" would not be vampires, they do not burn in the sunlight, they are pale because you know it, wink wink, and they they wear clothes to protect from the sun, which is perfectly fine, but they just ignore that they have it and were covered in that scene
    And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.
    Uruk-hai were hybrids of orcs and men, its something different.
    But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.
    Oh, so orcs are supposed to be an interpretation of vampires now, nice.

  9. #5329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I see you try to keep lying to hold the argument, trying to lecture me about orcs, Dislike the Sun does not mean you are a vampire and you burn from it, neither mean you don't go tog et your prey that is helpless right in front of you that are holding the thing you were looking for
    The quote from Tolkien has Orcs from Moria not wanting to be out in the sun. They are forced to. It isn't a lie to provide you with Tolkien's work. If you actually knew his work as you claim then you wouldn't still be arguing about Orcish dislike of the sun. Tolkien never out right confirms if the sun physically weakens them though he does state over and over that they don't like the sun and can refuse to go out in it unless forced.

    What about this line from the hobbit: "They don't like the sun: it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy."?
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  10. #5330
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

    And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

    But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.
    I mean someone telling you they are going to fuck up doesn't really negate the fact they fucked up...

  11. #5331
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again. The tower where the rings were forged has been shown on the show. It is what Elrond recruited the dwarves to build. It is not the same tower that Arondir was stationed at. Sauron also recruited humans to his army in the second age and the show is exploring that. It hasn't replaced the Eregion story. You keep arguing your own head canon rather then what has been displayed on the show.
    Eregion and the story about how the rings actually get forged will be a completely separate story that takes place later on in other seasons. This is obvious from what the series is showing us. You haven't disputed that. This tower and those characters are a totally brand new made up narrative that is important for this series that has nothing to do with Eregion at all. There has been no connection between this tower, Eregion and those Silvan elves at all in this series. So literally this location as a flashpoint for an orc battle has absolutely nothing to do with Eregion and how the rings of power were created. Which means it is an alternative location separate from Eregion for the purpose of the story that Amazon is telling. So you actually are in agreement.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-21 at 02:46 PM.

  12. #5332
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Eregion and the story about how the rings actually get forged will be a completely separate story that takes place later on in other seasons. This is obvious from what the series is showing us.
    Right. So then the Watchtower in Mordor is not a replacement for Eregion and the forging of the rings as you claimed. Congrats on coming full circle and arguing against your own point. Lmao.
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  13. #5333
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right. So then the Watchtower in Mordor is not a replacement for Eregion and the forging of the rings as you claimed. Congrats on coming full circle and arguing against your own point. Lmao.
    Wrong. Because there was no "other" battle against the Orcs that took place at a tower in an area near what would become Mordor in the original lore. When Sauron entered Eregion as Annatar, his armies were still hidden and his whereabouts as Sauron completely unknown. Everything then took place in Eregion as he showed the Elves how to make the rings of power and then sent his forces to attack and destroy Eregion once he was unmasked. And that was the key turning point in the second age where his presence and threat became known to everyone. So this "other" story separate from Eregion involving a battle in this series is an alternative to focusing entirely on the events at Eregion, so by not focusing on Eregion, it is an alternative to it. By doing this they are effectively saying that Sauron's presence was made clear via this battle prior to the rings of power being created. As such, it means this entire sequence of events is an alternative to all the events primarily taking place within Eregion.

  14. #5334
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Wrong. Because there was no "other" battle against the Orcs that took place at a tower in an area near what would become Mordor in the original lore.
    And? It still doesn't mean it is a replacement for Eregion and Eriador being attacked by Sauron. It is merely displaying another part of Sauron expanding his influence across Middle Earth. It is also hilarious that you are know coming to the conclusion that the show is an alternate sequence of events. Amazon has never hidden that the show is compressing the time line and changing the sequence of events that happen.
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  15. #5335
    That's my understanding of the conversation right now.

    Is the Watchtower arc necessary to the main narrative of Galadriel's quest to unveil Sauron's plot in the Southlands. This is the main theme since the first episode, it's about finding and uncovering a secret plot. The main plot of the first season is in finding evidence that Sauron is still out there.



    Based on what we've seen so far, the Watchtower Arc seems to aim to be the evidence that Galadriel will need to convince the world that Sauron is a true threat to the world.
    What the show is doing right now seems to be building up to an Attack on the Watchtower to become the catalyst for Galadriel to muster forces for a future "War of the Last Alliance". Even if she is not present at the attack, the news of the Orcs showing their hand will be exactly what Galadriel needs.

    With that in mind, is the Southland arc even necessary then to 'emphasize' the main narrative being told by Galadriel's arc? Do we really need to see the 'Attack of the Watchtower'? Galadriel's arc has already shown her to be able to rally forces to investigate the growing evil without even having concrete proof of it existing. All the evidence she currently has is questionable at best (Halbrand could be lying about Orcs, she has no way of confirming the truth of the Spy notes), but the story presents it as being concrete enough to rally the Elf-hating Numenoreans to follow her lead and investigate the Southlands. It's just a matter of time until they find out the truth in the Southlands anyways. The Watchtower itself would be a footnote in her story, one that isn't even needed to confirm what she's already suspecting.

    And the root of this line of thought is in thinking how this all really serves the narrative the show aims to tell, because as pointed out many times, there are very deep problems with narrative progression and pacing and part of this is because there are too many POV arcs in the show to follow.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-21 at 07:23 PM.

  16. #5336
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The quote from Tolkien has Orcs from Moria not wanting to be out in the sun. They are forced to. It isn't a lie to provide you with Tolkien's work. If you actually knew his work as you claim then you wouldn't still be arguing about Orcish dislike of the sun. Tolkien never out right confirms if the sun physically weakens them though he does state over and over that they don't like the sun and can refuse to go out in it unless forced.
    the only lie is you distorting tolkien words to fit yours and the showrunners narrative.

    I never argued they like or they do not like the sun, that is common sense, they being vampires that get hurt in the sun? thats asinine bs that you think somehow it make sense.

    the show already made canon that they can still go out in the sun when Pelégolas cut down their barracks, the show already made canon they can went in the sun to get prisoner who rebel, the show made it canon they can endure the sun if they are covered with cloth, Then they can and should go into the sun to look for the weapon they were looking for for so long

    What about this line from the hobbit: "They don't like the sun: it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy."?
    that for sure what happened in the show, they just got giddy... oh wait, they didn't, it shows they got full on burn, but just when the showrunners think is cool

  17. #5337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the only lie is you distorting tolkien words to fit yours and the showrunners narrative.
    I have not. I have said that orcs do not like the sunlight which is exactly what Tolkien has said. This also started with you complaining that the orcs were afraid of the sun. All you are doing is demonstrating that you are the one lying because you did state they don't like the sun. Of course orcs can go out in the sun. It is that they don't like to go out in the sun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i don't think the arrows missing is a problem, but the orcs being made vampires afraid of the sun not going for then
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  18. #5338
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Of course orcs can go out in the sun. It is that they don't like to go out in the sun.
    Actually, we don't know if the RoP Orcs physically can or not.

    We've only seen one instance of them being exposed to the sunlight without cover, and the show depicts them smoking and wincing in pain. Does that imply they can go out in the sun and they just don't like it? We can't say for sure. The show hasn't depicted it if so.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-21 at 11:57 PM.

  19. #5339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We've only seen one instance of them being exposed to the sunlight without cover, and the show depicts them smoking and wincing in pain. Does that imply they can go out in the sun and they just don't like it? We can't say for sure. The show hasn't depicted it if so.
    It has in episode 3. Orcs out in the sun shoot the elf trying to escape. Others have their face (and what appears to be fingers from fingerless gloves) exposed to the sun with nothing happening. So it is clear that Orcs can go out in the sun. What isn't clear is how much of an effect the sun has given the drastically different reactions we have seen. In one instance the skin burns and in others skin doesn't react.

    Also in the trivia for episode 3 we have "It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun. Some orcs can endure its light better than others, but they all hate it and only seldom will they journey in the open while the Sun shines (Book III, Chapter 4). It references Scene 23 at 21:35.

    Episode 4 also shows an orc running from Theo in the "light". So it may have just been the timing of the bright sun that stopped the orcs and not just day time. As these should be the some of the same orcs that chase them later.

    It could very well be that these orcs are created for the show just like their father, Adar, is. So they might have different properties. Possibly referenced in Episode 2, under trivia, where they note a line from Appendix F "There are many kinds of orcs of differing sizes, best suited for specific purposes. They were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days". This also might indicate that only some of the Orcs burn but not all of them.
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  20. #5340
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I have not. I have said that orcs do not like the sunlight which is exactly what Tolkien has said. This also started with you complaining that the orcs were afraid of the sun. All you are doing is demonstrating that you are the one lying because you did state they don't like the sun. Of course orcs can go out in the sun. It is that they don't like to go out in the sun.
    And not liking the sun does not mean they cannot go there and get the people

    not liking the sun does not mean they are vampires like the show pretend then to be

    If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

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