Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

They keep denying that "Fear of the sun" makes sense or is something Tolkien said. It is like you understand what they are saying but have the need to be contrary so you stop a step short just to keep arguing against something I've said. Vampire and Fear of the sun are two distinct arguments from him and what has been argued is the "afraid of the sun" portion. Not the "burning up vampire" portion.

No, you're just cherrypicking that statement and arguing over nothing.

Again, his point of complaint was over the vampire part and he clarified it to you in a reply, so you continuing this is just you arguing over your own deliberate choice to mince words and argue over nothing important.

As I said, both of you have agreed that Orcs dislike and fear the sun. His statement was about Orcs being depicting as disliking and fearing the sun because it causes physical harm. For you to cherry pick fear of the sun out of context is pointless.

[rhorle]

No, you're just cherrypicking that statement and arguing over nothing.

I am not cherry picking anything. Are you this desperate to be part of a discussion that you'll make up your own argument just to be involved? They keep arguing two different things that fear of the sun doesn't make sense, or fit with tolkien's work, and that the sun damaging them doesn't fit. I've taken issue with one but not the other.

If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

- - - Updated - - -

https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/st...45779921276928

This seems to indicate that the Orcs are different for the show and Adar might not even be allied with Sauron at this point. Also I think the interview linked in the tweet chain references the Orcs wearing baby dragon skin to protect themselves.

We're more of a time when they've kind of come out of Middle-earth, they've been squashed back down underground, and they're spending a lot of time in hiding and caves and tunnels and hidden away. We played on the lighter skin tone, a bit like someone's in the dark all the time. They're hidden away… there’s that whole sunlight thing that we are now beginning to see as they come out and suffering with the bright sun. Just like anyone who's never been exposed to UV, coming out onto the surface and having to deal with their skin's reaction to that. That's where a lot of it came through. So it was… you might say, baby-like. It’s the first birthing of the orcs coming out into the world of Middle-earth, to dominate again. And therefore, with that, comes their skin issues, their skin coloration, and thinner and more sinewy, and less bulky. https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards

So the burning of the skin is "exaggerating" the impact of sunlight after so long away from it. Didn't the orcs have a similar effect when the first sunrise happened? I can find the actual text from Tolkien but some reference burning after never having been in light before. The Orcs are created to be different for the show but still with in the confines of Tolkien's lore.

[Triceron]

I am not cherry picking anything. Are you this desperate to be part of a discussion that you'll make up your own argument just to be involved? They keep arguing two different things that fear of the sun doesn't make sense, or fit with tolkien's work, and that the sun damaging them doesn't fit. I've taken issue with one but not the other.

Tell me Rhorle, how is any of what you're arguing about good discussion?

You're literally just shit posting now. That's what I've been pointing out. I don't need to make up any argument to show this, I've been trying to explain why there's nothing for you to actually argue about here.

Syegfreyd isn't making g a point that they don't fear the sun, he's saying your explanations of how the show depicts Orcs in the situations he's complaining about don't make sense to him for how he thinks they should act. And that's just his opinion. Nothing that implies he's lying, considering you took a statement out of context to imply something he did not actually mean.

And you've even admit this already that the depictions aren't consistent. Sometimes they get hurt by sun, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they fear the sun enough to not go in it, sometimes they aren't bothered. You've used the same explanations as he has to cover why they aren't all 'vampires' and would even go out in the sun if necessary. Yet you can't explain why they didn't at the forest edge when it seemed necessary. I mean, this isn't something you can explain because the show isn't consistent anyways, so no point in trying to turn this around to call people liars on the basis of different opinions. Everyone acknowledges that the Orcs are written to fear the sun, and are doing so in varying levels that aren't completely consistent to one another.

[rhorle]

Everyone acknowledges that the Orcs are written to fear the sun, and are doing so in varying levels that aren't completely consistent to one another.

Everyone? Stop lying. If it is acknowledged by everyone then it would make sense why Orcs would go into the sun in some cases but not others. Because they fear the light. Tolkien himself has shown that sometimes they fear it more then others. The show has shown this. If you want good discussion then stop devolving into personal attacks just because you have no actual argument to back up any claims. Stop being a white knight for another poster just because I am the one countering them.

[Triceron]

Everyone? Stop lying. If it is acknowledged by everyone then it would make sense why Orcs would go into the sun in some cases but not others. Because they fear the light. Tolkien himself has shown that sometimes they fear it more then others. The show has shown this. If you want good discussion then stop devolving into personal attacks just because you have no actual argument to back up any claims. Stop being a white knight for another poster just because I am the one countering them.

Yes and Syegfryed already addressed this.

"I never argued they like or they do not like the sun, that is common sense, they being vampires that get hurt in the sun? thats asinine bs that you think somehow it make sense."

So like I said... what are you actually arguing about here?

I don't even agree with Syegfryed's assessment. All I'm doing is pointing out how you're shitposting and arguing for no reason. It's quite hypocritical for someone who says he wants to foster good discussion when you're clearly on the attack to anyone for the sake of arguing. It's pointless dude, Syeg isn't even arguing that Orcs don't fear the sun. You just can't fucking read lol.

[rhorle]

Yes and Syegfryed already addressed this.

If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

Which he contradicts by saying that fear is bullshit and Tolkien's view isn't displaying a fear that sometimes has them go into the sun and sometimes has them reluctant to go int he sun. Which is one of the reasons why Tolkien created the Uruk-hai. Orcs that didn't have that weakness physical or psychological.

The only one that displays they want to argue for no good reason is yourself. Stop projecting and derailing discussions with your constant need to put me down. You started off this discussion with good discussion until I overwhelmingly pointed out how you were wrong. Then you devolved into attacks.

[Triceron]

Which he contradicts by saying that fear is bullshit and Tolkien's view isn't displaying a fear that sometimes has them go into the sun and sometimes has them reluctant to go int he sun.

There is no contradiction. You've admitted that sometimes they fear the sun sometimes they don't. There's nothing for you to argue, you both understand the same facts here.

His only point of contention is them taking physical damage from the sun, which is what the show uses to imply their fear of the sun when it's convenient. That's it.

The only one that displays they want to argue for no good reason and shit post is yourself. You even called yourself a shit poster previously. Stop projecting and derailing discussions with your constant need to put me down to make yourself feel superior. You started off this discussion with good discussion until I overwhelmingly pointed out how you were wrong. Then you devolved into attacks and white knighting another poster.

DUde, I've been blatant about calling you out for shit-posting. I'm not the one on the crusade of 'exposing people for false criticisms'. I'm bringing you down a few notches to realize you're in the mud with everyone else. And frankly, your argument doesn't even make sense here, so it's not even like you've got anything to argue about. So maybe chill out.

[rhorle]

His only point of contention is them taking physical damage from the sun, which is what the show uses to imply their fear of the sun when it's convenient. That's it.

If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

It is not his only contention as that quote clearly indicates. I also provided evidence that it isn't just to indicate their fear of the sun but to indicate that they have been "in the shadows" for so long the sun burns them. It is also why they are paler then other depictions. The fear of the sun is present regardless of them being burned or not which is why even when covered they are still shown to be hesitant.

[InfiniteCharger]

And? It still doesn't mean it is a replacement for Eregion and Eriador being attacked by Sauron. It is merely displaying another part of Sauron expanding his influence across Middle Earth. It is also hilarious that you are know coming to the conclusion that the show is an alternate sequence of events. Amazon has never hidden that the show is compressing the time line and changing the sequence of events that happen.

It is not displaying something if that something never happened originally. It is an alternate story because this is an alternate universe. It cannot be both the same and different at the same time. Sauron and his forces cannot both be hidden and unknown and present and attacking at the same time. It is one or the other. This whole story about the tower is a replacement for all the events primarily taking place at Eregion related to the rings of power and this series is called "Rings of Power". So if they are not focusing on Eregion and how Sauron appeared there as Annatar, while he and his forces were hidden and unknown, by introducing a new made up story about a tower and Sauron's forces appearing there to be the site of a huge battle, it is literally a replacement for the original story as written by Tolkien centered on Eregion.

[rhorle]

This whole story about the tower is a replacement for all the events primarily taking place at Eregion related to the rings of power

And yet you said those would be shown in a later season. Strange how something is both replaced and not replaced, right? The outpost in Mordor is just that. A small outpost with one tower. It isn't meant to replace the forging of the rings of power. You also conviently forget that Galadriel is on her way with an Army. The time line is compressed so of course different story threads that took place over thousands of years will be taking place at the same time. Again, duh.

Sauron just wasn't known to the elves in the second age. He began building his forces, and corrupting men, prior to the rings being forged. The whole ring plot was because he wanted followers that had the power of elves. Something that wasn't quite the case with all the orcs, humans, and other dark servants.

[InfiniteCharger]

And yet you said those would be shown in a later season. Strange how something is both replaced and not replaced, right? The outpost in Mordor is just that. A small outpost with one tower. It isn't meant to replace the forging of the rings of power. You also conviently forget that Galadriel is on her way with an Army. The time line is compressed so of course different story threads that took place over thousands of years will be taking place at the same time. Again, duh.

Sauron just wasn't known to the elves in the second age. He began building his forces, and corrupting men, prior to the rings being forged. The whole ring plot was because he wanted followers that had the power of elves. Something that wasn't quite the case with all the orcs, humans, and other dark servants.

Which this story about the tower is a replacement for the story of Eregion as told in the lore of the second age. You keep trying to make it seem like this is hard to understand when it isn't. The tower and any battle there never existed in the original story of the rings of power and is not relevant to it. Therefore, having this completely made up tower as a core part of this series shows it is a replacement for the actual story of the rings of power as a completely different sequence of events. Sauron never had a major battle at what would become Mordor before the creation of the rings of power because having that battle would have exposed his plot and presence to the world, making his deception in Eregion almost impossible. So literally this sequence of events cannot be the same as the books because the fundamental elements that make the story work in the books has been changed because it is being replaced with a totally different sequence of events and situations that cause the rings of power to be created in a different way.

[Kumorii]

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards

We're more of a time when they've kind of come out of Middle-earth, they've been squashed back down underground, and they're spending a lot of time in hiding and caves and tunnels and hidden away. We played on the lighter skin tone, a bit like someone's in the dark all the time. They're hidden away… there’s that whole sunlight thing that we are now beginning to see as they come out and suffering with the bright sun. Just like anyone who's never been exposed to UV, coming out onto the surface and having to deal with their skin's reaction to that. That's where a lot of it came through. So it was… you might say, baby-like. It’s the first birthing of the orcs coming out into the world of Middle-earth, to dominate again. And therefore, with that, comes their skin issues, their skin coloration, and thinner and more sinewy, and less bulky.

Haha... The same arguments people used for why Disa is black. They are underground, from the sun, little or no UV. So they used that as an excuse for Orcs to be white, but it's a bogus/racist argument when it comes to the dwarfs?

You can't make this shit up... goddamn.

[Triceron]

It is not his only contention as that quote clearly indicates. I also provided evidence that it isn't just to indicate their fear of the sun but to indicate that they have been "in the shadows" for so long the sun burns them. It is also why they are paler then other depictions. The fear of the sun is present regardless of them being burned or not which is why even when covered they are still shown to be hesitant.

Yeah but your explanation doesn't make his argument wrong. That's the difference.

He hasn't argued that they don't fear the sun. He said your explanation doesn't make sense to him, because if your explanation was that only some fear the sun then implies that there are some who do not. And his argument above is saying that those ones who didn't fear it could still be shown going out. But that's not the case at all, and they're all shown to stop at the forest edge with none choosing to take a step into the light at all. And he views that as being due to the show depicting them being unable to.

Considering no one can be confirmed right or wrong since this is all a matter of interpretation, there's no real point in arguing. Cuz honestly, you can't even confirm if the show is choosing to depict them as merely fearing the sun at that moment, or strategically choosing not to pursue knowing the risks, or whether they're completely unable to because these are the 'burn-in-the-sun' type of Orcs who will suffer in sunlight. It's not a scenario that anyone can confirm, so as I said, no point in arguing it as though anyone can be right or wrong. It's just a matter of interpreting things differently. He's rejecting the alternative perspective that you're trying to push on him as a means of explanation. He's not 'denying Tolkien', he's rejecting your specific interpretation of Tolkien's description of Orcs and how you're applying it back to the show. It doesn't mean your interpretation is wrong either, just that it's unconfirmable and unreasonable to his own interpretation.

Because let's face it, there isn't any one way to explain what's going on in the show. It's clearly inconsistent and they haven't done a good job of building a world that makes sense. Everything that happens is at the convenience of the show really.

[rhorle]

Which this story about the tower is a replacement for the story of Eregion as told in the lore of the second age.

How can it replace something that will happen later in the series? You even stated it will happen later. That means it isn't a replacement but just an additional story thread. The series is a different sequence of events even with out the tower because they are compressing the timeline into a few hundred years. From Thousands to Hundreds. So of course the sequence of events are different from the books. Again, duh.

It is also silly to call the Watchtower a "major battle" when it is One elf and a handful of humans. We don't even know if Adar and his orcs are connected to Sauron at this point. So it doesn't automatically have to reveal to the world that Sauron is back because Orcs never went away completely. Even Tolkien had Orcs not following Sauron because of his disquise. So these could be those "independant" orcs wanting their own territory after seeing others doing stuff. It also doesn't mean that Annatar would be seen with more suspicion just because Orcs are making trouble. Besides Galadriel is sailing to Middle-Earth with an army to defeat Saruon. So her arc would be more of a replacement then Arondir's yet you haven't argued that. Strange, right?

You are focused on elevating an outpost with a tower into some greater meaning.

[MCMLXXXII]

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards




Haha... The same arguments people used for why Disa is black. They are underground, from the sun, little or no UV. So they used that as an excuse for Orcs to be white, but it's a bogus/racist argument when it comes to the dwarfs?

You can't make this shit up... goddamn.

While it looks contradicting, did the show clarify if Dhisa was from the same tribe/clan?

[Kumorii]

While it looks contradicting, did the show clarify if Dhisa was from the same tribe/clan?

They haven't mentioned anything about it from what I can remember. Doubt they will because as I mentioned, they've said it's just racist... no need for justification is what I take that as. Could be wrong though.

Would be weird if people get attacked for asking for a justification just like that. One that would explain it, and then turn around and do the same thing they claimed was racist.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards




Haha... The same arguments people used for why Disa is black. They are underground, from the sun, little or no UV. So they used that as an excuse for Orcs to be white, but it's a bogus/racist argument when it comes to the dwarfs?

You can't make this shit up... goddamn.

By this same argument through you’d have to say every dwarf should be just as white as the orcs any darker shade being ok under such rules and any such limit is obviously gonna be bias in one way or another.

[Kumorii]

By this same argument through you’d have to say every dwarf should be just as white as the orcs any darker shade being ok under such rules and any such limit is obviously gonna be bias in one way or another.

Sure, I'm not making arguments for who should look like what... just pointing out the hypocrisy tbh. That's all there is to it.
You can't say it's wrong or bad to use an argument to question or justify certain skin colors and then use the same argument to justify another certain skin color.

well you can, but you look like an idiot tbh.

[Triceron]

You are focused on elevating an outpost with a tower into some greater meaning.

No, it's being pointed out that the show is putting greater meaning into this event because it will be the first time the Orcs show their hand, and because the show is literally devoting 1/3rd of its first season content to this one outpost with a tower.

I mean, the way the show seems to be going, it looks like they're gonna not only compress the timeline, but use the same super-travel time dilation that put Orc-victimized Southlanders in the middle of the ocean where Galadriel is. This same time-travel shenanigans will mean the show writers could place Galadriel and the Numenoreans back into the Southlands in time to fight at the Watchtower, if they wanted to.

[tikcol]

The orcs could be red for all I care. The problem is the lack of consistency which once again proves the show is poorly written. This is just a drop in a watterfall of bullshit