Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[s_bushido]

The marketing made people think this would've been faithful. It isn't. And people are upset about it.

Name some ways that it is unfaithful, and I can pretty much guarantee that any other adaptation will feature the same things.

[minteK917]

I dont think the question is when ever its a adaptation or not lol. The problem is this adaptation choose to waste its fucking time on stuff it made up for no reason like the wannabe hobbits, instead of the best part that are now never gona be shown on screen. After how they shit on numenor and we know we wont get any of their best moment in this show after 5 episodes, thats why it sucks. You can adapt things, but if you are gona remove all the best moment to make shit up, why even adapt this in the first place?

[Skayth]

After finishing the fourth episode, I can say with confidence the show is okay. Has some great scenes, and some horrible scenes (orcs shown one second being great bowman, the next being stormtroopers).

The show is growing on me, and I plan to watch the next 2 episodes this weekend. Galadriel is op, but so is legolas from the films. The issue I have is specifically that "she is always right." But whatever. Funny enough, I think the guy she is with halden or whatever, the fake aragorn, is probably sauron. Bin the beginning the elves stated that she and sauron are linked, and that if she is on middle earth, the sauron will rise. Well. She jumped ship last second, and joined halden, thus joining together.

All the other sauron wannabes seem to be there just to pull away from that little knowledge.

[Syegfryed]

Name some ways that it is unfaithful, and I can pretty much guarantee that any other adaptation will feature the same things.

This isn't a binary matter but gradient, you cannot possible make a point that "other adaptions aren't 100% faithful either so this is fine"

Other adaptions unfaithful as this one are garbage too

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So what is your point? Why did you respond when I posted that it wasn't canon if you don't disagree then?

Defenders of the show, like the show itself, don't make sense either

[s_bushido]

After how they shit on numenor and we know we wont get any of their best moment in this show after 5 episodes, thats why it sucks.

...what?

What "best moments" do you think we should have gotten but haven't yet?

[Kumorii]

Name some ways that it is unfaithful, and I can pretty much guarantee that any other adaptation will feature the same things.

What does other shows have to do with their own marketing? If other shows did bad marketing jobs, it only shows they did bad marketing as well...

[s_bushido]

What does other shows have to do with their own marketing? If other shows did bad marketing jobs, it only shows they did bad marketing as well...

Because the complaint: "it's bad marketing because they said they'd be faithful" is essentially meaningless when the creators of basically all adaptations claim that they're staying faithful to the source material. You might as well be whining about it being bad marketing when actors talk about how good the project was in interviews for something you ended up not liking. It's asinine.

Specific issues with the show would be much more useful to talk about than vague nonsense like "it's unfaithful." Because what is or is not faithful is going to vary from person to person.

[Kumorii]

Because the complaint: "it's bad marketing because they said they'd be faithful" is essentially meaningless when the creators of basically all adaptations claim that they're staying faithful to the source material. You might as well be whining about it being bad marketing when actors talk about how good the project was in interviews for something you ended up not liking. It's asinine.

Specific issues with the show would be much more useful to talk about than vague nonsense like "it's unfaithful." Because what is or is not faithful is going to vary from person to person.

Yeah and it's bad when it happens and ofc people will be annoyed or irritated about it and judge accordingly.

I can give you an example of the Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor games.
They never went out of their way to talk about how faithful their games would be. Did people still complain at times at certain things? Yes, but there's no ground for those complaints. You heard very little of it overall.

Payne and McKay didn't. They talked about how faithful they would be and how important it was to get things right etc etc... So of course they will be under more scrutiny when it comes out to things they've changed.

They using proper marketing would lead to less backlash. That would lead to a bit less of hype though, so in another sense it's good marketing to do what they did. People will be annoyed though.

[InfiniteCharger]

Defenders of the show, like the show itself, don't make sense either

Defenders just like to make false equivalences in comparing this to the films.
This show is almost completely made up and not literally based on anything Tolkien actually wrote.
So it isn't even an adaptation. The dialog, many of the characters, events and narratives are completely made up.
By claiming it is an "adaptation" they are claiming it is taking a story with dialog, events, characters and just adapting it.
So it cannot even be compared to the movies because those are based on books with all those things.
The appendices don't have any dialog, only a summary of events and the names of some characters.
Everything else is completely made up.

[s_bushido]

I think the one thing everyone agrees on, at least, is that the dwarves are fantastic.

Cut to 50 pages of arguing about how much of a travesty and an insult to the memory of Tolkien it is that the dwarf ladies don't have beards.

Christ...what have I done?

[babalou1]

Cut to 50 pages of arguing about how much of a travesty and an insult to the memory of Tolkien it is that the dwarf ladies don't have beards.

Christ...what have I done?

I am a little disappointed lmao

[rogueMatthias]

I think the one thing everyone agrees on, at least, is that the dwarves are fantastic. And that's probably it lol

Yeah I think without question Durin and Elrond's friendship friendship and the other dwarves are the saving grace of the show.

I'm not entirely sure how much sense their storyline makes though. The king Elve clearly knew without any doubt that Durin had discovered Mithrill, long before sending Elrond in to see if they'd discovered Mithrill. If he thought that Elrond might better be able to convince Durin to help then that should have been the story from the start.

[roahn the warlock]

it's a giant missed opportunity
at this point is nothing more than fan fiction, it has NOTHING of Tolkien's works but the names of the characters and places
timeline is totally messed up (the elven rings were forged much earlier than Isildur's birth), and no character or race is coherent with Tolkien's original characterization and spirit

and once you accept the fact that this has nothing to do with Tolkien canon, you think you can enjoy an one billion show?
no, and that's the worst part!
this show just sucks on every levels because of terrible writing and terrible acting, specially Galadriel being played by an inconceivably awful actress
everybody does stupid things, nothing is coherent, the plot is non-sense, and you end up wondering how is it possible to waste such an opportunity for a great show

music and visuals are wonderful, but that's it, this is one of the most disappointing shows ever made

Did you bitch as much when LOTR didn't make sure to film the 30 odd years before Frodo left the shire? Like make the movie 10 films long with the first 4 being Frodo and the gang hanging out and smoking pipes.

Like ya'll are whiney. If you have an issue with a 3000 year story being compressed, you come up with a better solution.

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Defenders just like to make false equivalences in comparing this to the films.
This show is almost completely made up and not literally based on anything Tolkien actually wrote.
So it isn't even an adaptation. The dialog, many of the characters, events and narratives are completely made up.
By claiming it is an "adaptation" they are claiming it is taking a story with dialog, events, characters and just adapting it.
So it cannot even be compared to the movies because those are based on books with all those things.
The appendices don't have any dialog, only a summary of events and the names of some characters.
Everything else is completely made up.

The second age is 20 pages in the silmarillion, lol.

[Gumble]

Down with pointy ears!

This show.... it is almost to the point of make me as a Wheen of Time fan feel bad for you guys.

[bledgor]

Did you bitch as much when LOTR didn't make sure to film the 30 odd years before Frodo left the shire? Like make the movie 10 films long with the first 4 being Frodo and the gang hanging out and smoking pipes.

Like ya'll are whiney. If you have an issue with a 3000 year story being compressed, you come up with a better solution.

I mean there is a massive difference between nothing much happening for 30 years and 3000 years of history with massive things going on, like creation of the rings, the rise and fall of Numenor, the wakening of the Balrog, the last alliance of elf and man, etc.

As for how, you just have to accept you will have to recast/new cast/time skip 1-2 times a season while you have down time between the big events.

They wanted an elf lead (I think Elrond or Celebrian would have been better), follow them as they make friendships with mortals during these times only to watch them grow old and fade, and give audiences a view into why Elves act the way they do as they are so longed lived that they have seen a lot, and experienced a lot. Doing so allows the director to do some fun things, like hint at the reincarnation aspect of the Durin line (have him act the same when interacting with Celebrimbor, the dwarf friend), to revisit old places and show the growth/decay of man/elf. You can even have small examples of the rise of Sauron placed in things like rot in a forest growing in between time skips this way.

The biggest issues with the show to me are the fact they paraded before it was released how faithful it was going to be when that isn't true, the AWFUL dialogue and story (be it actual beats or pacing), and the fact we had the potential of a Tolkien story with a $60 million dollar an episode budget and it is so at best mediocre.

If I pretend this show isn't supposed to be Tolkien, and just look at it from a fantasy perspective, it still isn't an amazing show. Yes it looks great, and the music is good, but other than that it has nothing special, and the rest is pretty bad, a 5/10 at best.

Down with pointy ears!

This show.... it is almost to the point of make me as a Wheen of Time fan feel bad for you guys.

Don't forget such amazing lines like "I have a temptest inside me", or "give me the meat and give it to me raw".

[Biomega]

If I pretend this show isn't supposed to be Tolkien, and just look at it from a fantasy perspective, it still isn't an amazing show.

That's really what killed it for me.

I was never super invested in source-accuracy to begin with. All I wanted was a good show, and I wasn't fussed at all about how close it was to the original materials. But the show just sucks on its face value - the writing, acting, pacing are all terribly off. Yes the vistas are gorgeous, but that's about it. Heck aside from that, the cinematography isn't good at all (hi there, 1980s horse-riding slow-mo).

It's a failure on every level even OUTSIDE of how good an adaptation of an existing story it is.

[rhorle]

So what is your point? Why did you respond when I posted that it wasn't canon if you don't disagree then?

I was pointing out the absurdity of you inventing an argument over the show being canon. If the show is made up because something doesn't appear in canon then of course the show will not be canon. Lol. It is crazy how often people that hate the show bring up canon in their arguments when no one in this thread tries to argue that the show is canon.

How can a made up story be canonical when the entire reason it is made up is because it wasn't in the canon? lol.

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So it isn't trying to "adapt" anything versus telling their own story but having the "rights" to use certain characters and names from Tolkien.

So they are adapting the stuff they have the rights to but at the same time not adapting those things to create a show? Lmao.

[Mace]

The way a book writer writes is also not always going to hold up for a film/tv series either, anyone expecting tolkien was expecting way too much because hes dead and its impossible to do a film/tv series the same as a book either.

Also the author has not explained every single detail about everything in the LOTR world so there is plenty that is up for changing to suit the requirements for a tv/film series.

The quote you posted has nothing to do with adapting to todays world views, its actually about showing what middle earth looked like in that age, nothing to do with racial casting or anything like that, if you find a suitable actor that can fill the role nothing else matters, especially since not everything is set in stone by tolkiens own words.

Absolutely write, Peter Jackson's movies , mostly greatly loved are a perfect example of this, many creative liberties can and often need to be taken, which they did, which tolkien never said or wrote and somtimes actually changed what he did say or write, but but many of those changes were more for moving from book to screen .. Rings of power do more than that with their changes, they change Tolkien - Jackson was very faithful to Tolkien's ideals or, world view etc, anddidn't make changes to "reflect the world today" or promote his own beliefs, he wanted to do Tolkien's story.

Peter Jackson
"We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyze what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves."

The showrunners of RoP, did the opposite, not only were their the usually modifications and adaptations needed to go screen, but they put their own politics and messaging and own themes into RoP, and they think it's amazing - thing is, not everyone shares their views, but whether your views and world view were different from Tolkien, everyone loved Tolkien's, everyone loved his work - and that's what they wanted to see.

So when you change it, surprsie surprsie that people feel it's not Middle Earth, or not Tolkien's work, they're not merely talkinga bout minor changes made from going from book format to a film - it's the core vein of the world and the stories. And those are massive changes

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If they can't use something then they can't be faithful, right? For example I remember seeing that in the Hobbit movies Gandalf couldn't name the Blue Wizards when asked about them because Jackson didn't have the rights to use them in the film. While they weren't named in the book the film was based on it is an example of how rights can impact even small things.

Also isn't some of the work the show is based on "established" by his son? So some of it is already a step removed from JRR Tolkien. So there really isn't a way to actually be faithful unless you just use the stuff that was published just by JRR.

Don't assume the complaint is not being strictly faithful to the letter of the work, the complaint is that this isn't recognisably Tolkien's world because they've changed the politics, messaging and world view it's based on.


IT will never be or feel Tolkien if you do that, no matter if you make everything else accurate to the molecule. It may have been liked despite being different some feel if the story was better.. but the changes just desecrate the man's work - it's hard to even like their story.

So now high elves are going around being sly and cheap like devious humans - as if the show runners have no concept to see what distinguished is, because such concepts don't exist in their world view perhaps? or mean something entirely different to them.. well if you're going to use Tolkien and call it Lord of the Rings etc, you kinda should stick to it being exactly that.


As I said before, this is not some low class semi popular work, this is one of the world's most loved books and famous ones, you' might get away with it for other works, might, but you won't when you do it for such a high profile masterpiece. Most Brits are positively insulted by what they've done. And it's not a judgement of the ideology and messaging they've injected, , it is so universally disliked because they changed Tolkien's system, as i said, regardless whether you believe or agree with Tolkien's world view, you show his story and his messaging because everything is set up that way.

You don't start changing elves into angsty humans, puffing up and completely changing female characters from what the original story wrote them to be because you have to pass the Bechtel test and promote your intersectional beliefs or ideology.. you could have and believe all those things and still genuinely put forth Tolkien's work that his world view is tightly integral with. This is what Peter Jackson and his crew did, and Ic an assure you very flew of them hold to Tolkien's beliefs, but despite having vastly different opinions and world views, they all loved his work and sought to recreate it faithfully.

These showrunners did not, they thought to message us and change his work, and it's junky, people wanted to see Tolkien's world reflected, not their own.

Their sheer arrogance to think that this is what everyone wants all the time, and incapable of actually believing that someone doesn't have to have his real life or identity reflected in a film before he would either enjoy or relate to it. Sheesh.. if all films were like that?

This is why Hollywood has that very same feel to it on a lot of their stuff, because they're all following and preaching the same messaging.

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It's so wild that you think it's "ideology" if showrunners think they're "changing race in a good way," but see none in your objection that it's "changing race in a bad way," and similarly assume Tolkein wasn't operating on "ideology" when he made characters white. It would truly be a thing of beauty if the next time people collapsed and clawed their their chests over the inclusion of black people, while pretending it's fidelity to the work of fantasy they're upset about (it's about ethics in film adaptations!), that they replace every single white character with a person of color and call it a fucking day. What astonishes me--and it's not the casual racism because that's as tedious and run of the mill as it gets--is the absolute utter stinginess of people who just can't bear to share a single goddamn shred of joy with anyone else.

My point is about their ideology, not about race changing - as a black gay person, I think I understand the difference. Tolkien has a world view and an ideology, we all do, , but you can like someone else's work immensely even if you don't share their world view or beliefs, you can appreciate a great story.

You then want to see that story, I don't need to see my current 21st century world or politics reflected in everything. When i come to watch Tolkien ii like his work so i want to see things the way he saw them. I can appreciate people who are different from me, i don't' expect them to change to me or change to reflect me, there different stat is interesting and unique and when it's good i like to see it.

Everyone and everything doesn't have to be the same as me.

If you are doing Tolkien's work and Tolkien's world your audience will expect his world, reflecting his ideals and world view, not yours.


They have changed things in this series, because they are injecting their world view and messaging.. this is why Galadriel has to behave just so, and this character that character so, this is why elves, behave like so where they are very different in Tolkien's work.






Look they can do what they want, and they clearly did, just realise that most people who like Tolkien want to see Tolkien's work reflected, not a cocky show runner's view of the world or how they think the world should be. They can go write their own fantasy for that, and their are plenty others who around that follow that world view - don't kid yourself to think their won't be backlash if you change one of the world's most popular fantasy books to fit your US urban left wing view of things- and expect everyone to be happy. - You'd piss off everyone on your right, everyone who doesn't share your views, not only that, you'd piss up people like me who mostly share a less extreme version of your views, not because of the views, but because you changed Tolkien's work which is what you sold it to me as - I came to see Tolkein's world reflected and stories expanded, not changed and bastardised or coopted version so naturally this disappoints

[InfiniteCharger]

I was pointing out the absurdity of you inventing an argument over the show being canon. If the show is made up because something doesn't appear in canon then of course the show will not be canon. Lol. It is crazy how often people that hate the show bring up canon in their arguments when no one in this thread tries to argue that the show is canon.

So if it isn't canon and you agree then why are you still going on about it? Sounds like you want it both ways.
And specifically this series is literally not how Tolkien imagined and wrote the Rings of Power being created.
And that is the fundamental point. If you like the show and want to defend it then fine, but that also means defending the fact that it is its own thing. There is nothing wrong with that.

So they are adapting the stuff they have the rights to but at the same time not adapting those things to create a show? Lmao.

They are telling their own story loosely based on characters and settings from the 2nd age and are not calling it an adaptation.
It says so itself at the end of every episode. Again, if you agree it isn't canon and is its own thing then what is the point?
You are in agreement. It being its own thing and not canon does not make it "good" or "bad" as that is up to individual opinion.

[Mace]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.. most people around the world hate it, yet they are all represented - so by their logic we should love it. You are just thinking the racists don't love it, but you're blind to all the other flaws and are not listening to the other reasons other people don't think much of it.


Do you think they're that many racists? Do you think the issue is really just because an elf is made black and there is a black dwarf/ Do you think that is what i mean by Tolkien's world view and ideology.. sigh if you do, then you lack understanding.

Do you even know the messaging and ideology the show runners hold to, you need to know that so you can positively identify what it is, you don't need to know it necessarily to be able to notice it is different, but it will help you articulate and see this is far beyond race.

But it doesn't stop at ideology changes, I have admitted I like it some what, but it's not Tolkien, yet there is a lot about it that is badly done, from plot, characters, acting, etc, some good things too, there are so many issues people don't like about it that it has drowned out all the positives that could have helped.


But this is Lord of the Rings you're making, not some random superhero movie or some random author - you are taking the world's finest fantasy and most acclaimed fantasy writer's work,, and you think you can just bring it forward with your world view and not his, change far more than you need to to reflect today's world and thin people will love it just because they're represented, and just go lazy on the story, ruin your characters (which i firmly believe part of the reason Galadriel is so unlikeable is because she is a product of their ideology not Tolkien's work you have to have female lead, according that ideology, and she has to be so, can't have this and that happen to her etc.. it's called the Bechtel test, and only people of a certain ideology care about that, and they change characters and works to reflect their world view, when people have to watch Tolkien's world

when you do that, you honestly expect people to like your stuff.. really? suppress their comments and their negative reviews, pretend that everyone likes it, lie about your audience views and scores try all your skills at manipulating perception.. at the end of the day, people watch it and they see what they see, no matter how much you spin it, this isn't Tolkien and they should have made Tolkien's based Rings of Power reflecting Tolkien's races and characters, not changing them to fit you ideology.

And trust me, Galadriel, Muriel and the harfoots are not that way because of licensing.. what a joke, they are the way they are because of ideology of the show runners injecting their beliefs and politics rather than the author of the world which most people love)'s own view and own work. But then how arrogant you must be to think your version would be better and more loved than a globally loved author with highest publishing count/book sales probably second only to the bible in recorded history.

Such arrogance.

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Show is badly written too.. but that is relatively speaking.. to the trash we tend to get these days, it's no bad, but compared to Tolkien, who you are trying to have it fit in as part of his work, it is terrible, and not even close. - but I have no sympathy, arrogant people, fell they are better always. Pride goes before a fall, it seriously does.

I will watch the series, enjoy as a middle range okay story (for the aggregate of stuff that comes out), that's got pretty pictures, abut not Tolkien, yet every time I see them do silly things that are just so against or so not Tolkien's way I can't help but sigh, I wonder now if there would be enough of these to out weigh my propensity to watch junk.

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I mean you want this to storm the world.. you are goingt o have to do more than have an astonishingly good set, graphics and music score.

You need great, actors, a great plot and a great story - and it doesn't have that, by a long shot.

worse, is that because it's the Lord of the Rings, because it's Tolkien, anything that doesn't measure up or come close, is like basically drawing on Da Vinci's paintings thinking you can improve them or adding to them but with your own style and saying - this is a genuine continuation or extension of Da Vinci's work - such arrogance