Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[bledgor]

As an example, you could say a movie making $500m box office is successful; but if that's a marvel movie with a star-studded lineup and hundreds of millions in budget, that's not actually a success. Whereas if that's an independent film shot by a debut director on a two million dollar art grant, it's a success beyond imagination.

Any number of ways of measuring "success" can be used and yield different results for different projects. In terms of absolute numbers, I'm sure RoP pulled in a viewership that for most shows would be considered a success; but this is not just ANY show, it's a show with extremely high expectations, and an extremely high budget. Ignoring that by simply regurgitating absolute numbers obscures highly important facts.

And then there's also the expectations on the side of the producers. A project can be critically AND financially "successful", and yet still disappoint the expectations of the producers. It sounds silly to call something that, say, makes $100m profit and wins awards a "failure", but if the studio went in hoping to make $500m profit and win more awards, that could well be a disappointing performance.

It's all relative to how you're looking at it. There's few if any magic threshold numbers in the absolute.

For my part it goes along the lines of 3 things:

1. Does it make enough money to justify it, because while yes Amazon has money to spare if the show is consistently losing money that means it is either massively wasting money or not getting near enough viewership to justify spending the money on it vs other shows.

2. How is the reception of the show? This is a much harder to measure statistic as there are like you said a variety of measurements for it, be it the actual viewership (which we can really only speculate about), the amount of secondary product it drives consumers to buy/view (a much worse stat for amazon because unless purchased/watched on their website they aren't getting money for games/toys/etc), and the general buzz/talk about the show (be it online or in person). The last one is also fairly hard to measure as you can't get a number for person to person talk/watercooler talk about the show, but the online buzz for the show was IIRC 10% of HotD, a direct competitor for the fantasy genre and what Bozo himself said he wanted to create/beat.

3. Finally pride/quality of the art created. This one is another that is hard to properly measure as some shows/movies people love and others people hate. It in part is related to the other two as well, as money/talk can certainly point to quality, though it isn't always the case. Sometimes shows/movies that are masterpieces never make the money/name they deserve, but at least people can respect the work still. For me a good example of this (that also happens to be adaptation) is Dredd. The movie was fantastically made, enjoyable throughout, and captured the essence of the source. Yet the movie lost money, and while it has an okay cult following, it didn't drive press/talk. Rings of Power other than the CGI doesn't really drive people to love it, it doesn't have that "It" factor to make something about it immortal/have a cult following. Even the people I know that enjoyed it didn't have a thing about it that they loved, they just enjoyed it. As soon as another pretty show comes around it will be largely forgotten.

So TLDR with the show having an amazing/immensely well known source, the largest budget for a show ever, and one of the easiest/best value subscription/methods of access, what we got was not a rousing or even good success, heck personally I see if as a massive failure. However even if I view it subjectively I wouldn't be happy with the results if I was amazon, as the show was given a diamond spoon and produced results you can get from much cheaper shows like Reacher.

[Triceron]

You don't think other shows that do stuff isn't pre-planned and part of marketting? A speech at a industry conference is "marketing"? Why does it matter if it is pre-recorded or not if it was being done remotely?

Very few shows address rumors like we are getting now. Numbers from Nielsen haven't even had a full week of the season finale and you are already asking for them to discuss it. They also rarely have done such for their past show. Do you have an actual link to Amazon talking about The Boys right after the season ended? I can't find a press release and google just shows articles talking about Nielsen or season premiere comments by Amazon.

I didn't criticize their marketting, I criticized their lack of addressing the supposed success this show had, since that's what we're calling it right? Everything in the marketting covers news and interviews, regardless of whether the show did well or not.

If you're linking to stuff that's pre-recorded and interviews that are part of an official podcast that obviously will have a final episode that is released after the finale is already out, then you're not really addressing anything I'm talking about.

All you're being is dishonest as fuck and replying to my comments without addressing anything I've actually said, really. Arguing with yourself again.

[rhorle]

All you're being is dishonest as fuck and replying to my comments without addressing anything I've actually said, really. Arguing with yourself again.

So I take it you turning to insults and the usual derailment of discussion means you won't be providing a source to these times Amazon has done it in the past? I've addressed the things you've said. You don't like them. A speech at an industry conference live or remote/recorded is not "standard show marketing" no matter how much you want to claim it is.

If you are going to get so upset at being asked to provide a source please put me back on ignore.

[DingDongKing]

I haven't watched the show, but I find the unhealthy obsession with the show by some of its detractors to be quite amusing.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I haven't watched the show, but I find the unhealthy obsession with the show by some of its detractors to be quite amusing.

It has "Lord of the Rings" in the name, what did you expect? Same thing with the new "Star Wars" trilogy. There's a huge fanbase that loves these franchises, to see it treated like shit will obviously make people very mad.

[Shadowferal]

The Fall of Númenor is redundant but beautiful Brian Sibley's editorial work deserves some praise too. Rather than bring an academic on board, the Tolkien Estate were wise to select a storyteller of Sibley's calibre for this project, which requires a deft touch to build a narrative out of the disparate elements of Tolkien's Second Age writings. Sibley, who is best known among Tolkien fans for his work on the 1981 BBC radio adaptation of The Lord of the Rings, has constructed his narrative by following the chronology of the Second Age laid down by Tolkien in 'The Tale of Years.' Using this framework, he drops each fragment of Second Age material into its corresponding place within the timeline. It's a straightforward approach, but it works; it brings a Biblical grandeur to Tolkien's fictional history, beginning with the genesis of Númenor, its people, its flora and its fauna, before structuring the rest of the narrative around the genealogies of the island's Kings and Queens.

The Fall of Númenor and The Rings of Power
Of course, the motivation for producing such a volume is inextricably tied to the new Amazon TV series The Rings of Power, which is set in this period and just finished streaming its first series. Rings is the elephant in the room. It goes unmentioned both by Sibley in his introductory matter and by HarperCollins in their press release announcing the book.

Despite this lack of direct acknowledgement, the connection is certain to guarantee sales for The Fall of Númenor, though it will likely be unsatisfying to those who are coming to it as fans of the TV show alone. The book overlaps little with the first season of The Rings of Power and Tolkien's writing is so dense and replete with confusing character names that it will prove challenging for anyone other than the most lore-soaked fans.

[Triceron]

So I take it you turning to insults and the usual derailment of discussion means you won't be providing a source to these times Amazon has done it in the past? I've addressed the things you've said. You don't like them. A speech at an industry conference live or remote/recorded is not "standard show marketing" no matter how much you want to claim it is.

And that isn't relevant to the show's actual performance, is it?

It's a pre recorded 'this is what we're already working on' message, that's it. As I said, you're just arguing with yourself. And not sure what you think is an insult. If you are being dishonest and I call you out on it then that isn't an insult dude.

[rhorle]

It's a pre recorded 'this is what we're already working on' message, that's it. As I said, you're just arguing with yourself. And not sure what you think is an insult. If you are being dishonest and I call you out on it then that isn't an insult dude.

It was supposed to be a keynote address and award acceptance but turned into a recorded interview because of a positive Covid diagnoses. It isn't a message like you are trying to claim. Regardless of your opinion of that just provide a source for your claim. The only one being dishonest here is yourself because instead of providing a source to your claims you turn to attacking me. Just put me back on ignore already.

[Triceron]

It was supposed to be a keynote address and award acceptance but turned into a recorded interview because of a positive Covid diagnoses. It isn't a message like you are trying to claim. Regardless of your opinion of that just provide a source for your claim. The only one being dishonest here is yourself because instead of providing a source to your claims you turn to attacking me. Just put me back on ignore already.

If you admit that it didn't actually address what it was intended to do then you can't exactly use that as an example of addressing something that it did not manage to.

Like I said, you're being dishonest with the very examples you're bringing forth. You're spinning things for the sake of arguing. Calling you out on this isn't an insult against you, it's pointing out you're intentionally trying to twist facts.

It comes down to a simple question - Has Amazon come out to make any statement about Rings of Power's performance (success) after the finale? No, they have not. Whether you compare this to HBO, who has spoken out on HoD's success, or even Amazon's own past with the Boys, which they also talked about being successful and moving forward on spinoffs and sequels, we're actually getting very little talks from them on Rings of Power outside of what we know they've already planned.

It's really something simple that you can agree on since you even started with an argument saying 'they don't have to do that', so I'm not sure why you even pivoted on that point in trying to bring up this mipcom thing as an example at all. You're literally just trying to twist the facts now to fit a completely different argument. And it has nothing to do with what I've said. That is dishonest as fuck, since you're not actually sticking to the context of the conversation and just going on a tangent and implying I was making arguments that were never made in the first place.


If you really want to be ignored that much, just stop replying. I'm not holding a gun to your head in having to read my replies or making you hit that reply button. Don't place that blame on me, dude. You are in control of your own actions. I'm not the one arguing about their marketting or whatever. You brought that up, not me.

[rhorle]

Like I said, you're being dishonest with the very examples you're bringing forth. You're spinning things for the sake of arguing. Calling you out on this isn't an insult against you, it's pointing out you're intentionally trying to twist facts.

I'm not twisting any facts. You said they made no statements. I provide some statements they made. You then tried to twist a remote interview because of Covid-19 was "pre-recording marketing" and dismissed it. You keep refusing to provide a source of where Amazon did what you want for other shows. The only one dishonest here is yourself and you are now ranting about me, the poster, as a defense for your own unwillingness to prove your claim.

[Triceron]

I'm not twisting any facts. You said they made no statements. I provide some statements they made. You then tried to twist a remote interview because of Covid-19 was "pre-recording marketing" and dismissed it. You keep refusing to provide a source of where Amazon did what you want for other shows. The only one dishonest here is yourself and you are now ranting about me, the poster, as a defense for your own unwillingness to prove your claim.

Which is, again, statements taken out of context.

If I'm replying to someone who was talking about the performance of the series, then that is the context of my reply. That you're then interpreting the statement as a blanket 'They didn't make any statement at all' then that is your own failure to address the context of the replyg.

You just read something you didn't like, jumped into a conversation that you weren't a part of, picked what you wanted to argue and went forward with it. Again, nothing to do with what I've said, everything to do with you wanting to argue what you choose to. I was replying to someone who was already talking about negative reviews and rumors, and my reply is to say that Amazon has been silent on addressing any of the rumors or performance of the series after the finale.

This has nothing to do with them actually releasing marketting content after the finale, lol. I know the podcast exists and had an episode that aired after the finale. That's clearly not what I was talking about.

The only thing that you've said that was relevant to what I've said was that they don't have to say anything. Sure, they don't have to. That is your opinion and I'm fine with disagreeing with you on that. I think it is important because other companies like HBO already did so for House of the Dragon, and HBO or its spokespeople/reps (GRRM included) have confirmed or dispelled rumors of cancelled spinoffs. IMO, they're very transparent about the performance of their shows and what they have planned.

[kenn9530]

Also people pretend it was a massive success, the show spent over 600 million on this season alone, you need to get MASSIVE numbers to justify that, not just good or even great numbers, and the fact it isn't sitting on top for not even weeks is proof the show performed subpar.

Its had over 100 million viewers so it is a massive success, the company generates over 2 billion a month just from amazon prime, where is your proof when you claim the show isnt a success.

Amazon invest in new and more shows to retain and gain more amazon prime subs, so all money spent is further investment, its essential to keep bringing in new shows/films.

[rhorle]

You just read something you didn't like, jumped into a conversation that you weren't a part of, picked what you wanted to argue and went forward with it. Again, nothing to do with what I've said, everything to do with you wanting to argue what you choose to. I was replying to someone who was already talking about negative reviews and rumors, and my reply is to say that Amazon has been silent on addressing any of the rumors or performance of the series after the finale.

Not to mention Amazon has been completely silent after the series finished. Considering how much they were touting the success of the show at launch, the silence now is deafening.

They were not completely silent after the series finished. It was only after you were proven wrong on that count that you shifted the goalposts of your statement. You've yet to provide a source to prove that Amazon has done so for other shows. We know as much about season 2 of HotD as we do about season 2 of RoP. Very little. HBO has talked about performance where Amazon has not. They usually don't though so their silence on that subject doesn't mean anything.

Will you provide proof of your claim that Amazon does talk about series success immediately following the series? Or will you just deflect with commentary about myself?

[Triceron]

They were not completely silent after the series finished.

Okay, I agree with you then. They weren't completely silent. They released post-finale podcast episodes and had a pre-recorded Mipcom interview.

Happy?

HBO has talked about performance where Amazon has not. They usually don't though so their silence on that subject doesn't mean anything.

And as I've said, I'm happy to disagree with you on that. It doesn't mean there isn't any silence. All you're providing here is your opinion, and one that I'm not contending whatsoever. Repeating yourself isn't changing anything since I've addressed that above.

That you think they don't need to doesn't mean the silence isn't there, especially in light of the rumors and ambiguity surrounding the show's performance and future. All we know is that they're still dedicated to pushing out 5 seasons, that's it. They've been way more transparent with the Boys than they have with Rings of Power. If you think they don't have to be transparent, that's fine.

Why you feel this needs to be defended, I'm not sure. All you're doing is choosing to take statements I've made out of context, and nitpicking arguments which I'm in no way making in the first place. I mean, if you want to argue technicalities then sure, I'll let you have em. Doesn't change anything that I said really. It's just you being anal retentive.

[rhorle]

And as I've said, I'm happy to disagree with you on that. It doesn't mean there isn't any silence. All you're providing here is your opinion, and one that I'm not contending whatsoever. Repeating yourself isn't changing anything since I've addressed that above.

You have done nothing but contend that opinion. Even saying they did something without providing any proof. Why does a show need to brag about its performance in order for it to be a success? There have always been rumors. There is a website that has dedicated itself to lies about the show for over a year prior to its release. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Amazon made no official press release about the boys post Season. They talked about its growth in past seasons when announcing it was renewed for Season 4. But we don't know much about season 4.

[Triceron]

Amazon made no official press release about the boys post Season. They talked about its growth in past seasons when announcing it was renewed for Season 4. But we don't know much about season 4.

Sure they have. They made talks of the Boys' success when it first came out and talked about its sequels and spinoff projects. I'm not talking specifically about Season 3 of the Boys.

You have done nothing but contend that opinion.

Er, I haven't contended it at all.

All I said is the silence is defeaning, and repeated the point that they haven't said anything about the performance of the show post-finale.

Whatever you're implying is contending your opinion is really just you. I'm not sure how repeating a statement I made before you even presented your opinion constitutes as contending your opinion. If I took a poop in a toilet and you scooped it out and put it in your cheerios, you can't turn that around to say I pooped in your cheerios.

[Dhrizzle]

It has "Lord of the Rings" in the name, what did you expect? Same thing with the new "Star Wars" trilogy. There's a huge fanbase that loves these franchises, to see it treated like shit will obviously make people very mad.

Most of the noise comes from YouTube drama fans who think "treated like shit" is an accurate way of describing an adaptation, probably not that many actual Tolkien fans.

[rhorle]

Sure they have. They made talks of the Boys' success when it first came out and talked about its sequels and spinoff projects. I'm not talking specifically about Season 3 of the Boys.

Do you have links to them talking about it? As their official press releases don't match your claims. They've talked about Rings of Power. Not much. That lack of specific information you want isn't deafening at all. Why can a show only be good if it brags about itself right away?

[Triceron]

They've talked about Rings of Power. Not much. That lack of specific information you want isn't deafening at all. Why can a show only be good if it brags about itself right away?

The silence that I'm referring to is contextually specific to the performance of the show and anything to dispel the rumors. I can repeat this a billion times and you'll still not listen, and by not considering this there's no way to move forward with this discussion. Like, I'm not sure what you want here.

You are being anal retentive, that is it. If you don't think it is defeaning then that is your opinion. I'm not quite sure you need to address this as though 'silence is defeaning' is something that has to apply to you. You understand that this is an expression of my own opinion, right? Because if it's not defeaning to you, surely you understand the nuance of subtext and opinion, yes? That this reply to a comment to someone else's post might not have anything to do with your own opinion?

I mean, you came at this with no intention of addressing the context of my original reply even after I made it clear what I was talking about. What exactly are you arguing here, that you don't think the silence is defeaning? Well I am fine you have that opinion. What more do you need here?

Why can a show only be good if it brags about itself right away?

I wouldn't know, you would have to ask the one who made that argument why they think that would be true. Obviously since I never said anything remotely close to that at all, I wouldn't be able to answer the question that you're presenting.

I'm sorry, I can't answer the arguments you're arguing yourself with.

[rhorle]

The silence that I'm referring to is contextually specific to the performance of the show and anything to dispel the rumors. I can repeat this a billion times and you'll still not listen, so yes you are being dishonest by not considering the conversation we're having now and moving forward with it.

Why is a show required to dispel rumors every time one occurs? Why do they have to do it within X time frame from last episode airing? Why does lack of doing so translate to the show believing they failed? Of course this is an expression of your own opinion. Why can't you explain your own opinion with out turning to predictable attacks/focus on me?