Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[kenn9530]

you rly flipped back to only two do, to not all, hum? No one chose not to, and there is no bad elves anyway, and they all end up reincarnated eventually, even if they delay.



It doesn't matter, his death was not something she would be hellbent on revenge because is pointless, he come back anyway.

And some elves do return to middle earth, we have two examples of it.



YES, SHE COULD

thts why she jumping to it ws fucking stupid


And surprise to you, numenor didn't fall yet, so, again, wrong.

We only know of 2 elves that have been reincarnated, the lore doesnt say any other elves had been reincarnated so you have nothing backing you up, no bad elves then what are the orcs, there is plenty of elves that could be denied reincarnation.

They cant the lore does not back you up at all, travel is not just jumping on a ship and you get there, there is no cases of just freely traveling to valinor. For one the distance makes it not suitable for just normal travel and past the first age you needed permission to get there, its a 7000 mile journey so it takes at min several months, numenor is probably days or weeks away from valinor.

[Triceron]

Galadriel is also THE greatest elven woman in all of Tolkien. If your standard is that the troops don't measure up to the actual literal hero, that is an impossibly high bar by any metric of epic storytelling. The hero towers above others precisely by virtue of being the hero, and is the hero precisely because they tower above others. That's how it works. If you expect something else, you're either in the wrong genre, or you're being ridiculously contrarian.

The show does a TERRIBLE way of conveying this information in any believable way. It'a completely contrived and not believable at all, because the 'greatest elven woman' ends up being more lucky than skillful when you consider most of her journey in Rings of Power is a matter of happenstance than a result of her talent.

How did she find the information on Sauron's map? Care to explain how the story came to her revelation? Care to enlightenment me how her greatness lead to her finding this information? You can't, because she lucked her way into it completely. If Elendil were anyone other than a Faithful, she would've been fucked.

[kenn9530]

Yeah. It shows they're completely incompetent and worthless. Just because you don't like the way the show presented it doesn't make it wrong.

If they are inexperienced and facing off the troll instead of tactically retreating, what would you call that? It's incompetence. It's stupidity. It's a misrepresentation of a race that is implied to be highly experienced because of their long lifespans.

There shouldn't be inexperienced Elves at all here, that is the problem with that explanation. It makes the entire military decision to send out inexperienced Elves reflect badly on the entire Elven chain of command. This one scene is a result of a massive failure to acknowledge the elephant in the room that Galadriel would have never realistically been a 'commander of the Elven armies' considering the glaring negligence she has in leading 'inexperienced' troops and realistically, would have gotten them killed much earlier than this single troll scene.

If we consider that it took them a long and hard journey to get to this point, they must have faced stuff worse than a mere snow troll, because Galadriel didn't even break a sweat dealing with it. And if her troops couldn't do anything in that fight, then whatever the reason of faults lie squarely with Galadriel. The show just happened to make this the straw that breaks the camel'a back, while the reality is if she were always treating her troops like this there's no reason why we should believe she legitimately achieved the rank of commander in the first place. Being a skilled fighter does not equal leading troops, that is a big misunderstanding of military chain of command that the writers don't seem to understand.

Elves can make mistakes they are not perfect, you have put them on a high pedestal when most elves are clearly not that much better than the race of men, the fight with the troll was to show of galadriels combat skills, the other elves didnt even get a chance to do anything so your whole argument about it is pointless.

The way the story is told is they have not found anything until the moment they found the ice castle, so its very likely they have not encountered any trolls, orcs or anything as most are trying to make mordor, middle earth is huge and most of saurons army was destroyed in the war, you are just grasping at straws because you simply dont like something.

[loras]

So eh, was it as bad as was feared?
As good as was hoped?

Kinda seems to have died a silent death here, implyong the former in terms of reception at least.

[Triceron]

Elves can make mistakes they are not perfect, you have put them on a high pedestal when most elves are clearly not that much better than the race of men, the fight with the troll was to show of galadriels combat skills, the other elves didnt even get a chance to do anything so your whole argument about it is pointless.

The way the story is told is they have not found anything until the moment they found the ice castle, so its very likely they have not encountered any trolls, orcs or anything as most are trying to make mordor, middle earth is huge and most of saurons army was destroyed in the war, you are just grasping at straws because you simply dont like something.

I didn't say they can't make mistakes or that they don't. They absolutely do. But there are still fundamental rules to story telling that should be followed in order to give the audience a cohesive understanding of everything that the story is intending to tell.

If this is a case of Elves being pushed to their limit and losing a fight because of exhaustion, the story needs to establish what skill level they would or could be at if they weren't exhausted to give a contrast and understanding of their position. And that contrast can't be from Galadriel, since we're already establishing she is no normal Elf, she's already far superior in physical prowess as shown by her climbing and ability to withstand fatigue in harsh elements. She is on a different level, and that's fine.

The problem comes from there being no standard to understand what level of skill any other Elf has other than veing able to climb. They did nothing else of note. Are they good scouts? Well Galadriel ended up being the one who found the tower and secret entrance into it. Are they experienced and aware of their surroundings? Well, Galadriel seemed to be the only one showing any of that, even going out of her way to explain that evil was causing the torches to lose their heat. Like, the show did nothing to establish the Elves contributing anything in the entire scene. And that is their ONLY moment to shine considering the show sets them off to Valinor and that is the last we ever see of them. There is never any moment to see them doing anything constructive. By all means, they held Galadriel back and the show did nothing to establish why she even needs them. There is no explanation here.

Our understanding of the skill and capabilities of the Elves doesn't come from Rings of Power. It comes from the Lord of the Rings movies. Everything cool about Elves is completely absent in the first episode of RoP, which means the story did a poor job of conveying what an Elf is and what they are capable of to anyone who hasn't watched LOTR before. That's poor storytelling.

[Syegfryed]

We only know of 2 elves that have been reincarnated, the lore doesnt say any other elves had been reincarnated so you have nothing backing you up, no bad elves then what are the orcs, there is plenty of elves that could be denied reincarnation.

You literally have lore saying what happens to then

the two you mention are the ones who return to middle earth, you want to claim i don't know the lore but you know shit.

They cant the lore does not back you up at all

It literally happened more than once.

travel is not just jumping on a ship and you get there, there is no cases of just freely traveling to valinor.

Yes there is, only after the fall of numenor that they stop doing it so freely.

For one the distance makes it not suitable for just normal travel

If Galadriel can swim to the other continent the ships can do it m8

and past the first age you needed permission to get there

That is something made up from the show, only other races need permission, some elves could not do it - a temporary ban - because the doom of the noldor, or some shenanigan like that, but GUESS WHAT, that does not happen in the show, the noldor does not slaughter the Telari to get their ships and travel to middle earth

its a 7000 mile journey so it takes at min several months

And she just jump to swim 7000 miles for several months

Is she retarded or just suicidal, you tell me. No, in fact, you don't need to, every time you try to explain you make things worse

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So eh, was it as bad as was feared?
As good as was hoped?

Kinda seems to have died a silent death here, implyong the former in terms of reception at least.

It was much, much worse, in every aspect you can imagine

[rhorle]

Even if he was not at the time, big IF, still is fucking pointless, his death was pointless, she know he will come back eventually, her revenge i dumb and pointless.

Elves still cared about such things despite being immortal. They didn't jump from cliffs just for fun because they would just respawn. She can't know if he will be released from the Halls of Mandos. She doesn't know if Morgoth, Sauron, or some other evil has tainted her brother that would cause a longer imprisonment or not even going to the halls.

[Xath]

Ignore Rhorle and Kenn. It makes the thread soo much better.

Yeah I keep getting drawn back into arguing with the trolls I know I really should ignore them ugh.

[Syegfryed]

Elves still cared about such things despite being immortal. They didn't jump from cliffs just for fun because they would just respawn.

They don't jump on cliffs, they also don't run reckless to their own death by thinking they can take on a maiar with their own hands

They also don't jump in the sea and ty to swim for monthts to reach the continent

She can't know if he will be released from the Halls of Mandos.

Everyone does, is inevitable

But this Galadriel is so insufferable they would prob not be released ever

She doesn't know if Morgoth, Sauron, or some other evil has tainted her brother that would cause a longer imprisonment or not even going to the halls.

that's some contrived bullshit

[rhorle]

They don't jump on cliffs, they also don't run reckless to their own death by thinking they can take on a maiar with their own hands

Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel so why would an elf be afraid to take on something lesser? That even ignores that an elf, Luthien, already defeated Sauron once lol.

[Syegfryed]

Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel so why would an elf be afraid to take on something lesser?

Pretty sure they didn't out for petty revenge, for someone who is alive or going to be alive eventually

Luthien, the wife of Beren, daughter of a maiar, defeated, not killed, Sauron once, all right

[rhorle]

Pretty sure they didn't out for petty revenge, for someone who is alive or going to be alive eventually

Didn't a large group of elves take an oath of vengeance and chase Melkor to middle-earth? Luthien was still an elf, regardless of her lineage, and took on Sauron. Just as an elf took on Melkor/Morgoth. It seems Tolkien made sure his elves had no issue with fighting above their level.

[Syegfryed]

Didn't a large group of elves take an oath of vengeance and chase Melkor to middle-earth?

Because you know, he stole the silmarilions and destroyed the trees? what comparison

Luthien was still an elf, regardless of her lineage, and took on Sauron. Just as an elf took on Melkor/Morgoth. It seems Tolkien made sure his elves had no issue with fighting above their level.

And where exactly state she defeat Sauron, and alone at that? i know she and Beren took one of the silmarilions from morgoth crown, but nothing about she defeating sauron.

You have to understand that there is no 'regardless of lineage" if they were born directly from the maiar, basically lesser gods of the setting, they are basically demigods without their blood being diminished, far superior to other elves, is like comparing humans with the blood of numenor to normal humans.

[rhorle]

You have to understand that there is no 'regardless of lineage" if they were born directly from the maiar, basically lesser gods of the setting, they are basically demigods without their blood being diminished, far superior to other elves, is like comparing humans with the blood of numenor to normal humans.

Galadriel is herself far superior to other elves. The appendix even calls her the greatest of elven women.It is amusing that you acknowledge that some elves are more powerful in one regard but have in the past denied it in others. Just like you think revenge is a foreign concept to Elves despite a large group making an oath about it. Even if we ignore Tolkien lore Rings of Power sets up revenge as the reason why they went to war with Morgoth. Revenge for destroying the "light of their home" (the trees).

[bledgor]

I still enjoy how people conflate being great with being some amazing warrior in combat. They forgot that greatness can come from other things, like being knowledgeable, from being wise, or being a competent/capable leader. Galadriel was know for all those traits, she wasn't know as being a warrior that could best the greatest foes in combat.

[rhorle]

I still enjoy how people conflate being great with being some amazing warrior in combat. They forgot that greatness can come from other things, like being knowledgeable, from being wise, or being a competent/capable leader. Galadriel was know for all those traits, she wasn't know as being a warrior that could best the greatest foes in combat.

Tolkien wrote her to be a warrior and not one without skill. Are you saying she forgot all of that by the second age? Or that she never learned to fight better over thousands of years?

Nature of Middle-Earth: “"Account of Galadriel’s quarrel with the sons of Fëanor at sack of Alqualondë. How she fought...”

Unfinished Tales: “she... fought heroically”

Morgoth’s Ring: “Marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.”

People’s of Middle-Earth: “Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could."

[loras]

You literally have lore saying what happens to then

the two you mention are the ones who return to middle earth, you want to claim i don't know the lore but you know shit.



It literally happened more than once.


Yes there is, only after the fall of numenor that they stop doing it so freely.


If Galadriel can swim to the other continent the ships can do it m8



That is something made up from the show, only other races need permission, some elves could not do it - a temporary ban - because the doom of the noldor, or some shenanigan like that, but GUESS WHAT, that does not happen in the show, the noldor does not slaughter the Telari to get their ships and travel to middle earth



And she just jump to swim 7000 miles for several months

Is she retarded or just suicidal, you tell me. No, in fact, you don't need to, every time you try to explain you make things worse

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It was much, much worse, in every aspect you can imagine

That's impressive, considering how poor the expectations were.
A pity, i had considered watching it.

[loras]

Depends - do you like fan fiction where Sauron basically proposes to Galadriel and offers to let her rule with him, and she like, doesn't immediately reject him?

Eh, honestly that just sounds weird.
A really good writer might be able to make it work i guess?
But honestly that sounds like early internet fanfictionsite stuff.

Perhaps more importantly: It doesn't make me want to check it out.

[kenn9530]

snip

As it stands in Rings of Power we know no elves that have be reincarnated, you also dont know how long they remain spirits until the valar actually build a body so at this point in history there is no proof any elves have been reincarnated or even they have knowledge they even get reincarnated when they die.

She couldnt swim back to middle earth, she was rescued and brought to numenor the closest land to the crossing point to valinor, she knew numenor was pretty close so the plan was obviously to get to numenor and get a boat. Its a huge deal heading back to valinor not just a normal occurance, you dont even know the basics of the lore or basics in tv shows.

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Again, with regards to the elves, you made all of this up. They elves didn't want to go back - they are there because they chose not to. There's nothing anywhere about elves getting to go back for "exceptional service" or "completing a long mission." That's your headcanon. The elves can go back at any time. Tolkien wavered on Galadriel and some of the other leaders and whether they were banned from returning due to their crimes (there are several versions of this story), but everyone else can go at any time. In fact, most are already gone.

Its not made up, every case of going back to valinor is under special circumstances, you cant provide one instance of just normal travel to valinor, the elves dont want to be in middle earth they want to be in valinor, they only remain in middle earth to complete certain tasks that the valar want done.

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snip

Your are not one to decide if its poor story telling or not, because you cant prove it otherwise, the show clearly shows the elves to be exhausted and stuggling under the extreme cold weather conditions, elves are not just immune to all elements just because you want them to be, there is nothing to explain a troll is a powerful enemy stronger than several normal elves, trolls are very well know to be a formidable enemy even veteran soldiers have issues with, no explainations are needed, if you cant come to some basic conclusions yourself you shouldnt watch shows you lack understanding of.

[Syegfryed]

Galadriel is herself far superior to other elves. The appendix even calls her the greatest of elven women.It is amusing that you acknowledge that some elves are more powerful in one regard but have in the past denied it in others.

Like @bledgor said, being the greatest doesn't you are the strongest or the most powerful, that is simple hedcanon, Galadriel is not, as far i know the daughter of Maiar and was not getting help from a hound of valinor

Just like you think revenge is a foreign concept to Elves despite a large group making an oath about it.

I never said it was a foreign concept, thats a lie, i said there is no point in revenge for someone who is live or, who is going to be alive eventually, especially when you give two shits bout your other two brothers nd your missing husband.

Even if we ignore Tolkien lore

Ah yes, the show does that lot