Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Tentim]

These days, I think it's a good idea to take audience scores with a grain of salt...seeing as vote-brigading has become a favorite pastime of a lot of people. It's not really comparable to polling, since stuff like this is self-selected.

I find audience scores are usually spot on I'm struggling to think of an exception. Though I guess it could come down to taste.

[bledgor]

I find audience scores are usually spot on I'm struggling to think of an exception. Though I guess it could come down to taste.

If anything I feel scores are higher/nicer for a show/movie than it probably deserves. I'd say most are within in a range I'd be okay with though.

[Adamas102]

The only racist here is you. You do know that black people can write, and have written many good stories. White people have also written many good stories that include different races, and in fact Tolkien allows for black HUMANS by way of the Haradrim. If they had written a story about the fall of the Haradrim and them falling under Sauron that could have been an interesting story. Yet you want your black elves because YOU only see skin color. Maybe the reason you throw racist out so much as you see yourself in others?

Heyyyy, look at that. The bigot doubles down by suggesting that black characters should be segregated to the works of black authors (as if it was ever in question that "black people can write"). It takes some real ignorance to think that a black British actor should be told that their only place in Tolkien's fantasy universe is playing someone from a faceless horde of corrupted people loosely modeled on Ethiopians.

Yes, I only see skin color when I say an elf is a elf regardless of skin color . Meanwhile here you are pushing for some sort of "racial purity" while calling other people racists. What a fucking joke. I don't WANT black elves. I just don't care what actor they cast to play one because what defines an "elf" has nothing to do with skin color.

You know Tolkien, the man who created it, built it as historical fantasy for England, based on England right? He also gave us descriptions of the people. If you want to say he never specifically wrote all elves are white/no black elves, that is a hill you can die on, but considering no named or presented characters are would make either the people of Middle Earth racist, in which case why are you reading/caring about it, or they were all killed off since Rings of Power is the 2nd age and none seem to exist in the 3rd age, which is a fucked up genocide they are writing then. You are free as well as everyone else to make your own historical fantasy that features elves of every color, stop taking things that are already known and changing them.

Tolkien never called his work a history or mythology for England. It was scholars who wrote of his works after his death that gave it that title. He did lament the fact that much of the mythology of pre Anglo-Saxon England had been lost, but outside of the published stories his legendarium was more of a personal passion project and home for his made-up languages. Not a 19th century work of fantasy for modern day white Britons to pretend was their history.

"I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story – the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."

He dedicated his work to England, but given his desire to have his work be adapted and expanded upon by others, the idea that his setting must strictly adhere to the racial demographics of Tolkien's time is absurd. No one bats an eye when half the cast of the LotR movies are from America, Australia, and New Zealand, but god forbid a black British actor be cast in a story that is apparently a British fantasy.

Because the Elves in Tolkiens story had descriptions of what they were/looked like/defining characteristics. Tolkien also never said they didn't have tails growing out of their ass, should we allow that too? Also again IF you force black elves/dwarves into the story in the 2nd age, you then have to explain why they are gone in the 3rd age, so either you have token 1-2 of each in which case you are pandering and don't actually care (because again you can go to the Haradrim if you want different skin colors), or there was a genocide of all dark skin elves and dwarves, which is a fucked up things to write.

In answer to the bolded, NO. No, you don't have to explain that.

The races of Tolkien's legendarium didn't come into being and evolve the way real world humans did. The idea that if black elves exist in this fantasy world their presence and/or absence HAS to be specifically explained is based purely on your desire for racial purity and segregation (the idea that skin color is always defining of a separate people and a line that cannot be crossed).

The notion that a black elf and a white elf can simply be of the same people and lineage is an idea that your simple little mind just can't comprehend.

[loppy88]

Man, people really can't let Wheel of Time go, can they? How utterly pathetic.

You guys need hobbies that take you outside or something. Whining on the internet over things that just don't matter must get so boring. Unless that's basically the highlight of your lives, I guess /shrug

I agree with you, people who are upset that the things they grew up with and even maybe shaped them in some way being corrupted by political messages, instead of just trying to tell a story, should really just go away.
We should all just bend over and enjoy what they are feeding us, simply because the political message is of inclusion and diversity.

The biggest problem is that people just don't realise that we are all on the same side here. We love the imaginary worlds of fantasy. I wanted to give the Wheel of Time a chance, my friend was bitching about the diversity angle since he's seen the first trailer and I decided not to go that way. I even liked the first two Star Wars sequel movies.

It is not about the diversity, it is not about inclusion. Give me a good story first, I don't care if they put an asian wheelchair bound wizzard in the show or not. Just make the story, the rules, the atmosphere first. Fuck the political message, put people who are actual passionate writers in charge of the story. But, sadly, we, humans notice patterns, and the pattern is if the show is crammed full of real world politics, diversity and inclusion, chances are that they are not making a good story, they are making a message.

I am sorry, this is just the way that I feel.

[s_bushido]

We should all just bend over and enjoy what they are feeding us, simply because the political message is of inclusion and diversity.

Imagine hearing "stop whining about it and simply don't watch it if you don't like it, losers" and getting this message out of it.

But I do enjoy the assertion that casting people of different skin color to play roles in fantasy settings is "corrupting" the material. It's almost as if the bigots can't help but tell on themselves.

The Transformers movies were mostly hot garbage and incredibly disappointing for what they could have been. And yet there's not an entire cottage industry out there set up to bemoan Michael Bay's military propaganda, and his concerted effort to destroy the youth of the culture with his terrible jokes and dialogue.

[loppy88]

Imagine hearing "stop whining about it and simply don't watch it if you don't like it, losers" and getting this message out of it.

But I do enjoy the assertion that casting people of different skin color to play roles in fantasy settings is "corrupting" the material. It's almost as if the bigots can't help but tell on themselves.

You still don't understand what I am saying. It's the pattern. You get excited about a movie or a series of your favourite book or game and you can't wait to watch it. You watch it and it's shit. Because it comes of as patronising and condenesending. It seems that the creators nowdays don't just want to make an entertaining material, they just want to educate and virtue signal. And whenever their product fails, they blame the racism.
I am really not trying to argue, I am just having a conversation.

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Imagine hearing "stop whining about it and simply don't watch it if you don't like it, losers" and getting this message out of it.

But I do enjoy the assertion that casting people of different skin color to play roles in fantasy settings is "corrupting" the material. It's almost as if the bigots can't help but tell on themselves.

The Transformers movies were mostly hot garbage and incredibly disappointing for what they could have been. And yet there's not an entire cottage industry out there set up to bemoan Michael Bay's military propaganda, and his concerted effort to destroy the youth of the culture with his terrible jokes and dialogue.

Also, like I said, people are attached to these intellectual properties, they shaped them, helped them trough a rough time.

Is there a property that you would like to be made a series or a movie and which one that would be?

[s_bushido]

You still don't understand what I am saying. It's the pattern. You get excited about a movie or a series of your favourite book or game and you can't wait to watch it. You watch it and it's shit. Because it comes of as patronising and condenesending. It seems that the creators nowdays don't just want to make an entertaining material, they just want to educate and virtue signal. And whenever their product fails, they blame the racism.

It's racism when people see basic concepts like "diversity is our strength" and assume it's virtue signaling because it happens to involve non-white actors. That theme comes up over and over again in Jackson's movies. Probably the biggest example is a scene which Tolkien purists no-doubt lost their shit over: when the elves show up at Helm's Deep. The development of the friendship between Gimli and Legolas, despite the racial animus the two shared at the beginning of the story, is also a huge part of it. And it goes right down to "even the smallest person can change the course of history" (another change/addition which undoubtedly enraged those for whom nothing would have been acceptable but a shot-for-shot adaptation of the novels). What idiots on the internet call "virtue signaling," everyone else just calls "storytelling."

[druenos]

Would be cool if they did a tv series based on The Silmarillion but no matter what it is based on, it will probably have crappy writers and actors. I liked the Hobbit movies a lot. I liked them a lot more than the book. I liked the lord of the rings movies a lot. Only thing i hated about the lord of the rings movies was how emo-ish and androgynous the actor who played frodo baggins was. The guy who played sam wise was pretty annoying too.

In the books they were even more " emo-ish ", they were crying all the time. If anything they toned it down a notch in the movies.

[loppy88]

The fact you took my post about people on the internet whining about inconsequential things because they have nothing else in their lives, and proceeding to do exactly that is... well, its something.

The source material, that people so claim to love (to the point of disgusting worship of it, even while some clearly don't actually know it all that well), is still there. It will forever be there. If someone makes a movie/TV series/whatever that ends up being bad, you move the fuck on and just go back to the source that remains untouched. You don't cry for months and months, in this case over something that is still months away from even airing, and fill your life with it just so you can be mad at something. Unless, as I said, you have fuck all else going on in your life.

For instance, I've wanted to see a screen adaptation of The Riftwar Cycle, which is about 30 books, for around 2 decades (roughly when I first started reading it). The author has held out for what he feels is the best deal, with the best people, this entire time. There was news earlier this year that there was now going to be a TV series that adapts the first 6 books. Am I looking forward to it? Absolutely. Will I cry on a gaming forum for months before it airs and months after it finishes if it isn't done exactly as I want it or think it should be done? Hell no. I'm a functioning adult with better shit to worry about.

TL;DR Be a grown up and get over it.

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So, it is about diversity and inclusion, and you do care if they put an "asian wheelchair bound wizzard" in there... and clearly not about a "good story."

Meh, never change I guess

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It's racism when people see basic concepts like "diversity is our strength" and assume it's virtue signaling because it happens to involve non-white actors. That theme comes up over and over again in Jackson's movies. Probably the biggest example is a scene which Tolkien purists no-doubt lost their shit over: when the elves show up at Helm's Deep. The development of the friendship between Gimli and Legolas, despite the racial animus the two shared at the beginning of the story, is also a huge part of it. And it goes right down to "even the smallest person can change the course of history" (another change/addition which undoubtedly enraged those for whom nothing would have been acceptable but a shot-for-shot adaptation of the novels). What idiots on the internet call "virtue signaling," everyone else just calls "storytelling."

You assume racism, what I see is companies avoiding responsibilities for their failures. Imagine saying my product doesn't suck, it's the consumers who are wrong.

[s_bushido]

You assume racism, what I see is companies avoiding responsibilities for their failures. Imagine saying my product doesn't suck, it's the consumers who are wrong.

Shit's not even out yet, and people are already convinced it sucks. What else are studios supposed to think when the reasons given are *checks notes* black elves, beardless female dwarves, and Elrond with short hair?

[Xath]

I will continue to be a well adjusted adult, sure.

I'm sure you'll continue to scream into the void about things that don't really matter.

All is well with the world.

Being a well adjusted adult is spending all day trolling on a wow forum about non wow topics :P

[bledgor]

Shit's not even out yet, and people are already convinced it sucks. What else are studios supposed to think when the reasons given are *checks notes* black elves, beardless female dwarves, and Elrond with short hair?

The squishing of thousands of years into only a few years, the changing of Galadrials characters (who also during this age has a daugher, kind of important since she is Arwens mother), the cutting of important characters to the story (Celeborn/Cirdan the shipwright are who?), the addition of 5 new characters in a story already crammed full of characters, adding a race (harfoots) that wasn't around yet and wouldn't be till the next age.

Might want to update your notes, because that is a lot of things to flub already, and considering how Amazon has handled other adaptations it doesn't inspire confidence.

[s_bushido]

that is a lot of things to flub already

lol... Along with the "it's just fan-fiction!!!" nonsense, calling things that happen in literally every adaptations "flubs" has to be up their with the most out-of-touch takes imaginable.

And for reference, some omega-nerds compiled a massive list of the changes in Jackson's trilogy:
https://www.theonering.com/complete-...-film-changes/

Your couple sentences is pretty weak.

[Makabreska]

The squishing of thousands of years into only a few years, the changing of Galadrials characters (who also during this age has a daugher, kind of important since she is Arwens mother), the cutting of important characters to the story (Celeborn/Cirdan the shipwright are who?), the addition of 5 new characters in a story already crammed full of characters, adding a race (harfoots) that wasn't around yet and wouldn't be till the next age.

Might want to update your notes, because that is a lot of things to flub already, and considering how Amazon has handled other adaptations it doesn't inspire confidence.

Well, talking from the neutral (and barely interested) point of view, the only complaints and things talked about I see are those regarding skin colour and such. AKA "awmagad LotR went woke". That's like the only hate fuel I see around. Literally first comments under posters (those with hands) were "hmmm, suspicious skin colour".

[bledgor]

lol... Along with the "it's just fan-fiction!!!" nonsense, calling things that happen in literally every adaptations "flubs" has to be up their with the most out-of-touch takes imaginable.

...lol, didnt realize every adaptation has Galadrial, Harfoots, etc. If the term flub offends you, maybe I should say fucked up, Amazon had fucked up a lot of things already considering they have given us only a few interviews and 2 minute long teasers. That is worrying.

If you are talking changes happening in every adaptation yes, there are changes, people know this. However there are varying degrees of changes that people allow, and the changes in Rings of Power are quite large, larger than some people are willing to allow in an adaptation (again don't adapt if you want to make a ton of changes, create, people are free to do so).

Well, talking from the neutral (and barely interested) point of view, the only complaints and things talked about I see are those regarding skin colour and such. AKA "awmagad LotR went woke". That's like the only hate fuel I see around. Literally first comments under posters (those with hands) were "hmmm, suspicious skin colour".

I mean maybe the most vocal, but I certainly have seen a lot of complaints about the things I have posted too, I certainly wasn't the first to point out the issues i listed either. Again not saying you have to be a 100% purist, but come on at least try to get close.

[Rennadrel]

People should just have zero expectations. I don't at all expect this to be good, I expect the story to be garbage because no one can do Tolkien faithfully at any level.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I can understand how someone can watch a trailer for something like this and be like "No, that's not for me."

What I do not understand is all the energy some people will spend hating on something that hasn't even been released yet.

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People should just have zero expectations. I don't at all expect this to be good, I expect the story to be garbage because no one can do Tolkien faithfully at any level.

It's pretty funny that you tell other people they shouldn't have expectations...and then immediately list your own expectations.

[Khaza-R]

Well, talking from the neutral (and barely interested) point of view, the only complaints and things talked about I see are those regarding skin colour and such. AKA "awmagad LotR went woke". That's like the only hate fuel I see around. Literally first comments under posters (those with hands) were "hmmm, suspicious skin colour".

Unfortunately those types tend to be the loudest people. Really across all mediums. I mean you can see it in WoW even.

Which in a way is sad because there are some very legitimate criticisms out there. Not just focusing on negativity but genuinely concerned because they want to enjoy the final product and for it to be better. But then there are those who lump the two together and just dismiss everything.

[Sanguinerd]

I can understand how someone can watch a trailer for something like this and be like "No, that's not for me."

What I do not understand is all the energy some people will spend hating on something that hasn't even been released yet

Same, but that goes for the people defending as well.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Same, but that goes for the people defending as well.

Most of the people I've seen "defending" are more like "wait until it comes out before you make up your mind" or "If you don't like it...just don't watch it". It's not really comparable.