Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[kenn9530]

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There are ppl who prefer books and ppl who prefer tv/movies, the larger audience always goes to the tv series/movies an adaptation does not really go after the book fanbase because its generally far smaller.

There was nothing wrong with wheel of time it has high ratings and was a good solid show just like many shows that have been released, its just the hardcore fans bitching about it noone else, you are either going to like something or not. A new tv series or movie doesnt have to be labled as the best thing ever to be successful of good. The audiance that watched wheel of time is 3-4 times larger than who bought the books.

The LOTR series will be a good solid series, its not going to live up to expectations built up from the movies and the hardcore fans will 100% bitch about it while the rest enjoy watching it. Plus you cant do things from a book written a long time ago, things have to be changed to be suited for the current time and many things are subject to change to make it suitable for a tv series.

Following a book to the letter costs far more money than it would be worth doing it for, also a tv series would need to be 20 plus episodes again to even fit it all in so its not practical to follow a book as closely as possible, getting it close enough is more than acceptable.

[Khaza-R]

There was nothing wrong with wheel of time it has high ratings and was a good solid show just like many shows that have been released, its just the hardcore fans bitching about it noone else, you are either going to like something or not. A new tv series or movie doesnt have to be labled as the best thing ever to be successful of good. The audiance that watched wheel of time is 3-4 times larger than who bought the books.

Let's not go too far. WoT sits at 62% audience score on RT which is close to Book of Boba Fett at 57%. I wouldn't consider either "successes".

[kenn9530]

Let's not go too far. WoT sits at 62% audience score on RT which is close to Book of Boba Fett at 57%. I wouldn't consider either "successes".

Both are good solid series which are considered a success, ratings are also not really accurate when its about 1% of the total audiance that actually watched it, as long as there is enough watching it thats all that matters not some BS ratings that dont amount to much.

[bledgor]

There are ppl who prefer books and ppl who prefer tv/movies, the larger audience always goes to the tv series/movies an adaptation does not really go after the book fanbase because its generally far smaller.

I get that, but the reason you adapt a source is because you want to tap that pre-built fandom, and yes companies most certainly do go after that fanbase, not the 100% purist but they want the for lack of a better term season fan/read it once fans.

There was nothing wrong with wheel of time it has high ratings and was a good solid show just like many shows that have been released, its just the hardcore fans bitching about it noone else, you are either going to like something or not. A new tv series or movie doesnt have to be labled as the best thing ever to be successful of good. The audiance that watched wheel of time is 3-4 times larger than who bought the books.

There was a lot wrong as an adaptation, you want to say it is a good show, again you can argue that, but don't say it was faithful. Its ratings are okay from fans (3.6/5 on google, Rotten tomatoes the critics loved it at 82% but the fan score is 62%, so okay show there, only IMDB is it in a good range of 7.1/10). I can assure you more than just he hardcore fans were complaining about it. Where did I ever say a new show/movie has to be labeled the best thing ever to be successful or good? Also bull fucking shit, the books sold over 90 million copies, if Amazon got 90 million viewers they would have plastered it everywhere. The numbers we have are 8.5 million hours viewed as of episode 6, which are going to be better as you will lose "hardcore" fans along the way as you put it, which means at best you average just over 1 million viewers an episode, so BEST CASE 9 million viewers (again ignoring anyone that repeated, lose of viewers over the season, the fact that as you correctly stated it is easier for people to watch/enjoy a show vs a book). Now before you go 90 million sold, thats not per a book, fine 14 books so still 6.4 million per a book which is ~6 times what amazon got.

The LOTR series will be a good solid series, its not going to live up to expectations built up from the movies and the hardcore fans will 100% bitch about it while the rest enjoy watching it. Plus you cant do things from a book written a long time ago, things have to be changed to be suited for the current time and many things are subject to change to make it suitable for a tv series.

It COULD be, doubt it WILL be, but funny you say it won't live up to the expectations built it from the movies and only mention hardcore fans being upset. Things don't have to be or need to be changed about books written long ago, should they not make movies about To kill a Mocking bird? Does of Mice and Men need to be changed due to Lenny? Should we complete erase/change the history of bad things/not write about bad things?

Like you want racism gone/corrected, but what about books written today that include rape and murder? You just okay with that, but racism is too far? Also again Tolkien allowed for diversity of skin in the Haradrim, if that is so important why not write about them instead of forcing changes? Why change the work when the work allows what you want? Finally if the show had no dark skinned elves/dwarves it would still be suitable for a tv series (also like I have said dozens of times it has many issues that ruin it, dark skinned elves/dwarves are literally pennies on the dollar to the changes made).

Following a book to the letter costs far more money than it would be worth doing it for, also a tv series would need to be 20 plus episodes again to even fit it all in so its not practical to follow a book as closely as possible, getting it close enough is more than acceptable.

Do you have the numbers to back up this claim, or just talking out your ass about money, I won't deny it certainly costs more to make a show/movie than a book, but you can be faithful (again I have never said be 100%) and make it cost efficient.

Also The eye of the world is 782 pages, meanwhile Fellowship of the ring is 423 pages, The Two towers 352 pages, and Return of the King 416 pages. The trilogy was 558 hours or 686 extended, or 9.3 hours/11.4 hours. So the first two books are roughly the same length as The eye of the World, and together they are 6/7.3 hours. Guess Jackson is just a much better producer because even extended editions he fit the same book length into 7.3 hours as Rafe did in 8 hours of WoT.

There are so many extra things added (the whole of the warder episode, Perrin's fridged wife, the sexual nature of Rand/Egwenes relationship,etc) that took away from the story and so many little things like a line here or there that would have massively improved the story and cost you SECONDS.

For example while traveling with EF5 have Lan take the boys aside to train, and them show him they aren't completely useless with weapons. This sets up the dynamic of the group/develops Lan while showing the boys skill/giving a starting point for their growth for later exploits in the series. You can even add a line like "if you are going to have a heron marked blade I should ensure you are worthy of it" from Lan to Rand, again it builds up lore/gives information while taking seconds to do instead of having Balthamel randomly say it with no context. Instead of having Morgaine say she doesn't have time to teach Rand how to use the power, have her say as a woman she can't teach Rand how to use Saidin since she uses Saidar, maybe 5 seconds longer but more development/information for the watcher.

Both are good solid series which are considered a success, ratings are also not really accurate when its about 1% of the total audiance that actually watched it, as long as there is enough watching it thats all that matters not some BS ratings that dont amount to much.

Funny ratings aren't accurate but you get to say they are good solid series based on? Also as I point out the numbers being generous aren't close to the book numbers.

[Khaza-R]

Both are good solid series which are considered a success, ratings are also not really accurate when its about 1% of the total audiance that actually watched it, as long as there is enough watching it thats all that matters not some BS ratings that dont amount to much.

Extremely amusing response. Then in your opinion virtually all polling and surveying is "BS" since it just draws representative data from a population

[kenn9530]

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Wheel of time had around 15-20 million viewers in its debut week so that 3-4 times higher than the potential 6 million but most likely much less book fanbase since its doubtful every one of those fans bought every single book of the series, thats more than good enough considering the book has been out for decades.. So all the numbers prove the wheel of time was a good solid series, not the best ever but good enough, it doesnt matter if you dont like it other ppl do.

Adaptations dont need to be faithful they can do whatever they want so in the end it doesnt matter in the slightest if the story is changed or not. LOTRs universe is subject to changes it doesnt need to follow everything written in the book, as long as its entertaining thats all that really matters.

You have the books if you want to read from the source, the rest are more than happy with what we get in a tv/movie.

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Extremely amusing response. Then in your opinion virtually all polling and surveying is "BS" since it just draws representative data from a population

The sample size is not large enough to use the data properly, its a rough general outline at best, lots of tv series rate similar to what boba and WoT were and they are good and solid, ratings dont really matter all that much.

[bledgor]

Wheel of time had around 15-20 million viewers in its debut week so that 3-4 times higher than the potential 6 million but most likely much less book fanbase since its doubtful every one of those fans bought every single book of the series, thats more than good enough considering the book has been out for decades.. So all the numbers prove the wheel of time was a good solid series, not the best ever but good enough, it doesnt matter if you dont like it other ppl do.

Feel free to back up any of your claims at any point, I dropped numbers you can verify easily that disagree STRONGLY with what you said. Even if you are right, by episode 6 the average viewership no where close to 15-20 million viewers (Neilson numbers/ratings), which would mean a MASSIVE drop in viewership, suggesting the show ISN'T much loved. Also the 6 million isn't "most likely much less", IT IS PROVEABLY RIGHT (by averages, we FACTUALLY KNOW 90 million copies of the books in the series were sold, so even if you want to say less finished, that means by your logic the first book would have sold a ton more).

Yes the book has been out decades, but didn't you just say books reach a far smaller audience than a show/movie, if the books averaged 6 million a book the show should be massive, or at least equal, but it wasn't. So no all the numbers don't prove its a good series, even by your numbers it only proves the show had a MASSIVE fall off by episode 6 (only numbers I have seen suggest at least a 50% drop), which would suggest A LOT of the viewers don't like it enough to continue watching it.

Again considering the book readers should bring a free amount of millions of fans for a series with the potential to be the next LotR or Game of Thrones, that is very disappointing. With prime being so plentiful because people use it for shipping this show had a crazy potential audience and can't even hang with the book it is based on. Also as I said earlier 7 months later no one is talking about it, where LotR and early GoT was everywhere for years.

Adaptations dont need to be faithful they can do whatever they want so in the end it doesnt matter in the slightest if the story is changed or not. LOTRs universe is subject to changes it doesnt need to follow everything written in the book, as long as its entertaining thats all that really matters.

You have the books if you want to read from the source, the rest are more than happy with what we get in a tv/movie.

.... that is some slippery slope bullshit, by that logic why not have guns in LoTR, don't have to be faithful am I right? You do know the reason LoTR has sold hundreds of millions of copies is because it was massively entertaining, why change it away from WHAT YOU KNOW PEOPLE like? Do you like it when a chef throws shit in your food? If it ain't broke don't fix it, and LotR was anything but broke.

Also why you don't have to be 100% faithful in my opinion, you SHOULD and honestly need to be faithful still, if not. Why fucking adapt the story in the first place? I have the books sure, but when bad adaptations are allowed they certain taint the legacy of the source (see any actor that did fucked up shit and is now an outcast like Kevin Spacy).

The sample size is not large enough to use the data properly, its a rough general outline at best, lots of tv series rate similar to what boba and WoT were and they are good and solid, ratings dont really matter all that much.

LOL, so because it doesn't fit YOUR opinion suddenly numbers aren't good enough, but you doubt the 90 million provably sold copies of the books? Bad faith much?

[Xath]

Anyone who tries to claim Rafe of time was a good adaptation is simply here to troll and should just be put on ignore.

[s_bushido]

Extremely amusing response. Then in your opinion virtually all polling and surveying is "BS" since it just draws representative data from a population

These days, I think it's a good idea to take audience scores with a grain of salt...seeing as vote-brigading has become a favorite pastime of a lot of people. It's not really comparable to polling, since stuff like this is self-selected.

[Tentim]

These days, I think it's a good idea to take audience scores with a grain of salt...seeing as vote-brigading has become a favorite pastime of a lot of people. It's not really comparable to polling, since stuff like this is self-selected.

I find audience scores are usually spot on I'm struggling to think of an exception. Though I guess it could come down to taste.

[bledgor]

I find audience scores are usually spot on I'm struggling to think of an exception. Though I guess it could come down to taste.

If anything I feel scores are higher/nicer for a show/movie than it probably deserves. I'd say most are within in a range I'd be okay with though.

[Adamas102]

The only racist here is you. You do know that black people can write, and have written many good stories. White people have also written many good stories that include different races, and in fact Tolkien allows for black HUMANS by way of the Haradrim. If they had written a story about the fall of the Haradrim and them falling under Sauron that could have been an interesting story. Yet you want your black elves because YOU only see skin color. Maybe the reason you throw racist out so much as you see yourself in others?

Heyyyy, look at that. The bigot doubles down by suggesting that black characters should be segregated to the works of black authors (as if it was ever in question that "black people can write"). It takes some real ignorance to think that a black British actor should be told that their only place in Tolkien's fantasy universe is playing someone from a faceless horde of corrupted people loosely modeled on Ethiopians.

Yes, I only see skin color when I say an elf is a elf regardless of skin color . Meanwhile here you are pushing for some sort of "racial purity" while calling other people racists. What a fucking joke. I don't WANT black elves. I just don't care what actor they cast to play one because what defines an "elf" has nothing to do with skin color.

You know Tolkien, the man who created it, built it as historical fantasy for England, based on England right? He also gave us descriptions of the people. If you want to say he never specifically wrote all elves are white/no black elves, that is a hill you can die on, but considering no named or presented characters are would make either the people of Middle Earth racist, in which case why are you reading/caring about it, or they were all killed off since Rings of Power is the 2nd age and none seem to exist in the 3rd age, which is a fucked up genocide they are writing then. You are free as well as everyone else to make your own historical fantasy that features elves of every color, stop taking things that are already known and changing them.

Tolkien never called his work a history or mythology for England. It was scholars who wrote of his works after his death that gave it that title. He did lament the fact that much of the mythology of pre Anglo-Saxon England had been lost, but outside of the published stories his legendarium was more of a personal passion project and home for his made-up languages. Not a 19th century work of fantasy for modern day white Britons to pretend was their history.

"I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story – the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."

He dedicated his work to England, but given his desire to have his work be adapted and expanded upon by others, the idea that his setting must strictly adhere to the racial demographics of Tolkien's time is absurd. No one bats an eye when half the cast of the LotR movies are from America, Australia, and New Zealand, but god forbid a black British actor be cast in a story that is apparently a British fantasy.

Because the Elves in Tolkiens story had descriptions of what they were/looked like/defining characteristics. Tolkien also never said they didn't have tails growing out of their ass, should we allow that too? Also again IF you force black elves/dwarves into the story in the 2nd age, you then have to explain why they are gone in the 3rd age, so either you have token 1-2 of each in which case you are pandering and don't actually care (because again you can go to the Haradrim if you want different skin colors), or there was a genocide of all dark skin elves and dwarves, which is a fucked up things to write.

In answer to the bolded, NO. No, you don't have to explain that.

The races of Tolkien's legendarium didn't come into being and evolve the way real world humans did. The idea that if black elves exist in this fantasy world their presence and/or absence HAS to be specifically explained is based purely on your desire for racial purity and segregation (the idea that skin color is always defining of a separate people and a line that cannot be crossed).

The notion that a black elf and a white elf can simply be of the same people and lineage is an idea that your simple little mind just can't comprehend.

[loppy88]

Man, people really can't let Wheel of Time go, can they? How utterly pathetic.

You guys need hobbies that take you outside or something. Whining on the internet over things that just don't matter must get so boring. Unless that's basically the highlight of your lives, I guess /shrug

I agree with you, people who are upset that the things they grew up with and even maybe shaped them in some way being corrupted by political messages, instead of just trying to tell a story, should really just go away.
We should all just bend over and enjoy what they are feeding us, simply because the political message is of inclusion and diversity.

The biggest problem is that people just don't realise that we are all on the same side here. We love the imaginary worlds of fantasy. I wanted to give the Wheel of Time a chance, my friend was bitching about the diversity angle since he's seen the first trailer and I decided not to go that way. I even liked the first two Star Wars sequel movies.

It is not about the diversity, it is not about inclusion. Give me a good story first, I don't care if they put an asian wheelchair bound wizzard in the show or not. Just make the story, the rules, the atmosphere first. Fuck the political message, put people who are actual passionate writers in charge of the story. But, sadly, we, humans notice patterns, and the pattern is if the show is crammed full of real world politics, diversity and inclusion, chances are that they are not making a good story, they are making a message.

I am sorry, this is just the way that I feel.

[s_bushido]

We should all just bend over and enjoy what they are feeding us, simply because the political message is of inclusion and diversity.

Imagine hearing "stop whining about it and simply don't watch it if you don't like it, losers" and getting this message out of it.

But I do enjoy the assertion that casting people of different skin color to play roles in fantasy settings is "corrupting" the material. It's almost as if the bigots can't help but tell on themselves.

The Transformers movies were mostly hot garbage and incredibly disappointing for what they could have been. And yet there's not an entire cottage industry out there set up to bemoan Michael Bay's military propaganda, and his concerted effort to destroy the youth of the culture with his terrible jokes and dialogue.

[loppy88]

Imagine hearing "stop whining about it and simply don't watch it if you don't like it, losers" and getting this message out of it.

But I do enjoy the assertion that casting people of different skin color to play roles in fantasy settings is "corrupting" the material. It's almost as if the bigots can't help but tell on themselves.

You still don't understand what I am saying. It's the pattern. You get excited about a movie or a series of your favourite book or game and you can't wait to watch it. You watch it and it's shit. Because it comes of as patronising and condenesending. It seems that the creators nowdays don't just want to make an entertaining material, they just want to educate and virtue signal. And whenever their product fails, they blame the racism.
I am really not trying to argue, I am just having a conversation.

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Imagine hearing "stop whining about it and simply don't watch it if you don't like it, losers" and getting this message out of it.

But I do enjoy the assertion that casting people of different skin color to play roles in fantasy settings is "corrupting" the material. It's almost as if the bigots can't help but tell on themselves.

The Transformers movies were mostly hot garbage and incredibly disappointing for what they could have been. And yet there's not an entire cottage industry out there set up to bemoan Michael Bay's military propaganda, and his concerted effort to destroy the youth of the culture with his terrible jokes and dialogue.

Also, like I said, people are attached to these intellectual properties, they shaped them, helped them trough a rough time.

Is there a property that you would like to be made a series or a movie and which one that would be?

[s_bushido]

You still don't understand what I am saying. It's the pattern. You get excited about a movie or a series of your favourite book or game and you can't wait to watch it. You watch it and it's shit. Because it comes of as patronising and condenesending. It seems that the creators nowdays don't just want to make an entertaining material, they just want to educate and virtue signal. And whenever their product fails, they blame the racism.

It's racism when people see basic concepts like "diversity is our strength" and assume it's virtue signaling because it happens to involve non-white actors. That theme comes up over and over again in Jackson's movies. Probably the biggest example is a scene which Tolkien purists no-doubt lost their shit over: when the elves show up at Helm's Deep. The development of the friendship between Gimli and Legolas, despite the racial animus the two shared at the beginning of the story, is also a huge part of it. And it goes right down to "even the smallest person can change the course of history" (another change/addition which undoubtedly enraged those for whom nothing would have been acceptable but a shot-for-shot adaptation of the novels). What idiots on the internet call "virtue signaling," everyone else just calls "storytelling."

[druenos]

Would be cool if they did a tv series based on The Silmarillion but no matter what it is based on, it will probably have crappy writers and actors. I liked the Hobbit movies a lot. I liked them a lot more than the book. I liked the lord of the rings movies a lot. Only thing i hated about the lord of the rings movies was how emo-ish and androgynous the actor who played frodo baggins was. The guy who played sam wise was pretty annoying too.

In the books they were even more " emo-ish ", they were crying all the time. If anything they toned it down a notch in the movies.

[loppy88]

The fact you took my post about people on the internet whining about inconsequential things because they have nothing else in their lives, and proceeding to do exactly that is... well, its something.

The source material, that people so claim to love (to the point of disgusting worship of it, even while some clearly don't actually know it all that well), is still there. It will forever be there. If someone makes a movie/TV series/whatever that ends up being bad, you move the fuck on and just go back to the source that remains untouched. You don't cry for months and months, in this case over something that is still months away from even airing, and fill your life with it just so you can be mad at something. Unless, as I said, you have fuck all else going on in your life.

For instance, I've wanted to see a screen adaptation of The Riftwar Cycle, which is about 30 books, for around 2 decades (roughly when I first started reading it). The author has held out for what he feels is the best deal, with the best people, this entire time. There was news earlier this year that there was now going to be a TV series that adapts the first 6 books. Am I looking forward to it? Absolutely. Will I cry on a gaming forum for months before it airs and months after it finishes if it isn't done exactly as I want it or think it should be done? Hell no. I'm a functioning adult with better shit to worry about.

TL;DR Be a grown up and get over it.

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So, it is about diversity and inclusion, and you do care if they put an "asian wheelchair bound wizzard" in there... and clearly not about a "good story."

Meh, never change I guess

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It's racism when people see basic concepts like "diversity is our strength" and assume it's virtue signaling because it happens to involve non-white actors. That theme comes up over and over again in Jackson's movies. Probably the biggest example is a scene which Tolkien purists no-doubt lost their shit over: when the elves show up at Helm's Deep. The development of the friendship between Gimli and Legolas, despite the racial animus the two shared at the beginning of the story, is also a huge part of it. And it goes right down to "even the smallest person can change the course of history" (another change/addition which undoubtedly enraged those for whom nothing would have been acceptable but a shot-for-shot adaptation of the novels). What idiots on the internet call "virtue signaling," everyone else just calls "storytelling."

You assume racism, what I see is companies avoiding responsibilities for their failures. Imagine saying my product doesn't suck, it's the consumers who are wrong.

[s_bushido]

You assume racism, what I see is companies avoiding responsibilities for their failures. Imagine saying my product doesn't suck, it's the consumers who are wrong.

Shit's not even out yet, and people are already convinced it sucks. What else are studios supposed to think when the reasons given are *checks notes* black elves, beardless female dwarves, and Elrond with short hair?

[Xath]

I will continue to be a well adjusted adult, sure.

I'm sure you'll continue to scream into the void about things that don't really matter.

All is well with the world.

Being a well adjusted adult is spending all day trolling on a wow forum about non wow topics :P