So, uh... anyone defending Sylvanas anymore? (SPOILERS!!!)

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't bother arguing with him, he is a brick wall and he is as Horde biased as they come on this forum.

Remember, that if common sense doesn't benefit the Alliance, it's Horde bias!

[GetCrunk]

Don't bother arguing with him, he is a brick wall and he is as Horde biased as they come on this forum.

where is stated that horde and alliance are a unite in that battel ?

[Gawdzilla]

My biggest beef is that Blizz has done a shit job doing anything other than make Sylvanas come as evil. She's bad no argument there and she works fine as the token "evil teammate" in the Horde...but you replaced Vol'jin with her and did nothing new with her. They say Sylvanas has allies within the Horde...and to which I have to ask who specifically backs Sylvanas in the Horde?

-Saurfang's gunna jump ship after Lorderaon

-Baine is already suspicious/wary of her

-Lor'themar is the same too

-Gallywix is just in it for the money, so he's not really "loyal" per say

Like the only leader who is loyal is Nathanos and that's partly because he's tapping dat undead ass or vice versa (its complicated...Sylvanas herself admitted to it)

[Tabrotar]

I must have missed the part where Sylvanas can hear across an entire field, my mistake.



And you seriously think a human instigating a conflict is safe because 'You said no human would die?"



Only because Calia started a conflict in which Sylvanas thought she had uncovered a defection plot. It's almost like context is important.



She wants peace for the Horde, that means crippling the Alliance, that's like Saying Jaina didn't have any plan for lasting peace because she wanted Varian to dismantle the Horde.

Sylvanas's idea of peace is realistic in the fact that you don't let an enemy nation build up it's power alongside yours, you beat it into submission or until it can no longer field troops across multiple fronts, then you sue for peace because they are no longer a threat.



Anyone who doesn't kiss the ground the Alliance walk's on or puts themselves in a weaker position to make Anduin happy is evil apparently, got it. Why would anyone in their right mind put what the Alliance want's first, and vice versa? Sylvanas holds no obligation to Anduin to the Alliance, and Anduin holds none to the Horde.

You do know that SHE aka the leader of the council SHOUTED for retreat and to go back to Sylvanas?

Maybe just maybe read the fucking spoilers before complaining here about nonexistential bullshit.

But who i´m kidding that´s what you, Meruhnes and Arasshi are always doing.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You do know that SHE aka the leader of the council SHOUTED for retreat and to go back to Sylvanas?

Maybe just maybe read the fucking spoilers before complaining here about nonexistential bullshit.

But who i´m kidding that´s what you, Meruhnes and Arasshi are always doing.

I think everyone here has read them, you're just as usual wearing blinders to anything outside of your own biased opinion.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

Sylvanas's idea of peace is realistic

And Anduin's is idealistic. It'd be nice to see this be the point of contention. Tyrande, Genn and Jaina wanting a realistic peace for the Alliance (by crushing the Horde into the dirt) and Baine, Lorthemar and Saurfang wanting an 'idealistic' peace for the Horde by joining Anduin in a hugbox. With the best result being the factions fall apart because they are total shit and BFA is the steaming 'frosting' on the shitcake.

[Tabrotar]

I think everyone here has read them, you're just as usual wearing blinders to anything outside of your own biased opinion.

So you claiming that she couldn´t her hear is now me being biased and wearing blinders?

What´s next, it´s my fault that Sylvanas acted the way she acts because i don´t like her or what?

[Shibito]

Do alliance players do anything outside whining about sylvanas and high elves?

Infracted.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So you claiming that she couldn´t her hear is now me being biased and wearing blinders?

What´s next, it´s my fault that Sylvanas acted the way she acts because i don´t like her or what?

Even if Sylvanas could hear her, it didn't change what she said to Nathanos, you know if you actually read what you claimed what others didn't do.

[Tabrotar]

Even if Sylvanas could hear her, it didn't change what she said to Nathanos, you know if you actually read what you claimed what others didn't do.

Oh you mean the part where she stated that she can´t let them life because there maybe MAYBE would be some under them who aren´t happy about her style of leadership?

So just like a real tyrant would do it.

So i´m really really glad you come to understand me and agree with me.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Oh you mean the part where she stated that she can´t let them life because there maybe MAYBE would be some under them who aren´t happy about her style of leadership?

So just like a real tyrant would do it.

So i´m really really glad you come to understand me and agree with me.

If you have to twist someone's argument and then be arrogant enough to say "you agree with me" Then once again, you prove yourself not worth an actual discussion. Once again that splended adulthood you brag about.

[Zulkhan]

Oh, you mean how the nature loving tauren spread the plague that destroys nature and damages mother earth, you know their main religious figure?

Druids are nature-loving, Tauren's culture is literally the same as Orcs minus the war-like mindset.

Sylvanas apparently doesn't want a new Darkspear leader

Nonsense.

A lot of them were just civilians, really. What amount of betrayal could they actually accomplish?

While you may have a point, punishing betrayers mean punishing them based on their treacherous actions, not their supposed amount of usefulness. And defecting to join the rival superpower, enemy of not just the Forsaken but the entirety of the Horde, is treacherous indeed.

Undead in WoW are abnormally strong

They really don't seem so, maybe even the contrary. The blatant lack of muscle tissue is an "issue" addressed even in Before The Storm, IIRC. Then again, Undead are abnormally resilient for sure.

Found one.

Oh you sure did, considering that guy complaing about "hetero fanboys who love elves" is one of the several posters who shitbarraged me with tons of nonsense simply for criticizing the overabundance of elven content in WoW (which is not even good content most of the times but still count).

1. The Forsaken don't actually have free will. At the very least it's very limited, or just an illusion. When they're raised it compels them to follow, serve and obey. Even Voss, the one example people have to say that undead can have their own lives free from the Forsaken is now their biggest cheerleader and acting like something was wrong with her mind at the time because she was striving to fight it.

Except you're headcanoning pretty hard. The Desolate Council's existence proved this theory wrong, completely. Plus, we've seen many undead leaving the Forsaken to join different organizations. What's not ok is obviously trying to defect to join the Alliance and also be a little dishonest shit about it.

2. Horde honour is officially and cannonically dead. The Horde are breaking into old Alliance tombs in order to find the bodies of their greatest war heroes to raise into undeath to serve them as slaves. I can't see how any of the other Horde races can have fallen so much that they think this is ok. Seriously? Orcs are OK now with desecrating fallen war heroes that died in battle?

Slaves? IIRC the whole purpose was to interrogate those people. The difference in Sylvanas' approach is that she holds the means to make even the dead talk.

But they weren't. Not until after they noticed the Goblins mining Azerite.

So even this conflict - your "nuclear arms race" - was started by the Horde.

And yet you probably believe that the Horde was the one starting the Ashran conflict. Am I wrong?

That's the MMOC lore subsection in a nutshell.

Luckily it is only a select few that do this and most people have no problem about pointing out the bad things about the characters and faction they like.

Yep, because the guy you quoted is totally one of the enlightened unbiased people, a guy who still genuinely believes the Broken Shore fiasco was a "Horde betrayal" even though the lore is fucking beating on everyone's head that it was not, even within the last novel.

When the fate of the world is the prize, yeah, she should worry about the Alliance as much as she worries about the Horde.

Not if your Warchief literally demands that you save the Horde.

You have no clue how reality works.

Holy shit, said the guy suggesting "consultations" to take place while people are busy fighting a ginormous demonic army and mostly getting wrecked by it.

Playable Forsaken are evil no matter how you try to flip it.
There are good NPC amog Forsaken? Ofc
But actually if you remember any "fucked up" forsaken quest, you already can see how evil they are [the forsaken player]


Also the amount of "blight" and enviroment dmg is another red flag.

Give me a break, all PCs are nothing but amoral scumbags.

- - - Updated - - -

OT: I'm going with "still my Warchief" mostly because I'm not seeing another Garrosh in her and that's more than enough for me. On the other hand, I have no idea what Blizzard intends to do with her and I'm growing slightly irritated the more I look at the consequences of this "Warchief Sylvanas" plot and wondering, at this point, about its actual necessity besides justifying another faction war occurring for pretty uninspired reasons.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

She's a self centered, psychopathic control freak who:

- Resurrects people, and then FORCES them to serve her or murder them. Again!
- Invades a neutral kingdom unprovoked and slaughters thousands of innocent people and offers them the same so called "choice".
- Launches an invasion of another neutral territory to kidnap and force one of their deities into serving her, so that she can resurrect more people and then proceed to murder them if they refuse to do so. Not to mention, how many innocent she killed on the way.
- Plots another invasion with the entire purpose revolving around slaughtering the civilian population and then - AGAIN! - giving them life again... only to force them to serve her or be murdered.
- She's a liar: she claims that the Forsaken are built upon free will, but her actions say otherwise, as the above has proved several times. If the Forsaken truly had free will, then she wouldn't have murdered the people who wanted out of her bloodsoaked war machine.
- Gasses her own soldiers because she wants to spite the Alliance that badly, even though the remaining Horde forces would've been spared had they surrendered. The Alliance can't establish a city in an underwater sewer complex anyways.
- Massacres yet another innocent village because they might decide to join the Alliance.

At least you could somewhat root for Garrosh; at least he was trying to recreate an idealic Horde he had only heard of in the whitewashed stories told by his elders.

[Friendlyimmolation]

- Resurrects people, and then FORCES them to serve her or murder them. Again!

For some people, taking five minutes to do the Forsaken starting zone is too hard.

- Invades a neutral kingdom unprovoked and slaughters thousands of innocent people and offers them the same so called "choice".

How dare Sylvanas invade a city under orders. Also aside from Godfrey and the two others, which Gilnaens did she plan to raise?

- Launches an invasion of another neutral territory to kidnap and force one of their deities into serving her, so that she can resurrect more people and then proceed to murder them if they refuse to do so. Not to mention, how many innocent she killed on the way.

How dare Sylvanas hold the needs of her own people above others. Oh wait, every single semi realisitc leader will bloody others to safeguard their own.

- She's a liar: she claims that the Forsaken are built upon free will, but her actions say otherwise, as the above has proved several times. If the Forsaken truly had free will, then she wouldn't have murdered the people who wanted out of her bloodsoaked war machine.

I nor anyone should have to explain to you that free will is not free reign, and that there are consequences to actions.

- Gasses her own soldiers because she wants to spite the Alliance that badly, even though the remaining Horde forces would've been spared had they surrendered. The Alliance can't establish a city in an underwater sewer complex anyways.

Yes, because the Horde would have surrendered. And I guess you've never heard of scorched earth. She deprived the Alliance of a Strategic asset and made them pay dearly for it. How dare she not throw the war then and there.

- Massacres yet another innocent village because they might decide to join the Alliance.

You haven't been paying very much attention, the Villiages were already the Alliance's supply of food in Kultiras.

It's like you based your opinions off of poorly made cliff notes.

[NatePsy]

I've become quite a bit disillusioned with the Horde after 10+ years of playing them on mains/alts through the years and it's finally reached that point through the terrible lore written for the Horde. There's a constant flip flop between "Lets have honour" and "Fuck all honour, all the death, including our own races." We saw honour with Thrall's reign and then that quickly broke apart when Garrosh broke code and fucked over the other races before Vol'jin took the reins, honour was established yet again only to have that take a 180 with Sylvanas and her recent act of killing Orcs, Trolls and Tauren battling Alliance at the front gate of UC with the blight.

Pick a damn value and stick with it, this constant flip flopping is inconsistent with the faction and it's identity to the point of asking "Why the fuck should I bother with Horde anymore?" Also I want to start seeing more story development of Baine and Lor'themar and how they're taking Sylvanas' recent actions, to really drive the point that these other leaders aren't okay with this type of erratic behavior, just as they weren't okay with Garrosh' erratic behavior.

Sylvanas' backers can say "Horde is no longer about honour" and what not but the majority of the races and their respective leaders are with morals for the most part and the Warchief's actions go firmly against most of these leaders' beliefs, her role in the future should go back to race leader to let someone diplomatic take over. There's a time for war and there's a time for inaction. The events after the defeat of Sargeras are most certainly not ripe for starting another war, those actions are rife with stupidity and they are unwise. I'm betting my bottom dollar that it will play out to show how stupid she was for starting a war while Azeroth was severely weakened through the rise of the Void lords or Old Gods.

At this point, what do I do? I'm strongly considering a turn to Alliance for the first time in 10+ years, as I was originally Alliance at the start of my lifetime of WoW.

[MechaCThun]

Amazing how far some of you people go to insult/flame/argue with each other over a fictional character. Ignore lists filled and report post links spammed, yet still all I've read in the past 10 pages is people who can't stand when their opinions aren't validated nor taken for fact.

[ManiaCCC]

Do alliance players do anything outside whining about sylvanas and high elves?

You are asking too much of them buddy.

Amazing how far some of you people go to insult/flame/argue with each other over a fictional character. Ignore lists filled and report post links spammed, yet still all I've read in the past 10 pages is people who can't stand when their opinions aren't validated nor taken for fact.

Does this morale "talkie" ever worked for you?

[MechaCThun]

Does this morale "talkie" ever worked for you?

If people observe and acknowledge, then yes.

[Master Guns]

If she'd let the forsaken back into society they'd start spreading ideas that she really doesn't want spreading. Sylvanas did right by killing them before they could become a threat.

That's true, in one light, but that one light is sadistic and twisted, and most certainly not "morally grey".

[mickybrighteyes]

- Gasses her own soldiers because she wants to spite the Alliance that badly, even though the remaining Horde forces would've been spared had they surrendered. The Alliance can't establish a city in an underwater sewer complex anyways.

you know... much of the rest of your post was obviously biased... but this part here.

Given how we've seen Alliance forces handling Horde survivors, you still think they'd take prisoners? Suarfang and high profile types, sure. Rank and file grunts? Did rogers and genn not show up at the battle?