Balance Changes - Build 26707

[huth]

It may be high, but it does not fill the gap in our defensive toolkit. Given that it's the only DR option we have from talents, it could be stronger.

At least we get one at all. Quite a few specs have none whatsoever.

[lappee]

Will guardian affinity's active frenzied regen still be used when it only gives 25% of health over 5 seconds? I doubt it. This leaves us only with resto affinity actives.

Everyone uses Starsurge, not everyone uses Rejuvenation, so that doesn't make much sense. It isn't a loss to ignore an ability that is not worth using. If you look at resto affinity actives... Swiftmend has some worth, but it heals only marginally more than regrowth, takes you out of Moonkin form and having it as an option costs you 6% passive DR, which we've established is strong. Yet, the active from guardian affinity, Frenzied Regen is now practically worthless. Regrowth heals for more in less globals.

But I'm not advocating that the actives are removed - just that the passives are buffed, since that's mostly what Affinities are for at the high end.

Sure we'll use Frenzy regen, it just won't be as strong as it currently is.

Everyone should use Starsurge, just as everyone taking resto affinity should use its healing toolkit when one needs healing and ain't getting it from outside sources. The abilities given by affinities are worth using in certain situations, Starsurge isn't favourable in every situation either.

It really comes down whether you know how to play and use your toolkit or not. Affinities are strong, both passive and active effects are in daily use by people who know how to use them. There just isn't a good reason to buff them.

[Lunardark]

Everyone should use Starsurge, just as everyone taking resto affinity should use its healing toolkit when one needs healing and ain't getting it from outside sources. The abilities given by affinities are worth using in certain situations, Starsurge isn't favourable in every situation either.

Comparing the frequency of use of a core rotational spell to an extremely situational self healing spell is strange. They aren't really analogous. There are are two scenarios when DPSing: AOE and single target. Starsurge is useful in half of those scenarios by everyone. The scenario in which Frenzied Regen is useful would be considered niche at best. You would need to be spell locked, out of mana, or unable to DPS and forced to move for 5 seconds while high raid damage is going out. This is an example of a situational spell that would be used rarely and not by everyone, in maybe 1 out of 100 scenarios that require self healing. Starsurge being useful in 1/2 of DPS scenarios makes it very good. Frenzied regen being useful in 1/100 self healing scenarios makes it very weak.

Swiftmend is the only useful spell for the purpose of this discussion, since feral Affinity has no defensive utility. But even then, there is an opportunity cost. Taking it means forgoing 6% DR and losing moonkin form. But yes, if you are dying and Swiftmend would save you, then using it is a good idea. Swiftmend is the only useful active out of the guardian and resto affinities.

Just because a minority of people find the occasional use for affinity actives does not make them strong. They are flavor talents intended to provide offspec capabilities, but fall severely short of that mark. Affinities are just sort of there. If they were to be removed tomorrow, the only reason you would miss them is because of their "flavor," not their utility. But even then, they aren't very flavorful when it's so difficult to find a use for them. It has the opposite effect. It makes them feel hollow. Charm Woodland creature has more druidic flavor than most affinity actives. It is always useful when taming cute woodland critters.

[lappee]

Comparing the frequency of use of a core rotational spell to an extremely situational self healing spell is strange. They aren't really analogous. There are are two scenarios when DPSing: AOE and single target. Starsurge is useful in half of those scenarios by everyone. The scenario in which Frenzied Regen is useful would be considered niche at best. You would need to be spell locked, out of mana, or unable to DPS and forced to move for 5 seconds while high raid damage is going out. This is an example of a situational spell that would be used rarely and not by everyone, in maybe 1 out of 100 scenarios that require self healing. Starsurge being useful in 1/2 of DPS scenarios makes it very good. Frenzied regen being useful in 1/100 self healing scenarios makes it very weak.

Swiftmend is the only useful spell for the purpose of this discussion, since feral Affinity has no defensive utility. But even then, there is an opportunity cost. Taking it means forgoing 6% DR and losing moonkin form. But yes, if you are dying and Swiftmend would save you, then using it is a good idea. Swiftmend is the only useful active out of the guardian and resto affinities.

Just because a minority of people find the occasional use for affinity actives does not make them strong. They are flavor talents intended to provide offspec capabilities, but fall severely short of that mark. Affinities are just sort of there. If they were to be removed tomorrow, the only reason you would miss them is because of their "flavor," not their utility. But even then, they aren't very flavorful when it's so difficult to find a use for them. It has the opposite effect. It makes them feel hollow. Charm Woodland creature has more druidic flavor than most affinity actives. It is always useful when taming cute woodland critters.

I'm not comparing the frequency of use, I'm comparing the usefulness when used correctly. Starsurge is always useful to use, yet its not the best option. Frenzied regen is always useful to use when you've taken damage yet is it worth using is another matter completely, people consider it a niche at high level raiding gameplay because they rely on healers but if you consider any other aspect of the game it becomes less and less niche.
Are the spells 1 to 1 comparable? of course not, but the comparison does illustrate my point that its up to the person to use spells correctly to get benefit out of them.

Swiftmend, Rejuvenation and Healing Touch are all useful and fill the same role, whether you feel like you need to use them is another matter completely. Frenzied regen is comparable to Switmend in usage. Feral affinity doesn't provide (outside of passive) heal/defensive utilities since its a DPS spec affinity so no surprise there.

Minority find occasional use for affinities but majority find regular use for them because they are strong. They indeed are flavor talents for druids to get in touch of other aspects of druidism but that doesn't mean they're bad talents. If affinities were to be removed we'd miss their utility unless it was given in other form, then we'd just miss the flavor of druidism. If you find it difficult to find usage for affinities then the problem really is at your end.

Charm Woodland creature is always useful when taming cute woodland critters, great logic right there but let me copy it - All affinities are always useful when you're using them, beat that.

[elynos]

From what I’ve seen boomkin feels great to play but doesn’t do damage/ does less than the tank

[Kyanion]

From what I’ve seen boomkin feels great to play but doesn’t do damage/ does less than the tank

Don't worry about damage right now. Those types of balancing patches are still upcoming.

[elynos]

Don't worry about damage right now. Those types of balancing patches are still upcoming.

One can hope, blizz waited till 7.1.5 to fix our damage in legion.

[naeblis495]

so FOE got it's cd reduced to 1 min cd so it will with cd so that's mighty cool

[Polarthief]

so FOE got it's cd reduced to 1 min cd so it will with cd so that's mighty cool

Nerfs GCD on cooldowns to nerf cooldown stacking. Intentionally stacks our cooldowns.

I'll never understand Blizzard sometimes.

[lappee]

Nerfs GCD on cooldowns to nerf cooldown stacking. Intentionally stacks our cooldowns.

I'll never understand Blizzard sometimes.

One is a CD that deals damage, the other is a buff. The problem with CD stacking was buff stacking like with warriors (Avatar, Recklessness, Blood bath).

[huth]

We were never part of the cooldown stacking issue anyway.

Different specs, what is that? /s

[Commandor]

I have always had this vision for affinities.

Along with passive abilities, activation X affinity grants you a 30-60 seconds window into that ability, which you have had preselected the talents for before fight (basically it activates the X talent build of Feral/Guradian/Resto for 30-60 seconds. I always believed that would be a much better approach and more tangible for active talent portion with all talents being possible (except longer than 1 minute CDs)

[huth]

I have always had this vision for affinities.

Along with passive abilities, activation X affinity grants you a 30-60 seconds window into that ability, which you have had preselected the talents for before fight (basically it activates the X talent build of Feral/Guradian/Resto for 30-60 seconds. I always believed that would be a much better approach and more tangible for active talent portion with all talents being possible (except longer than 1 minute CDs)

That would really just reintroduce the issue that got Heart of the Wild removed.

[Commandor]

That would really just reintroduce the issue that got Heart of the Wild removed.

How so if the major constraint to keep the talent in check and yet make it extremely appealing and integrative with the toolkit is the limited activation time to X seconds?

[Lyvefire]

How so if the major constraint to keep the talent in check and yet make it extremely appealing and integrative with the toolkit is the limited activation time to X seconds?

Because that's exactly the same as Heart of the Wild?

Though I strongly disagreed with it's removal for what its worth.

[huth]

Yeah, you've pretty much nailed the duration as well. HotW was 45 seconds on a 6 min CD.

[Commandor]

Because that's exactly the same as Heart of the Wild?

Though I strongly disagreed with it's removal for what its worth.

HoTW granted all three benefits, what I am suggesting, is that you chose one affinity, and you activate that affinitie's build for X seconds. I really think it would be extremely interesting and useful.

[huth]

HoTW granted all three benefits, what I am suggesting, is that you chose one affinity, and you activate that affinitie's build for X seconds. I really think it would be extremely interesting and useful.

You generally knew ahead of time which one you would need, though. So the restriction wouldn't do much.

[Slippykins]

One can hope, blizz waited till 7.1.5 to fix our damage in legion.

Damage tuning always happens late into the beta. Expect damage numbers to change late July/early August. Until then, feedback is best aimed at how the spec and rotation feels on a design level.

[Deleted]

Could anyone provide any early information on what stat balances are looking like for AoE and ST?