Before the Storm [Spoilers]

[Arrashi]

To be fair, how does having a magical PTSD make you a Mary Sue? It's a pain that occurs based on *his* feelings (this is important, as it turns those pains from a special ability into something more akin to PTSD) and might or might not even be correct as Anduin isn't omniscient by any means.

The fact that he literally can do no wrong now.

[Hubbl3]

This book seems like a waste, even with considering the original comments by the OP on reddit.

[Deleted]

Anduin's spider sense gives him a raging... clue when someone is lying?

[Necroxis]

sigh. Anduin does not have spider sense. He has a conscience. All that is shown in the book is his inner turmoil on choices he makes and his old wounds hurting him as an intuition like an old person whose bones hurt before a storm.

ANY other interpretation is just down to the authors inability to write and the readers inability to read.

Every single criticism about Anduin is exaggerated tenfold by his detractors so I don't expect anybody to be realistic here.

I mean the second the Saurfang stuff was datamined you had people here and on the official forums losing their shit and calling him an Alliance bootlicker, Anduin's lapdog, a traitor, ectectect. When literally all he said was that he didn't want to go back to the Horde when Sylvanas was running it.

Every single thing revolving dislike or hated (Or even just disagreement) of Sylvanas by any character in this story gets met by fanatical, insane backlash by the same group of people every time. Whether its Anduin, Genn, Jaina, Saurfang, Baine, or anybody else.

[Tharivor]

Nice to read that Sylvanas still genuinely cares about the Forsaken- she sounds much more sympathetic (if a little mad though I guess that's to be expected considering she's Forsaken) than you would believe from reading this forum.

[Teddybearavenger]

Anduin rebukes Genn and Rogers for saving his sorry bacon from having to deal with an army of Val'kyr that would bring Stormwind's power down to the level of the Westfall farmer garrison. The Divine Bell must've left permanent braindamage.

Also since when did Calia have a husband?

no one knew about the events. They all happpened at the same time. How do you expect Genn or Anduin to know about this? This is just terrible storytelling in and out for them in Legion into BFA. There is no in before,between or after of logic

[Torto]

Ha, and people want Baine to be the next Warchief, what a joke.

I hoped that Blizz would fix him after what they did to him in Cata, it seems that they're just doubling down and keeping him as an Ally bootlicker.

I get a bit confused as to what Horde players want in a Warchief. Garrosh and Sylvaanas are batshit crazy warmongers and people don't want to follow them. Thrall was a green Jesus Mary Sue, don't want to follow him. Vol'jin was a boring leader who never really inspired anyone. Baine is a weak Alliance ass licker, don't want to follow him...

Just what type of character do Horde players want? Seems Blizzard is on an ass kicking to nowhere no matter who they make Warchief.

[Hubbl3]

I get a bit confused as to what Horde players want in a Warchief. Garrosh and Sylvaanas are batshit crazy warmongers and people don't want to follow them. Thrall was a green Jesus Mary Sue, don't want to follow him. Vol'jin was a boring leader who never really inspired anyone. Baine is a weak Alliance ass licker, don't want to follow him...

Just what type of character do Horde players want? Seems Blizzard is on an ass kicking to nowhere no matter who they make Warchief.

I'm okay with Sylvanas, and I was also okay with Garrosh. We could've stick with Garrosh but Blizz decided he was at some point also a threat for the Horde and left basically no choice as to bring him down. >.> 10/10 story telling.

[Tharivor]

I get a bit confused as to what Horde players want in a Warchief. Garrosh and Sylvaanas are batshit crazy warmongers and people don't want to follow them. Thrall was a green Jesus Mary Sue, don't want to follow him. Vol'jin was a boring leader who never really inspired anyone. Baine is a weak Alliance ass licker, don't want to follow him...

Just what type of character do Horde players want? Seems Blizzard is on an ass kicking to nowhere no matter who they make Warchief.

Someone who will stand up to the Alliance without going crazy? Even the Alliance's "fanatical" characters like Genn and Jania get to remain virtuous, but Horde players constantly have to choose between characters that think the Alliance can do no wrong and are unwilling to fight them, or crazy maniacs like Garrosh or now Sylvanas.

Though personally I don't mind Sylvanas I can see why players are frustrated.

[Necroxis]

Baine gets hate, like Saurfang, because he doesn't kiss Sylvanas' ass. Also those people who hate Baine hate everything that has to do with Anduin, so because Baine is a peacemaker and has canonically been Anduin's friend since Cataclysm, he's also awful.

Baine is a weak Alliance ass licker, don't want to follow him...

A great example.

What the hell did Baine ever do that made him an 'Alliance ass licker?' The fact that he was friends with Anduin years before Anduin became any kind of Alliance leader? The fact that he's not an insane warmonger? Can people on each faction not at least speak to one another anymore without them being considered sycophants of the other faction?

[GetCrunk]

Every single criticism about Anduin is exaggerated tenfold by his detractors so I don't expect anybody to be realistic here.

I mean the second the Saurfang stuff was datamined you had people here and on the official forums losing their shit and calling him an Alliance bootlicker, Anduin's lapdog, a traitor, ectectect. When literally all he said was that he didn't want to go back to the Horde when Sylvanas was running it.

Every single thing revolving dislike or hated (Or even just disagreement) of Sylvanas by any character in this story gets met by fanatical, insane backlash by the same group of people every time. Whether its Anduin, Genn, Jaina, Saurfang, Baine, or anybody else.

When you are a part of an nation an a Leader you don't say I want to be part of this because is I don't like how is done and the Warchief title is not there because sounds good is the supreme commander his orders are to follow even if you don't like them. Saurfang decided that he won't come back to her Horde this cowardice when you are the leader of the orcs and you abandon them because you don't like you boss. And the Horde now is written very week we have Saurfang that is a suicidal coward and Bain is Anduins bitch when he's people wanted revenge for Camp Tautajo they where exiled only for saying not acting on it but when the Genn and Rogers attack the Horde they got a slap on the wrist and on Genn flurry paw and bad dogo, maybe this happens when you leader is Messiah and can't do wrong.

[Necroxis]

and Bain is Anduins bitch when he's people wanted revenge for Camp Tautajo they where exiled only for saying not acting on it

Why the constant exaggeration?

Also the fact that the Horde kill General Hawthone...does that not count as revenge even though Hawthorne purposefully left open spots so civilians could escape and then actively sent Alliance members to arrest the people looting the town? Hawthorne is dead by Horde hands, the discussion was never about denying the Horde vengeance. It was about whether or not Taurajo was a legitimate target.

I'd agree if you were to say Baine is kind of bland and hasn't been developed much. Then yes, obviously. And he's basically just a carbon copy of his father for some reason. But to pretend he's subservient to the Alliance or Anduin's pawn or whatever else is just ridiculous. Was Thrall Jaina's bitch from War 3 - Wrath for them being friends? Or the other way around? Is Velen just everybody's bitch because he advocated for peace and cooperation to fight the Legion? The idea is ridiculous.

Maybe this is why Blizzard just gave up and started giving the Horde pure fanservice in their leadership. Because striving for peace is seen as weak for some reason and any time a Horde leader wants to stop murdering the other faction they get called the Alliance's bitch.

[Varodoc]

Nice to read that Sylvanas still genuinely cares about the Forsaken- she sounds much more sympathetic (if a little mad though I guess that's to be expected considering she's Forsaken) than you would believe from reading this forum.

Caring about your people is often a path that leads to damnation in this franchise.

Arthas cared about his people. Kil'jaeden cared about his people. Kael'thas cared about his people. Garrosh cared about his people. Even Sargeras cared about his people.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, this is a 180° turn for Sylvanas' character. Sylvanas never considered Undeath a 'blessing', in fact her most popular and iconic quotes, which date back to Warcraft III, are 'What joy is there in this curse?' and 'What are we if not slaves to this torment?'. That was the entire point of Sylvanas' character. She utterly despised her current condition, but accepted it nonetheless because it meant that she had the chance to kill the one responsible for it.

But now Sylvanas actually considers Undeath a higher state of existence and even believes that Humanity is a burden?! Nonsense. The real Sylvanas would never seek to inflict Undeath upon others UNLESS IT WAS STRICLY NECESSARY TO ENSURE HER OWN SURVIVAL. But inflicting Undeath upon the people of Stormwind is not vital to her survival. It is just bloodshed painted as righteousness, as if she were doing a favour to those innocents by 'freeing' them of their Humanity and twisting them into abominations.

Sure, a living person will have to do living chores like eating, resting and sleeping. But at least they won't be ugly and rotting corpses held together by a foul sorcery and constantly tormented by remorse and agony.

[Necroxis]

Also, this is a 180° turn for Sylvanas' character. Sylvanas never considered Undeath a 'blessing', in fact her most popular and iconic quotes, which date back to Warcraft III, are 'What joy is there in this curse?' and 'What are we if not slaves to this torment?'. That was the entire point of Sylvanas' character. She despised her current condition, but accepted it nonetheless because it meant that she had the chance to kill the one responsible for it.

But now Sylvanas actually considers Undeath a higher state of existence and even believes that Humanity is a burden?! Nonsense. The real Sylvanas would never seek to inflict Undeath upon others UNLESS IT WAS STRICLY NECESSARY TO ENSURE HER OWN SURVIVAL. But inflicting Undeath upon the people of Stormwind is not vital to her survival. It is just bloodshed painted as righteousness, as if she were doing a favour to those innocents by 'freeing' them of their Humanity and twisting them into abominations.

Sure, a living person will have to do living chores like eating, resting and sleeping. But at least they won't be ugly and rotting corpses held together by a foul sorcery and constantly tormented by remorse and agony.

Yup it sure doesn't make a lot of sense. She became the leader of these disgusting monsters that suddenly had their free will return because they had nobody else to turn to and she led them to safety when plenty of groups around them would have murdered (Garithos) or subjugated them again (The Dreadlords). She wasn't gleefully resurrecting people from the dead. As you said she constantly bemoaned her fate and how horrible it was.

They're throwing her entire old character out the window for this one dimensional villain trope, and her old character was the good Sylvanas character. It makes no sense whatsoever and if the ultimate cause for all of these random characters acting completely contrary to what they used to be is just "N'zoth did it" or "Azerite did it" then I think Blizzard is severely miscalculating how much people are going to buy that lazy response. Because it ultimately seems like they're just destroying established character traits to make characters fight other characters or factions they normally wouldn't. And that's super trash-tier writing.

[GetCrunk]

Why the constant exaggeration?

Also the fact that the Horde kill General Hawthone...does that not count as revenge even though Hawthorne purposefully left open spots so civilians could escape and then actively sent Alliance members to arrest the people looting the town? Hawthorne is dead by Horde hands, the discussion was never about denying the Horde vengeance. It was about whether or not Taurajo was a legitimate target.

I'd agree if you were to say Baine is kind of bland and hasn't been developed much. Then yes, obviously. And he's basically just a carbon copy of his father for some reason. But to pretend he's subservient to the Alliance or Anduin's pawn or whatever else is just ridiculous. Was Thrall Jaina's bitch from War 3 - Wrath for them being friends? Or the other way around? Is Velen just everybody's bitch because he advocated for peace and cooperation to fight the Legion? The idea is ridiculous.

Maybe this is why Blizzard just gave up and started giving the Horde pure fanservice in their leadership. Because striving for peace is seen as weak for some reason and any time a Horde leader wants to stop murdering the other faction they get called the Alliance's bitch.

Yes the Horde did what Bain could not do, they got justice for Camp Taurajo

[Florena]

Yes yes I know someone will cry "Muh free will" but free will doesn't mean you can betray. Take US civil war, if people walked north from Union to go to British North America it would be fine. (Or forsaken the Argents). But walking to join Confederacy (Alliance) would have you with bullet holes in your back.

Sure, but people saying Sylvanas is a hypocrite about free will don't really need this as an example.

[Necroxis]

Yes the Horde did what Bain could not do, they got justice for Camp Taurajo

What? Because the Horde player is the one who killed Hawthorne? If you want to make this argument you need to apply this logic to every single faction leader since 99.9% of the time they're not actually doing the work themselves. Baine never said Hawthorne shouldn't have died, by the way.

[Florena]

Yup it sure doesn't make a lot of sense. She became the leader of these disgusting monsters that suddenly had their free will return because they had nobody else to turn to and she led them to safety when plenty of groups around them would have murdered (Garithos) or subjugated them again (The Dreadlords). She wasn't gleefully resurrecting people from the dead. As you said she constantly bemoaned her fate and how horrible it was.

They're throwing her entire old character out the window for this one dimensional villain trope, and her old character was the good Sylvanas character. It makes no sense whatsoever and if the ultimate cause for all of these random characters acting completely contrary to what they used to be is just "N'zoth did it" or "Azerite did it" then I think Blizzard is severely miscalculating how much people are going to buy that lazy response. Because it ultimately seems like they're just destroying established character traits to make characters fight other characters or factions they normally wouldn't. And that's super trash-tier writing.

To be fair this has pretty much been the direction she's been going since cata, BFA isn't a sudden shift in her character.

[Necroxis]

Sure, but people saying Sylvanas is a hypocrite about free will don't really need this as an example.

The factions also weren't even at war yet. They just wanted to run to where Calia was and presumably with their living families.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair this has pretty much been the direction she's been going since cata, BFA isn't a sudden shift in her character.

I agree, but you'll notice virtually everybody who has a problem with current Sylvanas has been saying this for quite a while now and often get told that she's been consistent throughout her time.

Still pulling out the Sargeras/Lich King logic of, "Well if EVERYBODY is dead then we're all fine!" is a jumping the shark moment even for new Sylvanas. It's making a character advocate for something they directly hate and would never, ever, do if written consistently. It's on a level so absurd it'd be as if Velen suddenly started telling everybody they need to become servants of the Void.

Fun fact I was actually about to say, "It'd be on a level so absurd it'd be as if Lilian Voss started turning other people into Forsaken" but then that actually happens in BfA.

[Varodoc]

To be fair this has pretty much been the direction she's been going since cata, BFA isn't a sudden shift in her character.

Sylvanas never acted in such a 'righteous' way in Cataclysm. She didn't think that Undeath was a blessing, she just thought that it was better than Hell. She also never wanted to invade other cities outside of Lordaeron, she just wanted to keep the Alliance out of Lordaeron.

But this new 'righteous' Sylvanas that actually wants to free the living by turning them into Undead (because apparently being zombies is a blessing, not a burden) is nonsense.