"Father,is it...over?"

[Felixon]

Arthas's soul was one of the first to fall to Shadowmourne. The good in him, was effectively trapped by the Lich King. He didn't want to destroy his people, but the effects of wielding Shadowmourne twisted this thinking. By the time he killed Mal'Ganis, he was fully corrupted - having been seduced by the power to destroy his enemies, much like Anakin after he kills Mace Windu.

You mean the Frostmourne.

[Eazy]

If that rocks your boat, ok.

My boat only accepts facts. Don't want to play in the inconsistent world.

Link the thread.Checked the last 5 pages of Lore forum,didn't find any similar thread.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-King-in-Wotlk
It's not exactly the same, but similar.

Well,it's definetely your own,personal interpretation of that cinematic.It can be interpreted the way I saw,the way you saw it etc.

I once tought the same as you, but after reading the book and seeing Blizzard explanations my mind has changed.

I also get tired of explaining to people that in multiple sources of canon, it's stated that Arthas overcame Ner'zhul and was, in fact, solely in control by the time WotLK started.

"But mah headcanonz!" - Those guys, probably.

Some people just don't accept the truth, that would destroy their own imagine world.

He kept Jaina's locket, so there was either some spark of Arthas left deep inside or he planned to make her his Lich Queen. Or both.

Yes of course, we're saying that it was only the Arthas in wotlk times. He may had plans for Jaina back then.

[MechaCThun]

Arthas chose to become what the "Lich King" as an entity was: ruthless, evil, patient and cunning.

By doing this, the title "Lich King" became just that: a title. Arthas embodied everything by choice. He became the Lich King.

In the future, parents will tell their children, "Be a good/girl, or the Lich King Arthas will get you!"

[Eazy]

You can't force consistency. Following your logic, Bolvard Fordragon is now Arthas because Arthas IS Lich King.

Following your thinking Anduin is now Varian, because Varian was the King of Stormwind.

That's a title in the both cases(of course there are some different things, but you get the point).

[Uurdz]

You mean the Frostmourne.

Yes. My bad. Awkward...

[Mehrunes]

It doesn't help that Blizz muddied those waters on their own by having moments like the Lich King saying "I was once a shaman too" or something like that during Wrath questing, as well as the little ghost boy in Icecrown being the humanity he was supposed to have destroyed in the book. Or Tirion declaring there is nothing left of Arthas' humanity and stabbing the heart, when we know the little boy ghost exists and we see that he held onto Jaina's locket. AND that it was speculated that Arthas had held the scourge back when he could have done way more damage. They were so all over the place with Arthas/the Lich King during Wrath that it's hard to tell what they really meant at the time.

Not saying you or that other poster are at all wrong, just that Blizz has been pretty confusing and there is, unhelpfully, evidence in both directions.

Yeah, Blizz made it a clusterfuck. Not only was there the "I was once a Shaman too", but at first in 3.3 they said Ner'zhul's story isn't finished. Only to do a 180 on that a few weeks later and say he's done for. Then came Legion showing echo of Ner'zhul. OK, echo may not be a true part of his soul. But then came Chronicle v3 that talked about Ner'zhul still being there, just beaten into submission.

Same with his humanity. Oh, his soul is just trapped in the Frostmourne. Oh, he killed his humanity in his mind. Oh, he only cut out his humanity together with his heart and cast it away. Oh, the heart his humanity is linked to somehow shows there is no humanity in him left. Oh, he appears to be remorseful when defeated. Oh, Chronicle v3 strikes again and goes back to saying how Arthas was the Lich King and did all of that shit willingly (but with a new twist of him doing so to unite the world to better defend it against the Legion and the Void).

In 3.3 it was said he held back the Scourge with the last of humanity (which was Schroedinger's humanity at that point), only for later part of 3.3 showing he held back the Scourge only for Tirion train the best fighting force for him to raise.

All of that is an inconsistent mess where some individual pieces may fit with each other, but the whole set not so much.

[Izalla]

Yeah, Blizz made it a clusterfuck. Not only was there the "I was once a Shaman too", but at first in 3.3 they said Ner'zhul's story isn't finished. Only to do a 180 on that a few weeks later and say he's done for. Then came Legion showing echo of Ner'zhul. OK, echo may not be a true part of his soul. But then came Chronicle v3 that talked about Ner'zhul still being there, just beaten into submission.

Same with his humanity. Oh, his soul is just trapped in the Frostmourne. Oh, he killed his humanity in his mind. Oh, he only cut out his humanity together with his heart and cast it away. Oh, the heart his humanity is linked to somehow shows there is no humanity in him left. Oh, he appears to be remorseful when defeated. Oh, Chronicle v3 strikes again and goes back to saying how Arthas was the Lich King and did all of that shit willingly (but with a new twist of him doing so to unite the world to better defend it against the Legion and the Void).

In 3.3 it was said he held back the Scourge with the last of humanity (which was Schroedinger's humanity at that point), only for later part of 3.3 showing he held back the Scourge only for Tirion train the best fighting force for him to raise.

All of that is an inconsistent mess where some individual pieces may fit with each other, but the whole set not so much.

This is the worst thing they've done to his character in my opinion. Not every single villain has to have a secret "good guy" plot and his for the greater good by any means necessary methods are what makes him evil. Can't we just let him having some humanity, buried in the cold dead husk of Arthas, struggling to exist but unable to really do anything beyond that because his Lich King persona is too strong and Frostmourne has his soul?

[rarhyx]

#ArthasDidNothingWrong

Chronicles shows that Ner'zhul had full control over Arthas, just like he did many of his undead champions. They were allowed personalities that are dark and twisted, but those are not the real them. Take Anuberak, who was fiercly loyal to the Lich King and called traitor king who when dies, is revealed to not actually be that. Same with Sindragosa and others. It's that Ner'zhul underestimated that one powerful servant of his, the moment he gave him control.

Arthas the prince of Lordaeron is not Arthas the Death Knight and not Arthas the Lich King. Sylvanas and Darion are characters who are more free than he was and they're still corrupted with Sylvanas even saying stuff like "They will server death" about her own sisters.

With what happened with Kerrigan in Starcraft and the big redemption of wow getting used on Illidan, I don't think Arthas is ever coming back and it's so obvious he was set up for a huge redemption.

didn't one of the books ( I think it was one of christi golden or what her name is) say arthas was full control of himself and not brainwashed/corrupted/controlled/played by nerzhul?

which one is newer (or which one is the actual lore?)

i was so upset when I read that arthas was in full controll and did everything and knowing it

[Kallisto]

If that rocks your boat, ok.

So your head canon is more right than the people who objectively by being the authors of the story can't be wrong in any way?

[MikeBogina]

didn't one of the books ( I think it was one of christi golden or what her name is) say arthas was full control of himself and not brainwashed/corrupted/controlled/played by nerzhul?

which one is newer (or which one is the actual lore?)

i was so upset when I read that arthas was in full controll and did everything and knowing it

Chronicles says that Death Knight Arthas was allowed to believe he was in control, but everything he did was the will of the Lich King. Keep in mind that Death Knight Arthas and Lich King Arthas are not actually Arthas, just like how the death knights in Ebonblade broke free of the Scourge, yet still do evil shit, despite some of them being heroes before.

[rarhyx]

Chronicles says that Death Knight Arthas was allowed to believe he was in control, but everything he did was the will of the Lich King. Keep in mind that Death Knight Arthas and Lich King Arthas are not actually Arthas, just like how the death knights in Ebonblade broke free of the Scourge, yet still do evil shit, despite some of them being heroes before.

so basically:
novel says: arthas does everything in full control of himself
chronical says: arthast thinks he does it in full control of himself?

and chronical came after the novel?

I liked to think that arthas was lost once he touched frostmourne and then the novels: lol, nope arthas is just a shithead
and that ruined arthas for me but if thats not the case anymore I think I'm cool with it now

[Volendrung]

He kept Jaina's locket, so there was either some spark of Arthas left deep inside or he planned to make her his Lich Queen. Or both.

Yes. Arthas was still in there. That's what I'm saying. He was the ONLY one left in there.

[Remus88Romulus]

The loss of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination essentially "freed" him from the grasp of the Lich King persona - restoring his essential sanity and probably his humanity in that moment. He became aware of the weight of his actions while he was a Death Knight and the Lich King, and could see everything he had done with fresh (and likely horrified) eyes. That Terenas' spirit was there to see him off to the Shadowlands was probably a small comfort, since the man seemed to bear him no immediate ill will, and Arthas' brief statements seem to relate relief that he was himself, and then dawning realization of what his actions (in life and in unlife) was about to cost him.

It's a sad tableau, but really a perfect ending for Arthas' character.

This, right here ^ Can end the thread now. :-)

When Arthas took frostmourne a evil side of him were born. Good guy Arthas was set aside. It was like he was inside a prison. His good side was always there. Aware. Seeing everything. But the evil corrupted Arthas supressed him completely. Just like Evil Arthas did with Ner'zhul in the Lich King helmet. He assumed complete control over the Lich Kings power and took up the mantle as the one true king.

In the end he asks his father if the nightmare is over, if he is finally freed from this horrible nightmare.

[MrSaggins]

I have a feeling the "it" which was "over" was some sort of possession by whatever forces Sylvanas found in the Hell she visited after her suicide - which was likely not the Void. There always seemed to be a personality separate from Ner'zhul, Arthas and Bolvar that was definitively the Lich King - each of them, and none of them.

Bwansamdi gets stronger with the more souls under his charge, for instance; and the Lightforged are bound to the Light; and the Void Lords want souls too. I'm not saying it's (just) the Loa, but whoever lords over the realm of death probably has some sway.

[Aucald]

I have a feeling the "it" which was "over" was some sort of possession by whatever forces Sylvanas found in the Hell she visited after her suicide - which was likely not the Void. There always seemed to be a personality separate from Ner'zhul, Arthas and Bolvar that was definitively the Lich King - each of them, and none of them.

Bwansamdi gets stronger with the more souls under his charge, for instance; and the Lightforged are bound to the Light; and the Void Lords want souls too. I'm not saying it's (just) the Loa, but whoever lords over the realm of death probably has some sway.

I'm of the mind the "it" in question was more just having to be the Lich King - having his soul contained within the cage that was Frostmourne and his mind crowded with the psychic weight of the collective thoughts of the Scourge via the Helm of Domination. As Tirion and Bolvar view it, this would be an intensely heavy burden; a roiling cast of thousands screaming to you and dependent on your will at all times. As expansive as the Lich King's power might've been it must still be a weight on a previously mortal mind, perhaps its own kind of hell in hindsight once you are allowed to briefly lay the burden down as Arthas did.

[MrSaggins]

I'm of the mind the "it" in question was more just having to be the Lich King - having his soul contained within the cage that was Frostmourne and his mind crowded with the psychic weight of the collective thoughts of the Scourge via the Helm of Domination. As Tirion and Bolvar view it, this would be an intensely heavy burden; a roiling cast of thousands screaming to you and dependent on your will at all times. As expansive as the Lich King's power might've been it must still be a weight on a previously mortal mind, perhaps its own kind of hell in hindsight once you are allowed to briefly lay the burden down as Arthas did.

Ya, whethere there's any sentient Death aspect equivalent to Void Lords at play or not, I agree that the weight of the hive mind would be harsh; and taking off that helm would lift it. When his father's spirit held him I imagine that Arthas was mentally Death Knight Arthas from The Frozen Throne, rather than Paladin Arthas from Reign of Chaos, or Lich King Arthas.

[Aucald]

Ya, whethere there's any sentient Death aspect equivalent to Void Lords at play or not, I agree that the weight of the hive mind would be harsh; and taking off that helm would lift it. When his father's spirit held him I imagine that Arthas was mentally Death Knight Arthas from The Frozen Throne, rather than Paladin Arthas from Reign of Chaos, or Lich King Arthas.

In terms of who he was prior to breathing his final breath, I think he had gone back to the Arthas who had first taken up Frostmourne (before the blade ate his mortal soul, as it were) - a fallen Paladin I guess you'd say, but not yet a true Death Knight. As a Death Knight, at least in WC3, Arthas seems to have no real context to his emotions - he even states when reflecting on his father's murder that he feels nothing. This Arthas, the dying Lich King, appears to be feeling things just fine; relief to lay down the burden and fear as he feels the darkness pressing in all around him. Sometimes a stray emotion would sting the Death Knight version of Arthas, but it had to be a strong one - the dying Arthas at the close of WotLK seems to have tumbled right back into boyhood in many ways, which would fit as that's the state he's in when Sylvanas later encounters his spirit or consciousness in "Edge of Night."

[sam86]

my thought ? Lich King shouldn't lost
After being presented in wc3 as someone who beats any odd no matter how hard it was, see him lose was weird, the scourge had the power to wipe out Azeroth and that was confirmed multiple times, yet his 'ego' was his downfall, he wanted to corrupt us so hard that he ignored us to his last second

I think warcraft would been far better if Lich King won, retook entire Northrend as his playground, and started a serious war with old gods, while alliance/horde are licking their wounds in their homelands, trembling in fear of time when Lich King start his final invasion of Azeroth, that will mark the end of all life form
And no I don't expect him to win that last combat, but Lich King in wrath was a punching bag joke in compare to wc3 arthas, Arthas wc3 didn't lose a single fight, in wrath.. what fight did he win exactly ?

[AlmightyGerkin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUmSpiSInyU starts at 0:30

[Elfezen]

He is not just one the best villains in Warcraft, he is one of the best villains in all literatures, same with Sephiroth from Final Fantasy