The Alliance Hates Goblins

[Jester Joe]

Horde camp in Silithus continues being Horde territory no matter how many times you repeat this fascinating tangent. Just like Alliance Silithus camp in Vanilla was Alliance territory. And none of the factions has to tell the other they are mining something.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that there was a Cenarion Camp there. Drop a boulder on someone's house, and try to claim the ground isn't theirs after, tell me how that goes.

And even if you want to think "the Horde had a camp there!" makes it fine, that doesn't make the entire zone Horde territory. Which is what I was talking about anyway,

And to this, the point was that you are conflating two different things.

And you're comparing someone who thought it was a good idea to keep a Dreadlord as a commander to Anduin.

They were the enemies of the Horde that captured a Horde city for themselves. The Horde is not responsible for the actions of the people that betray them. Just like the Alliance is not responsible for Benedictus or Fandral attacking Thrall. They would be responsible for Gallywix attacking the Alliance. Just like Alliance is responsible for Genn attacking the Horde.

This is why picking apart things doesn't really help you out, since you try to claim "they're enemies though!" but then follow it up admitted that "Yeah it's not unreasonable to say that she could be told she should have known".

One could demand that, yes. That is still a different topic compared to Genn using the vague orders he got from Anduin, which resulted in nothing from Anduin.

Because in the end, Genn came back saying "Yeah she tried to enslave one of Odyn's commanders and I stopped her".

Varimathras was a coruler of the Forsaken. And king of Gilneas is still subject of the High King. And yes, rebellion is not comparable to an actual Alliance member attacking the Horde. That was the point. As for the Forsaken fighting Genn afterwards, once attacked, they were free to engage in combat against the aggressor.

One was a rebellion yes, but the other ended up being justified in the end. If Genn let Sylvanas do as she wished, she would have been helping the enemy (Helya).

Yes, the guy that is so totally genuine about peace that he does not punish his subjects that act against it and instead rings them to a diplomatic meeting with the Warchief. Which part of that are you denying, exactly? That he did not punish Genn? He only gave him a talk. Or that he did not bring Genn to Arathi? Who is he talking to in the epilogue then?

Because yet again, Genn doesn't require an actual punishment. His gut feeling was right.

If anything, bringing Genn to Arathi would be a punishment to Genn.

And putting aside the fact that Anduin told Sylvanas it is not a peace attempt, Anduin did not single-handedly organize the Gathering. It was him and Sylvanas. Was Sylvanas also genuine about peace there then, despite her actions and inner monologues saying the contrary, just because of her helping organize the Gathering? OK then, good to know. I did not know that about Sylvanas.

I said "helped", not single-handedly, it would be nice to discuss without having words shoved down my throat ya know.

And no, it had nothing to do with Sylvanas, it was Anduin and Faol. The letter even says this, and everything is planned out.

All Sylvanas did was pick who could go. And if you re-read the excerpts, Anduin was quite upset that Sylvanas ruined something that was going well, and even the letter to her said hopefully it could be a start to mending damages.

Good for him. He is still a peace breaker that faced no punishment for it because Anduin is full of shit.

And this is why I said bias, because you're not really accepting anything other than "He should be punished!". You have no intention of discussing it or viewing it from another direction. You are set in your opinion against Genn. Hence, bias.

Free will has jack shit to do with lawlessness and Sylvanas punished defectors since vanilla with Blizzard merrily confirming free will being fine and dandy among the Forsaken.

Its not quite free will if you're not allowed to leave.

Said the person that called me pointing out that Anduin did nothing about Genn acting against peace as twisting things. Want me to link the relevant page? Look at all dat lack of bias on your part

There was no peace at the start of Legion, since the death of Varian.
Did you miss the whole rogue campaign?

[Schattenlied]

The Alliance send trained assassins to murder miners while they do their jobs (Silithus questing)

No, they send spies to check out the mining operation, which the Alliance are completely justified in doing by the way. The Horde don't own Silithus, and the planet just got stabbed by a Titan, why are the goblins mining the stab wound? The Horde questline there seems to take place first, which means those spies get killed by the Horde player character before the Alliance attacks anyone. The Alliance isn't sent in to kill anyone until the spies get attacked.

they summon a molten giant that turns into a fiery tornado to blow them away by the hundreds (First Part of the Alliance War Camapign)

Well, maybe if the Horde didn't want the Alliance to roflstomp them they shouldn't have declared war on the Alliance and torched one of the Alliance capital cities.

Umbric, a man aligned to the cosmic force of corruption and evil

He's not aligned to it, by that logic Sylvanas is still aligned to the Lich King.

lectures Gallywix about environmentalism and wealth inequality and then has you kill waitresses and sunbathers to amend this (Alliance War Campaign, the quest is I Take No Pleasure In This).

No, he has the player kill "opportunistic socialites who revel in the depravity" of the Pleasure Palace, parasites, AKA "the 1%". Not saying it was right to do, but don't fuckin lie about what happened, mk?

I make this thread to bring attention to this and to tell you all that goblins are people too.

No, you make this thread to blatantly misrepresent the situation.

[Jester Joe]

Quote the part of BtS that said anything about forcing anyone to follow her.

Who said anything about BtS?

I'm not being sarcastic about it. Like I said I'm fine with what the Alliance does in game and I mean it. It's a fictional story and conflict makes the story more interesting*. It's the attitude of a lot of people in this Forum is what I find really, like really, funny and the arguments presented to feel good about their faction or the actions of said faction.

*if only there was better writing and more believable and likable (yes, you can also like bad guys) characters and Blizzard sticking to some rules about how the universe works.

Okay, I'm sorry for misreading the tone then.

What is this supposed to be other than a terribly weak attempt at a gotcha? It was destroyed by Deathwing when he lashed out after getting shot at with the Dragon Soul. You know, the dragon that could break the planet. Somehow I kinda doubt the Alliance gunship had defense against that. And this spark of brilliance does not negate Alliance losing more gunships.

Last I checked, a vast majority of the fallen ships in game are Horde.
Deepholm, Jade Forest, Broken Shore.

Skyfire lasted until Legion. And that doesn't take into account the Vindicaar even. It's not even debatable that Alliance has the aerial dominance.
Just like it's not debatable that Horde has the naval dominance, since that's the whole point of why the Alliance reaches out to Kul Tiras.

[Aucald]

This thread seems to be meandering off track - it is about the Alliance's relationship with the Goblins as a race, and not the entire history of the Horde/Alliance conflict throughout the ages. Let's return to the actual topic of the thread.

[Super Dickmann]

No, they send spies to check out the mining operation, which the Alliance are completely justified in doing by the way. The Horde don't own Silithus, and the planet just got stabbed by a Titan, why are the goblins mining the stab wound? he Horde questline there takes place first, which means those spies get killed by the Horde player character before the Alliance attacks anyone. The Alliance isn't sent in to kill anyone until the spies get attacked.


Well, maybe if the Horde didn't want the Alliance to roflstomp them they shouldn't have declared war on the Alliance and torched one of our capital cities.




He's not aligned to it, by that logic Sylvanas is still aligned to the Lich King.

No, he has the player kill "opportunistic socialites who revel in the depravity" of the Pleasure Palace, parasites, AKA "the 1%". Not saying it was right to do, but don't fuckin lie about what happened, mk?



No, you make this thread to blatantly misrepresent the situation.

Those spies shivving the workers are spies of peace. Ignore the fact that they auto-attack you in proximity and that the part about the Alliance not trying diplomacy still holds up. As for the ones in Zuldazar being justified because muh Sylvanas, I remember this forum crying its eyes out about the civvies in Astranaar, yet the workers on that beach had it coming. Finally, for the Pleasure Palace quest, I suggest reading it. Waitresses, sunbathers and golfers give you quest credit. But I guess killing civvies is fine if you do it in the name of tentacle communism.

[Jester Joe]

Summon one of the big demons that took Xenedar in a hit.

Last thing I'll address, Xenedar was not empowered with the Crown of the Triumvirate. Nor could the Horde control or summon a demon like that.

Either way, back to the OP, Alliance doesn't hate Goblins any more than anyone else does.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

The Night Elves had it coming for not doing shit since WC3, the goblins dindu nuffin. As for that being my headcanon, it's in the book, you can even see it from the samples let alone anything else. Anduin attempts diplomacy with everything except the Silithus expedition.

Let's address the bold first, in simple words for you: Anduin can't attempt diplomacy over an issue he is completely unaware of because it's being done in secret by the Horde WHICH is why he sent spies to Silithus, the same spies whom were ATTACKED ON SIGHT by the Horde for snooping around. The samples are very clear, even clearer than the game: Sylvanas has her goblins mining Azerite in secret to use for a weapon to use against the Alliance, the Alliance wants to prevent them from making such weapons. So we have the questlines, which show investigators being attacked and returning blood for blood, and the impetus of the Horde's efforts being to make weapons to use against the Alliance. They are the ones who started this shit.

So much winning. Seriously though it will be MoP all over again. The Horde scoring major victory after victory until the very last patch an then the Alliance somehow turns it all around but in the end goes "well, you did so much wrong and outright evil stuff but since we want peace we are now okay with it. Now leave but don't do it again"

Why will that be the case? Because WoW needs 2 factions.

Don't forget your 'defeat' will result in keeping everything you got, paying nothing for the damages you caused AND making the terms despite supposedly losing. BUt there's no bias in the writing either.

[ombramo]

Seeing how Goblins originally were caricatures of jewish people it doesn't surprise me that they are the ass-end of lots of plot lines

[Super Dickmann]

Let's address the bold first, in simple words for you: Anduin can't attempt diplomacy over an issue he is completely unaware of because it's being done in secret by the Horde WHICH is why he sent spies to Silithus, the same spies whom were ATTACKED ON SIGHT by the Horde for snooping around. The samples are very clear, even clearer than the game: Sylvanas has her goblins mining Azerite in secret to use for a weapon to use against the Alliance, the Alliance wants to prevent them from making such weapons. So we have the questlines, which show investigators being attacked and returning blood for blood, and the impetus of the Horde's efforts being to make weapons to use against the Alliance. They are the ones who started this shit.

Horde kills hostile spies that attack on proximity. More news at 11. And you've still yet to demonstrate your timeline is anything more than fanfiction. If only you had more human potential you might be able to produce a more consistent argument.

I don't care about casus belli or whatever. When you live in a world with an undead bitch and you have reason to believe she's going after a power that can potentially be a huge threat to you and your people, you have the duty to stop her. This is not the real world. This is a fantasy world with magic and stuff. Wars in the real world are usually fought over resources, not over control of creatures who have the power to raise the dead and make life very uncomfortable for the living.

Whether true or not, that's not the point I was arguing, my only point was that Genn was the unprompted aggressor and you seem to agree. Thanks for playing.

[Pickynerd]

I actually like Gobs, its that fucking Jersey accent that I can't stand.

[Mehrunes]

No, they send spies to check out the mining operation, which the Alliance are completely justified in doing by the way. The Horde don't own Silithus, and the planet just got stabbed by a Titan, why are the goblins mining the stab wound? The Horde questline there seems to take place first, which means those spies get killed by the Horde player character before the Alliance attacks anyone. The Alliance isn't sent in to kill anyone until the spies get attacked.

The factions are free to set camps in contested zones. Alliance had a camp in Silithus back in Vanilla too. Meanwhile the Alliance has zero rights whatsoever to encroach on said camps of the Horde. Let alone kill Goblins to get samples.

Also, please, do elaborate on how the Horde quests happen first. Especially the part where Alliance spies are yet to get discovered by the Horde at the start of the Alliance questline and at the start of the Horde one they have been discovered.

Well, maybe if the Horde didn't want the Alliance to roflstomp them they shouldn't have declared war on the Alliance and torched one of the Alliance capital cities.

Alliance does not roflstomp the Horde lol. Goblin miners, sure. When it comes to actual military, they lose half they ground forces at Lordaeron with jack shit to show for it and most of their navy throughout Lordaeron, Zul and Zandalari armada.

[Amaterasu65]

Even the Tauren and Orc leaders showed their dislike for Gallywix and his schemes. They even called him a rat.

Who likes ugly dirty rats?

[Mehrunes]

Let's address the bold first, in simple words for you: Anduin can't attempt diplomacy over an issue he is completely unaware of because it's being done in secret by the Horde WHICH is why he sent spies to Silithus, the same spies whom were ATTACKED ON SIGHT by the Horde for snooping around. The samples are very clear, even clearer than the game: Sylvanas has her goblins mining Azerite in secret to use for a weapon to use against the Alliance, the Alliance wants to prevent them from making such weapons. So we have the questlines, which show investigators being attacked and returning blood for blood, and the impetus of the Horde's efforts being to make weapons to use against the Alliance. They are the ones who started this shit.

Except the Alliance does not know what the Horde wants to do with Azerite. Because the do not even know much about Azerite itself. Which is the point of them spying. And the Horde can defend their camp from Alliance snooping. The Alliance has no snoop around in Horde camp. And, once again, Alliance spies are not discovered at the start of the Alliance questline. They are at the start of the Horde. Try to figure out which one this implies to happen first.

[Lochton]

Honestly, I don't think they hate Goblins, it is more depending on who they stand with.

[Super Dickmann]

Honestly, I don't think they hate Goblins, it is more depending on who they stand with.

The title of this topic is honestly facetious. My main point is that the writing is inconsistent and frames goblin deaths differently than it does say, night elf civvies, even in similar circumstances and because of that the Alliance's actions against the Bilgewater Goblins are glossed over rather than used in the same way that similar actions by the Horde are focused on.

[Jester Joe]

The title of this topic is honestly facetious. My main point is that the writing is inconsistent and frames goblin deaths differently than it does say, night elf civvies, even in similar circumstances and because of that the Alliance's actions against the Bilgewater Goblins are glossed over rather than used in the same way that similar actions by the Horde are focused on.

The issue you're looking for then is that Blizzard hates goblins.

[Super Dickmann]

The issue you're looking for then is that Blizzard hates goblins.

That's part of it, but the result of it is that you get into comical situations, like the aforementioned bit where Umbric kills people lounging at the Pleasure Palace and a questline later Wyrmbane laments that he has to kill actual enemy combatants on a Zandalari ship.

[Jester Joe]

That's part of it, but the result of it is that you get into comical situations, like the aforementioned bit where Umbric kills people lounging at the Pleasure Palace and a questline later Wyrmbane laments that he has to kill actual enemy combatants on a Zandalari ship.

Like going from slaying undead to having to poop out berries?

Blizzard seems inconsistent when it comes "serious time". And the short races get the short end of the stick for some reason.

[Aucald]

I don't think the Alliances hates Goblins, but it probably doesn't care much for them either (either the Horde-affiliated ones or the neutral cartels). The general ethos of the Goblins doesn't match well with that of the Alliance - and since the Alliance has Dwarves and Gnomes to serve as draftspeople, engineers, and technicians they don't have a lot of need for Goblins in any real capacity to fill those roles (which is what the Goblins' general niche is). The Alliance mostly works around Goblins, and likely bears them a good deal of enmity for their role in the Second War where they were loosely allied with the Old Horde.

[Leodric]

Which race doesn't dislike Goblins? It's always a relationship based on mutual benefits. That's how the Goblins work. I can imagine Gallywix pulling his cartell right out of the whole Horde agreement as soon he figures out something else benefting him more.