Sylvanas considers Tauren to be tools?

[Combatbutler]

You mean where she forced the blood elves to obey their oath to the Horde.

After most of the army was still in infirmaries, yeah. It did work out in the end, but she didn't care all she wanted was troops. So she ultimately sees them as tools much like all the others, maybe a slightly more favorite tool, but a tool nonetheless.

You mean when she blackmailed Lor'Thremar to pull her forces from Ghostlands?

Pretty much, she didn't care hat it took so long as she got the troops for her agenda.

[Noomz]

New novel excerpt:

Baine was watching her closely. Some days she wished he would just follow his big, bleeding heart and turn the tauren to the Alliance. But her disdain for the tauren’s gentleness did not eclipse her need of them. As long as Baine remained loyal—and thus far he was, where it counted—she would use him and his people to the Horde’s advantage."

http://www.wowhead.com/news=284863/n...nduin-sylvanas

She’s not wrong. Blaine is a crying hamburger thats done fucking nothing. All he does is talk big.

[Friendlyimmolation]

After most of the army was still in infirmaries, yeah. It did work out in the end, but she didn't care all she wanted was troops. So she ultimately sees them as tools much like all the others, maybe a slightly more favorite tool, but a tool nonetheless.



Pretty much, she didn't care hat it took so long as she got the troops for her agenda.

Lorthemar was foolish to think that he could keep everyone in Quel’thalas whole the rest of the Horde fielded to Northrend, all Sylvanas did was point out that if he wouldn’t contribute to the war, then she wouldn’t help him in the Ghostlands.

[StaeleAilar]

Including Houjin Pandaren and one tribe of trolls (The smallest, even) in your idea of a ‘majority’. Lul.

Even the Orcs are split on ‘honor’. As WoD and Garry have shown.

The only thing holding the Horde back are the Tauren and a few holdouts who don’t understand what it takes to win a war. Baine and Saurfang being prime examples.

The Forsaken aren’t the embodiment of the Horde true. But you don’t need to be Forsaken to know that Baine and his ilk are morons who would doom the Horde.

"morons who would doom the horde"...

So.. have you or have you not seen Sylvanas during the seige of Lordaeron? I mean admittedly it's hard to doom the horde when, as it's leader, you kill them all and make them cheap versions of forsaken (not even like.. sentient ones.. literally just raises them into undeath) i suppose.

Sylvanas' actions throughout legion AND what looks to be BFA as well (still waiting for the curveball/twist to be thrown in to make me think something different of course) is all about Sylvanas. And she uses the horde as a tool to keep herself alive.. She doesn't care about the survival of the horde to make the horde better or to give it's people better lives. She wants them as shields... and arrows in her quiver against anyone she doesn't like... and if you read the windrunner sisters comic... she was even potentially prepared to MURDER HER OWN SISTERS and raise *them* into undeath to serve her...

Now i may be wrong, perhaps being a slave is some people's idea of a true and strong horde.. but i don't seem to recall it going so well for the orcs last time they were slaves to someone who sought power and conquest at any expense...

[Combatbutler]

Lorthemar was foolish to think that he could keep everyone in Quel’thalas whole the rest of the Horde fielded to Northrend, all Sylvanas did was point out that if he wouldn’t contribute to the war, then she wouldn’t help him in the Ghostlands.

Most of the army was still in infirmaries, was it foolish to think his people might be able to get a breather after they literally just came out of an civil war, yes it was but Sylvanas also didn't care, she tells him he will lose support and many of his people will die, so they either serve now or go down. It is that moment that Lor'themar realizes the blood elves are no longer her people.

This here is very clear

I would warn you: those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long

[StaeleAilar]

Wow what a shock. More and more stuff like this comes to light. I think one day we might have to face the fact that Sylvanas is not a good person.

I believe the PC term is "morally grey" and i think that's what Blizz would prefer we refer to her as.

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Most of the army was still in infirmaries, was it foolish to think his people might be able to get a breather after they literally just came out of an civil war, yes it was but Sylvanas also didn't care, she tells him he will lose support and many of his people will die, so they either serve now or go down. It is that moment that Lor'themar realizes the blood elves are no longer her people.

This here is very clear

I would warn you: those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long

I kind of hope she sticks to that quote she always says re: wont stand long..

Because i kind of want her to push the alliance so far in this upcoming expansion that the inner warmonger of Tyrande and Genn come out and she answers for her actions because of it at the hands of the alliance. It would be far more interesting then some lame ass redemption arc that im sure they'll go for with their "morally grey" crap. A guy can dream that the Night elves will stop being passive ever since WoW started i suppose..

[Aeula]

"morons who would doom the horde"...

So.. have you or have you not seen Sylvanas during the seige of Lordaeron? I mean admittedly it's hard to doom the horde when, as it's leader, you kill them all and make them cheap versions of forsaken (not even like.. sentient ones.. literally just raises them into undeath) i suppose.

Sylvanas' actions throughout legion AND what looks to be BFA as well (still waiting for the curveball/twist to be thrown in to make me think something different of course) is all about Sylvanas. And she uses the horde as a tool to keep herself alive.. She doesn't care about the survival of the horde to make the horde better or to give it's people better lives. She wants them as shields... and arrows in her quiver against anyone she doesn't like... and if you read the windrunner sisters comic... she was even potentially prepared to MURDER HER OWN SISTERS and raise *them* into undeath to serve her...

Now i may be wrong, perhaps being a slave is some people's idea of a true and strong horde.. but i don't seem to recall it going so well for the orcs last time they were slaves to someone who sought power and conquest at any expense...

The only Horde members who died were those too wounded to retreat. They'd have been trampled to death by the advancing Alliance anyway, might as well reanimate them and use them to buy the rest of the Horde more time.

Everything she's done so far has been to the Horde's benefit. Because she needs the Horde in order to achieve her goals.

Sylvanas might be a selfish bitch and her reasons for doing what she does are anything but altruistic, but in order to get what she wants, she needs the Horde to remain strong and in power. Baine would simply surrender to the Alliance outright and exile anyone who disagreed with him.

[Qualia]

Baine would simply surrender to the Alliance outright and exile anyone who disagreed with him.

If Baine was in charge, there wouldn't be a war to begin with and thus, wouldn't be any need to surrender.

At least, from the perspective of a modern and civil man, I just don't see how it's more beneficial for the Horde's people to wage war against a force that was as powerful as them, right after a massive war that both sides were recovering from, and when the other side's leader has shown genuine interest in peace. The two factions might not need to be all friendly, there might be a skirmish here and then, but the relationship between them during Thrall's Horde (i.e: Vanilla / TBC / early WoTLK) was the most ideal, in my opinion. Maintain peace, but be vigilant and prepared if the other side make a move.

Our real world's major powers, which had experienced many more wars than WoW-verse, learned the lesson and keep themselves at bay (even though it's not like those countries particularly like each other) - I wonder how long would it take for the hawks of Alliance / Horde to do the same. If Baine is going to take a step back for peace / the greater good of both side, I don't see that as something worthy of disrespects.

[StaeleAilar]

It remains to be seen what's going to happen though. Maybe he does something in a future patch that gives him some backbone, who knows. One can hope he stands up to her, I hope he does start calling her out on her shit leadership.

He had dialogue at some point on the beta that they have since changed, that basically said he was there to keep an eye on nathanos and the forsaken to make sure they uphold the morals and values of the horde. But they changed it to some lame crap, like they did with Vol'jin and the dialogue alliance players had with him when he spoke down to the people he needed help from to seige orgrimmar.

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The only Horde members who died were those too wounded to retreat. They'd have been trampled to death by the advancing Alliance anyway, might as well reanimate them and use them to buy the rest of the Horde more time.

Everything she's done so far has been to the Horde's benefit. Because she needs the Horde in order to achieve her goals.

Sylvanas might be a selfish bitch and her reasons for doing what she does are anything but altruistic, but in order to get what she wants, she needs the Horde to remain strong and in power. Baine would simply surrender to the Alliance outright and exile anyone who disagreed with him.

umm i mean.. they looked nice and alive and mobile to me in the cinematic before she killed them all. But hey i may be wrong.

Baine would never surrender to the alliance unless he was forced out of the horde for upholding his and his peoples values. And even then it wouldn't be surrender, he would likely seek to join so that he had some protection against the horde under sylvanas that would likely seek to eliminate him and all of the tauren unless one of them kissed the feet of the banshee queen, at which point they would be placed in the leadership position.

Nothing she has done thus far has been for the horde's benefit *other* than signalling for the retreat at the initial broken shore situation. That benefitted the horde because it wasn't left completely leaderless as a result of her actions. After that it's been under the guise of helping the horde, but it's been all about her and nathanos... and given even HIS reactions to her actions in the upcoming novel, and i assume in game aswell at some point, even he is questioning her sanity and her ability to lead.

[Deleted]

It’s almost like there is more than one race represented in the Horde, compared to humans in the Alliance. Makes you think.

Meanwhile, horde campaign in BfA is 80% forsaken, with two main characters being Nathanos (who doesn't even look like a forsaken) and Lilian Voss. There's not a single blood elf or tauren there and in every quest you work with Nathanos directly. And on the Alliance side, you work with a different race in every quest, from gnomes to night elves to dwarves. Ironically, there's more humans (albeit undead ones) in the Horde campaign than in the Alliance one. Now, this is something that forces you to ponder.

[Aeula]

If Baine was in charge, there wouldn't be a war to begin with and thus, wouldn't be any need to surrender.

At least, from the perspective of a modern and civil man, I just don't see how it's more beneficial for the Horde's people to wage war against a force that was as powerful as them, right after a massive war that both sides were recovering from, and when the other side's leader has shown genuine interest in peace. The two factions might not need to be all friendly, there might be a skirmish here and then, but the relationship between them during Thrall's Horde (i.e: Vanilla / TBC / early WoTLK) was the most ideal, in my opinion. Maintain peace, but be vigilant and prepared if the other side make a move.

Our real world's major powers, which had experienced many more wars than WoW-verse, learned the lesson and keep themselves at bay (even though it's not like those countries particularly like each other) - I wonder how long would it take for the hawks of Alliance / Horde to do the same. If Baine is going to take a step back for peace / the greater good of both side, I don't see that as something worthy of disrespects.

War between the Alliance and Horde was inevitable. Tensions are always a spark away from igniting into an all-out war. The Alliance has been the super power on Azeroth since the end of MoP, Legion helped shift the balance a little and Sylvanas was able to tip it and equalize them again. If Baine capitulates (Which he would, because he'd immediately vie for peace rather than keep an uneasy truce) to the Alliance then it'd be the Alliance who got to have all the Azerite, the Alliance who dictates who gets what resources in general. The Horde would waste away, permitted to exist only by the Alliance's 'mercy'.

[wonderlust]

Can Sylvanas do wrong, ever?

From reading topics like this one, I see that the the usual Sylvanas fans firmly believe that she can do no wrong, and will justify every single one of her actions.

[Dagoth Ur]

If Baine was in charge, there wouldn't be a war to begin with and thus, wouldn't be any need to surrender.

At least, from the perspective of a modern and civil man, I just don't see how it's more beneficial for the Horde's people to wage war against a force that was as powerful as them, right after a massive war that both sides were recovering from, and when the other side's leader has shown genuine interest in peace. The two factions might not need to be all friendly, there might be a skirmish here and then, but the relationship between them during Thrall's Horde (i.e: Vanilla / TBC / early WoTLK) was the most ideal, in my opinion. Maintain peace, but be vigilant and prepared if the other side make a move.

Our real world's major powers, which had experienced many more wars than WoW-verse, learned the lesson and keep themselves at bay (even though it's not like those countries particularly like each other) - I wonder how long would it take for the hawks of Alliance / Horde to do the same. If Baine is going to take a step back for peace / the greater good of both side, I don't see that as something worthy of disrespects.

This is why it kinda worked better when Sylvanas' main motivation behind attacking Teldrassil was securing Kalimdor for Horde. Not sure why they changed that and are now pushing this "all shall serve me" crap. I mean even though it's ruthless and would probably be proven wrong, for in-universe character to think that maybe if Horde and Alliance are separated each on their own continent it would lead to some kind of distant in the future peace doesn't sound that crazy I guess.

[Arrashi]

This is why it kinda worked better when Sylvanas' main motivation behind attacking Teldrassil was securing Kalimdor for Horde. Not sure why they changed that and are now pushing this "all shall serve me" crap. I mean even though it's ruthless and would probably be proven wrong, for in-universe character to think that maybe if Horde and Alliance are separated each on their own continent it would lead to some kind of distant in the future peace doesn't sound that crazy I guess.

Oh and i think i know why are they pushing this crap. To make anduin even more "symphathetic" even for horde players.

[OverFanNisseFrasse]

True. The worst thing is, she will probably get away with it. I'm expecting a full fledged redemption for Sylvanas. We're definitely not getting a Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 so the other option is a redemption story.

This is another low blow to Garrosh' legacy. Someone way more evil gets away with far more warcrimes and on top of it likely gets a redemption

Why couldn't it have been reversed? Sylvanas should have been killed and Garrosh made Warchief and gotten a redemption.

We're going the wrong way.... another piss on the Horde grave.

I agree with you. I do hope at least that Sylvanas is geting some sort of a punishment and not a redemption story : /

[Deleted]

I believe the PC term is "morally grey" and i think that's what Blizz would prefer we refer to her as.

I liked it when Garrosh called her a bitch.

[Grythletubs]

Yeah, you have orcs AND undead!!!

It's funny how literally the only two races represented in the Horde are the ones with the largest potential to be bad, yet the rest who are neutral/good are pretty much ignored by Blizzard.

[Aucald]

Baine is subordinate to Garrosh and per the end of Tides of War, every able bodied man and woman is enrolled into the Horde army be it in a supply or field capacity. I'm pretty sure giving up the son of the enemy leader because it makes you feel bad is grounds for being court-martialed.

Except Dezco and his Sunwatchers were tasked directly by Baine - so unless Garrosh sought to countermand Baine's command of his own people (which never occurred) I doubt his proclamation at the end of "Tides of War" is applicable and it could be argued Dezco's mission was one of field capacity in any case. As for giving up Anduin - he's not really a "leader" in any real capacity as he was only present on Pandaria as a forward-scout at the time, and since Garrosh never became privy to the fact that he had been released for services rendered to the Sunwalker expedition it wasn't really a matter of being traitorous. You can't really lose what you never had, after all.

[Deleted]

Oh and i think i know why are they pushing this crap. To make anduin even more "symphathetic" even for horde players.

Anduin is an ok dude, but to really make him likeable they'd have to make him more badass. He's just still a little bit too soft. He needs to grow a beard and become a Retribution Paladin, not some crying Holy Priest pussy. He's too feminine.

[Deleted]

Funny, I thought she would do like the rest of us do, and consider them... Food.

You didn't consider that some of the horde race considers whole alliance as food?