What is going on with our beloved characters!? (Warning: BFA Spoilers)

[Super Dickmann]

Well, I agree somewhat. But the plague at the gates was at least a little worrying for him and he vanishes, not to interfere, but to watch. Then she uses more plague and at the end blows it all up with plague. And Saurfang's interference in the end changes nothing, he only tries to kill everyone, but can't (of course) and then they walk into the trap like planned, which he doesn't prevent, although he could have, then and there. (We don't know how they get out, because that cinematic isn't implemented yet)
So what he doesn't like is the usage of plague (and necromancy, presumably) and the fact that the fight wasn't supposed to be won, but only one big trap. He calls her out on both things, but the second time much more furious, which is the point where she gets rid of him.

And I don't think he's completely wrong, because all of her Azerite warmachine and plague usage at the different stages of the fight would not have killed Anduin and Genn.
Although I agree that if she had succeeded with that before being pushed back all the way to the throne room, she would not have blown up the city and she did try. So while I think Saurfang was right in that she probably thought blowing it all up would be her best chance to kill them all, I agree that he was wrong in so far that this wasn't her only plan.

The azerite war machine failed, but the plague didn't until Jaina's appearance, whereas even Anduin starts asking his dad for help once Nathanos corners him until Gelbin and Alleria show up to save him. Sylvanas did intend to win the battle, but in the event she failed, she would ensure the Alliance get no more than a pyrrhic victory. I would have more understanding of Saurfang's character if his issue was a principled one about the plague used on their own troops and necromancy, less so if the plague is used only against the enemy in the case of a trap.

[Jastall]

What mostly grinds my gears is how Sylvanas still enjoys Horde support despite her amoral actions combined with all her failures.

In Wrath she gets betrayed by Varimathras and Putress and this incompetence from her, combined with human experimentation for the sheer lulz of it, causes the worst inter-faction crisis since the Second War, eventually culminating in open conflict.

In Cata she completely fails at taking Gilneas despite Horde backing, being only able to hold back the tide of Worgen even with the blight being used and only survives the ordeal because of free brezzes.

In Stromheim she gets attacked (fair) but then completely jettisons the mission to save the world in favor of her own personal immortality errand, up to and including leaving the Horde PC (you know, the only part of the Horde forces actually seeking the Aegis) stranded in Helheim with nothing but a ''later loser!''. If our characters hadn't been superheroes our campaign might have ended then and there.

And of course in BfA she gears up and encourages a war that she's not able to win, refusing to aid Magni and co., then invades NE lands without being able to hold them or inflict a killing blow, and then loses the Undercity despite employing literally every dirty tactic in the book and crossing into Arthas territory.

She's been a load for the Horde more than anything else. Despite this, nobody has a problem with her apart from Saurfang who was hit with the idiot ball so she appears justified. Even guys like Lor'themar, for whom raising Horde soldiers was previously a red line, just goes ''yer sir Blightcaller sir'' when ordered around by her boytoy.

I'd be sorta OK if she was utterly ruthless but also got shit done. This combination of being an asshole yet also not getting results makes it completely impossible for me to respect her, and the lack of reactions to her antics make it very hard for me to respect this garbage faction war's writing.

And of course all this on top of Horde characters becoming cheerleaders for stupid reasons, such as Rexxar joining the war in earnest because he hates Jaina now (like, what?) or Voss happily participating in necromancy in defiance of what little there was of her character. Fuck I hate this dumb faction war.

[Traveler Voltin]

oh we are back to the failures game.

[Alex86el]

I agree with OP.
Especially for Varok and Eitrigg.

I hope Sylvanas leaves, or gets pushed out of the Horde, and the Horde becomes more like the old Horde, barbaric, yet honorable.
Though i have a feeling we'll get to see Sylvanas become a hero of some sort, because of her fanbase.

I like the whole Yrel and Light-Nazis thing.
I know it is edgier even that "potential-hero-missunderstood-sylvanas".
But its about time we saw an alliance race be the bad guys. (i know they arent alliance, but its the closest thing we'd get)
Maybe Turalyon joins them. It would fit him.

I just hope we get rid of all the gimmicky pokemon-themed protagonists.
We got: Light-man, Void-lady, Diamond-guy, Light-undead.. come on.

[Caligs]

Doubting this will happen due to Blizz generally having become such a giant failure at even competent story telling (let alone good story telling), but Sylvanas is being portrayed as such an evil villain and Garrosh 2.0 to the extreme, that I really can't see that actually happening and fully expect some sort of twist where she becomes the actual hero. Basically she switches from being Garrosh 2.0 to being Illidan 2.0 (still not good story telling due it all of it being done before, but at least it's a little better due to the twists).

But this is Blizzard, so probably going to be extremely disappointed with the ending of this particular story...


Hopefully Before the Storm sheds some light on the various "wtf" decisions that characters are making.

[Hubbl3]

I agree with OP.
Especially for Varok and Eitrigg.

I hope Sylvanas leaves, or gets pushed out of the Horde, and the Horde becomes more like the old Horde, barbaric, yet honorable.

What does this mean? The old Horde was never honorable. That was the Horde who built streets from the corpses of Draenei and invaded a different world just because they need targets to still their Bloodlust. The Horde that drank the Demon Blood willingly.

Even Thralls Horde is splintered, both in WC3 and in WoW, with subfactions being aggressive and not that honorable at all.

[Deleted]

The azerite war machine failed, but the plague didn't until Jaina's appearance, whereas even Anduin starts asking his dad for help once Nathanos corners him until Gelbin and Alleria show up to save him. Sylvanas did intend to win the battle, but in the event she failed, she would ensure the Alliance get no more than a pyrrhic victory. I would have more understanding of Saurfang's character if his issue was a principled one about the plague used on their own troops and necromancy, less so if the plague is used only against the enemy in the case of a trap.

Well, even the usage against an enemy, at least of this version of the Blight, has to be somewhat of an abomination for a person whose race has a promise to keep towards the underlying forces of the world, aka the elements. Saurfang is the orc leader, so he has to make sure that the orcs stick to their promise. And while some minor usage of some minor form of Blight may not be the biggest problem, a general usage of this version may well become one. Plus the whole mass-necromancy thing. The deal with the elements is the biggest strength of the orcs and if they lose it again, they are f***ed. That is his responsibility.

Anduin wanted to keep pushing, which is why he was so close to getting overwhelmed. Had he pulled back, none of Sylvanas's plans would have worked, but she played him (and Genn, probably) like a fiddle. And part of that was making sure that they kept pushing by putting up a real fight. She wouldn't have had to. The citizens of Undercity were already evacuated, she could have just left with them and nothing would actually have changed, apart from the Alliance beginning to rebuild it sooner than they can now (which would end as soon as the counter-attacks happen anyway). The only reason it makes sense to keep fighting is to kill Anduin and Genn and the rest of the Alliance command that is there with them. Which makes perfect sense if she still wants to attack Stormwind, which is, after all, the actual goal behind the rest of her plans.

I don't know if at any point in the book she actually informs Saurfang of this, but if she does, if he knows, he must realize that this was the plan the moment he sees what exactly she is doing. And his thoughts must be that she is willing to sacrifice even Undercity, just to further her own personal plans, if she needs to. And he's not ok with that, I'd wager. That is why I think the point at which he's really angry makes sense. But he and the Horde are already far to deep in the shitters at that point and if he challenges her at the gates of Lordaeron throne room and ruins her plan, his people are going to go down. Then she throws him out anyway and he tries one last time to win the battle by killing the Alliance command all by himself, so Sylvanas doesn't have to blow it all up with Blight.

[Super Dickmann]

snip.

She does intend to kill the high command and she does play them like a fiddle. Which only makes sense, considering she's a much more seasoned leader than a kid who's not even in his twenties and has never fought a battle in his life and the guy who's reduced to a squatter in the tree she later burns. As for Saurfang, while the book isn't out yet, there's nothing in his internal narration in the Teldrassil novella to suggest he has objections to the war in principle, so much as the use of the Blight and undeath in the Undercity itself, thoguh that's subject to change. His breaking point is the idea that she means to destroy the city, but the city isn't of any value on its own, its people have been evacuated and so has the army. There's no humanitarian element and the way the dialogue is written it suggests he's opposing the concept of the trap itself instead of the means used to achieve it. Plaguing the city and indeed the area means that it's uninhabitable and the Alliance can't base itself out of there, denying them a chance to spread out. The Alliance do not gain territory as a result of the attack and the Horde only loses infrastructure.

snip

Sylvanas is fairly successful, at least compared to most leaders who are failures. When it comes to Gilneas, while she didn't hold it, she ultimately left it fairly plagued and sent the leaders packing to live on Teldrassil while holding onto Silverpine. In the very same expansion she secured her hold over most of Lordaeron including winning the battle in Andorhal despite Koltira's actions.

As for Stormheim, she doesn't support the hunt for the Aegis because she's separated from the fleet once Genn blows it up, and the end result of that fight is pretty much a total loss for both parties. However skilled a commander you are, fighting an airship with ships that lack anti-air is a bit of a hard sell. She flat out says in the quest text that while the bulk of the Forsaken are there for the Aegis, she has another errand to take care of and mostly pursues this herself up until Dreadwake, where she has to use her troops because Genn continues to attack her.

In terms of invading lands, she essentially wins and drives them out of most of their ancestral territory, which even Garrosh fails to do, torches their capital and forces the proud nelves to sleep on the streets of Stormwind and grow pumpkins for their human overlords. She succeeds in the resource war Garrosh was pushing by taking northern Kalimdor.

[Deleted]

Don't forget, Sylvanas has the power of propaganda on her side. She can tell all of the Horde that the Alliance lured her into a trap in Arathi, because she was willing to give her people a chance at peace and the council traitors conspired with the king of Stormwind to get rid of her and get the Forsaken and Lordaeron under Alliance control. Think of this, when you think of her allies' actions later in the war and it makes perfect sense.

oh i know, and that is PROBALY what she did. But, even without that, How can Baine and Nameless troll, and nameless leader of orcs be okay with the way Sylvanas Is controlling the horde, ALL the living Trolls,tauren and orcs where the resistance to Garrosh. Her style is pretty much as bad. There is no reason why Any leaders beside theGoblins would be okay with it.

[Dartz1979]

Yrel Sylvanas and Garona are the sexiest lore characters they should never EVER be considered EVIL or even thought of even considered a raid boss or killed off #Nokillingmywaifus

[Deleted]

oh i know, and that is PROBALY what she did. But, even without that, How can Baine and Nameless troll, and nameless leader of orcs be okay with the way Sylvanas Is controlling the horde, ALL the living Trolls,tauren and orcs where the resistance to Garrosh. Her style is pretty much as bad. There is no reason why Any leaders beside theGoblins would be okay with it.

I'm really curious to read what she told Baine, so he goes against the direct wishes of Hamuul even. I hope my book arrives on time this time, not a week later like chronicle did <.<

[Dellis0991]

Your concerns are warranted.

However, let's have faith in Blizzard to clarify the rest of the Horde following Sylvanas despite her actions thing. Hopefully, Blizzard has some intriguing twists and turns to reveal soon which will make the overall story seem more believable.

I hope so, it really strange seeing Garona and Voss characters doing a order 66. I just don't see Garona and Voss being involved in this war and they shouldn't.

[Alex86el]

What does this mean? The old Horde was never honorable. That was the Horde who built streets from the corpses of Draenei and invaded a different world just because they need targets to still their Bloodlust. The Horde that drank the Demon Blood willingly.

Even Thralls Horde is splintered, both in WC3 and in WoW, with subfactions being aggressive and not that honorable at all.

you're right.
i might have phrased it incorrectly.

yes, your average orc is by nature a testosterone-bomb with the iq of a tomato.
also he does not understand honor or respect in the same way humans/dwarves/draenei/etc do.
orc wants your stuff, orc takes it if you're weaker. to his eyes, that's normal and expected. its just a different culture.

what i meant was an honorable leadership.
so if the Horde would just change their "warchief" political system, and instead of one leader having complete control over all races
they changed to a council, with members such as Varok, Eitrigg, Thrall, Baine, even Liadrin, Lor'themar, Garona
the horde would hopefully stop their disrespectful and aggressive expansive plans, and the world would be a better place.

but then again, WoW would be boring.

[Hubbl3]

but then again, WoW would be boring.

That is why I say: Bring out the Dark Horde again. No more stupid needs for justification of Faction warfare and stuff. And that is possible without getting rid of either faction or cripple them beyond the point of playability.

[Jastall]

Sylvanas is fairly successful, at least compared to most leaders who are failures. When it comes to Gilneas, while she didn't hold it, she ultimately left it fairly plagued and sent the leaders packing to live on Teldrassil while holding onto Silverpine. In the very same expansion she secured her hold over most of Lordaeron including winning the battle in Andorhal despite Koltira's actions.

As for Stormheim, she doesn't support the hunt for the Aegis because she's separated from the fleet once Genn blows it up, and the end result of that fight is pretty much a total loss for both parties. However skilled a commander you are, fighting an airship with ships that lack anti-air is a bit of a hard sell. She flat out says in the quest text that while the bulk of the Forsaken are there for the Aegis, she has another errand to take care of and mostly pursues this herself up until Dreadwake, where she has to use her troops because Genn continues to attack her.

In terms of invading lands, she essentially wins and drives them out of most of their ancestral territory, which even Garrosh fails to do, torches their capital and forces the proud nelves to sleep on the streets of Stormwind and grow pumpkins for their human overlords. She succeeds in the resource war Garrosh was pushing by taking northern Kalimdor.

The entire point of the Gilneas adventure is to secure it as a port for the Horde, not drive away its people that weren't even attacking the Horde before the war. Considering the resources poured into the campaign, it's hard to sell ''well we didn't fail at all our objectives'' as a victory.

What says that the Forsaken are pursuing the Aegis? The only one that actually helps you is the batrider lady. Everyone else is randomly up and about, and the bulk of them are seen fighting Worgen. She does nothing for the actually important objective, and even makes a deal with an entity allied with the Legion that would become a raid boss. Why it's impossible to call her out on that bullshit is unknown.

The point is that her success rate isn't very high, especially considering she is magnitudes more ruthless than any other faction leader. And that's OK, not everyone should succeed at everything, but this should make people question her, and it doesn't apart from Saurfang levying suspiciously stupid objections. My beef is that Garrosh got called out for his mistakes. Through the book we know that Genn got called out for Stromheim. But nobody in-story is allowed to say anything to Sylvanas unless they're a dick/idiot themselves.

[Syegfryed]

the horde lore is in the dumpster, everything is being sacrificed for the forsaken overlords, and sylvanus, cause its 'their time to shine"

they even take off the blood elf spotlight, something i considered impossible some time ago, someone in the dev team rly have a big boner for sylvanas

Its pretty pathetic and nonsense, i see Nathanos bossing around every racial leader as a prick, like he was some hot-shit or the warchief himself, Baine Eitrigg you name it, and everyone - besides saurfang and baine a bit - is all ok with everything , not even in Garrosh cataclysm-era people acted like that.

Then it come to zandalar, and oh boy what race would be better to make some ties with those ancient trolls?? darkspear trolls? orcs? nah, put a lot of undead humans there, im sure they will love it, they love necromancy amright.

i don't know, maybe the heart of the dev team is in the right place but their head is too much deep in their asses, cause from the freaking start they should knew that put a former alliance character, a high elf undead, as warchief of the horde would be the worst lore decision in this whole franchise

[Super Dickmann]

The entire point of the Gilneas adventure is to secure it as a port for the Horde, not drive away its people that weren't even attacking the Horde before the war. Considering the resources poured into the campaign, it's hard to sell ''well we didn't fail at all our objectives'' as a victory.

What says that the Forsaken are pursuing the Aegis? The only one that actually helps you is the batrider lady. Everyone else is randomly up and about, and the bulk of them are seen fighting Worgen. She does nothing for the actually important objective, and even makes a deal with an entity allied with the Legion that would become a raid boss. Why it's impossible to call her out on that bullshit is unknown.

The point is that her success rate isn't very high, especially considering she is magnitudes more ruthless than any other faction leader. And that's OK, not everyone should succeed at everything, but this should make people question her, and it doesn't apart from Saurfang levying suspiciously stupid objections. My beef is that Garrosh got called out for his mistakes. Through the book we know that Genn got called out for Stromheim. But nobody in-story is allowed to say anything to Sylvanas unless they're a dick/idiot themselves.

Genn getting called out for Stormheim is within a line and never focused on because it would disrupt the narrative that the Alliance dindu nuffin and the war is caused by Sylvanas being categorically evil. The book makes no attempt to even have her spin this and soft-retcons Silithus by having Magni tell Anduin about what azerite is when in-game he has no idea before he sends SI:7 there and the whole shivving goblin miners bits happens. Much like Vereesa is never called out over the Purge by the Horde. In this case it's irrelevant whether they had a point, since they both have very valid in-character motivation to do what they did, but it's that their opposition doesn't use this as fodder to attack them.

The Forsaken pursuing the Aegis is from the opening quest and the follow-up. Once Sylvanas is attacked, she essentially goes in alone, even telling Nathanos to go:

Nathanos Blightcaller says: My Queen, your safety must be our first concern. Surely we can leave a few ships behind to-
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Do not question me, Nathanos. Now go - make for the Eternity, and bring this hero with you.

And the opening quest has her reference that she will pursue the Aegis by her own means. She goes to Helheim alone. She doesn't help you there because she literally can't, only Helya can send people out from there. Helya's questionable allegiance to the Legion isn't even brought up until much later. (And doesn't make much sense in the first place, how the fuck did Illidan's soul end up with her, but beside the point.) The other Forsaken NPCs assist you with your task, those that don't are engaged in a situation where the Alliance is actually the aggressor for a change and so can't bail to help you out. Hell, the reason you can even go after the Aegis as Horde is because the apothecaries 'resurrect' you in the first quest.

When it comes to Gilneas, it's true that the objective to secure it as a port failed, but it did disable it as an area. Given that the end result is the worgen becoming refugees in other lands and the remaining opposition being forced into somewhat effective guerilla warfare that's not all that bad an outcome. Especially as the Stormpike and Bloodfang later lose in Hillsbrad.

Sylvanas does get called out and while the people opposing her make stupid points like Saurfang or are pansies like Baine, that was no less the case with Garrosh. Vol'jin threatened Garrosh with death and whined throughout the entirety of his reign, while Baine went behind his back to help Jaina just like he did with Anduin when it came to Sylvanas.

[TheFirstOnes]

Oh look, BFA's writing sucks.

More news at 11.

Watch Sylvanas become Kerrigan. I'll instantly quit. In fact, that may indeed happen, CONSIDERING THE ART SHIT SHOW KNOWN AS "THREE SISTERS"!!!!!

[Heavy Gains]

My only beloved characters are Alleria Windrunner and Magister Umbric, And I am quite fond of the character development that they will both receive in the upcoming expansion. Umbric will prove his worth to the Alliance by playing a pivotal role in the Alliance War Campaign. Yes, For without Umbric's expertise and cunning, our War Campaign in Zandalar would fail miserably. And the astonishing thing is that Umbric did not join the Alliance out of convenience, like many did in the past, but because he truly believes in the Alliance's ideals of peace, order and justice.

As for Alleria, clearly, she will play a key role in the war against the Void Lords, as she is the first mortal in the history of the cosmos to successfully defy the shadows' whispers, therefore I expect her to have the same role that Illidan had in the last expansion. She will lead the Alliance against the Void Lords. But will Battle for Azeroth ultimately become a Void-centered expansion?

I also appreciate the vital role that Alleria will play in the Battle of Lordaeron, as she will save the High-King's army from certain doom, and her clutch intervention will allow the Alliance to even the odds. And then we see her standing right next to the High-King as they confront a broken and humiliated Saurfang. Her loyalty to the Alliance is undisputed.

The main thing that worries me is Arator. He must not die. He is Alleria's anchor. If he dies, there is a terribly-high chance that Alleria might give into the whispers, and then it will be very hard to restore her sanity. I hope that they did not foreshadow this in the Three Sisters comic. Alleria cannot fall to the shadows and become evil, COME ON. Blizzard has been foreshadowing her return for the last decade, I refuse to believe that she will become a villain right after her reintroduction in the lore.

So, Yes, I am quite satisfied with the narrative of Battle for Azeroth, at least when it comes to my favourite characters. Sure, I'd prefer if Alleria played a more significant role in the Alliance War Campaign and in the fight against G'huun, but it really isn't a problem, especially since she was one of the protagonists of Shadows of Argus. They are probably saving her for a future Void-themed patch/expansion.

My opinion is all 3 of the Windrunner sisters are trash characters and deserve to be taken out as such. Vareesa is by far the worst, with Alleria and Sylvanas being about equally poorly written. I'm looking forward to Alleria becoming a dungeon boss at some point tho, following the "good guy experiences loss, takes high risk for greater good, goes insane, becomes bad guy" arc they love so much. I say dungeon boss because she definitely isn't important enough to become a raid boss.

[xuros]

Yrel is upset her sex tape got out and now shes out to get some payback.