If you've read Before the Storm...what did you think? (Spoilers obviously)

[Directionalk9]

It's impossible to say if Calia will be the progenitor of a new race or not - but given the circumstances, I am thinking she is more likely to be a unique entity unto herself and not any kind of precursor to more of her kind. She's meant to be a bridge, of sorts, between the living and the undead; one that doesn't trigger the atavistic loathing that the living have for the rotting and monstrous appearance of the Forsaken in general.

I think Calia had great potential, she might still, but this direction leaves me doubtful. She was the only good character in the book, with Genn being second. It a bummer she had to be something so weird.

[Gawdzilla]

Finished the book.

It was ok. It had its moments. But for what is being heralded as a Anduin and Sylvanas story....its mostly Anduin. And for the most part it was pretty eh Anduin.

Like I feel that this book tried to tell two stories and both kind felt half loaded. like if they had turned this into two books, one about Azerite and the other about the Gathering...then I think it would have worked.

Golden wrote some good moments here and there but the story didn't really get interesting until we met Elise. Plus I would have actually like to see Sylvanas make some actually allies within the Horde. All she really did was tell Baine he couldn't write to his pen pal anymore and Gallywix invited her to his hot tub. (Funniest scene in the book IMO) like i get why they would downplay Saurfang due to him being a major player in the expansion, but where was Lor'themar?

The whole chapter of Jaina and Kalec was utterly pointless. Like a total missed opportunity to have Jaina and Calia interact. Or you know what would have been neat: Thrall and Sylvanas chatting.

[Syegfryed]

I think their decision to make a holy undead was a bad move. I can live with it if it’s just Calia, but fuck an entire race, bleh. Forsaken are like Night Elves....not my cup of tea.

well tbf odyn did his own holy undead before

[Seylene]

Well the point is not the horde leaving the NE lands. It has to be the horde being forced out. And violently, overwhelmingly and to the point of embarrassment. The Night Elves can lead an alliance force but it has to be mostly them and just destroy the horde and take back their lands. They cannot be given to them because Pride has to remain. Then once the bloody work is done peace can be sued for but if the horde are not utterly obliterated out of Ashenvale etc they will simply come back because nothing is stopping them. That is the only way peace can be had because the Horde is proven they cannot be trusted, even if it is due to idiotic writer caveat and russian roulette of the Warchief that is the story we are stuck with.

[Syegfryed]

Well the point is not the horde leaving the NE lands. It has to be the horde being forced out. And violently, overwhelmingly and to the point of embarrassment.

They would need like all night elves from at least 50 realities to do that

[Dellis0991]

I think Calia had great potential, she might still, but this direction leaves me doubtful. She was the only good character in the book, with Genn being second. It a bummer she had to be something so weird.

The implications of what she is cool but scary....what is she? Is she a puppet of the light now or genuinely something new. I hope she isn't a harbinger of the light spearhead that's coming for us when we hopefully purge the void from Azeroth. We already broke 1 pillar (fel) of balance when we pushed the legion out of Azeroth and I fear that if we break the void pillar the light will do to Azeroth what it did to alt Dreanor.

[Leih]

The implications of what she is cool but scary....what is she? Is she a puppet of the light now or genuinely something new. I hope she isn't a harbinger of the light spearhead that's coming for us when we hopefully purge the void from Azeroth. We already broke 1 pillar (fel) of balance when we pushed the legion out of Azeroth and I fear that if we break the void pillar the light will do to Azeroth what it did to alt Dreanor.

Sort of seems like she's almost the opposite counterpart of Sylvanas now. Both staking a claim to rule Lordaeron and now both Undead. One of Holy origin and one Unholy. Making her undead was probably intended to make this contrast if there's future Calia vs. Sylvanas vying for the hearts of the Forsaken.

[Aucald]

I think Calia had great potential, she might still, but this direction leaves me doubtful. She was the only good character in the book, with Genn being second. It a bummer she had to be something so weird.

I was personally okay with her transformation and the idea that it is a pointed and purposeful one - not something that will be repeated to create an Allied Race of Lightbound Undead or anything such as that. Calia Menethil was a unique character before her transformation given her status as the last living relation to the previous Lich King, and sharing in this state (being undead yet also being Arthas' opposite in many ways) seems like a poetic state for her to arrive to. Part of me thinks that Calia might go on to somehow become the anti-Bolvar, in a sense; a check on the rising power of yet another Lich King. We'll have to wait and see, though.

[Super Dickmann]

I was personally okay with her transformation and the idea that it is a pointed and purposeful one - not something that will be repeated to create an Allied Race of Lightbound Undead or anything such as that. Calia Menethil was a unique character before her transformation given her status as the last living relation to the previous Lich King, and sharing in this state (being undead yet also being Arthas' opposite in many ways) seems like a poetic state for her to arrive to. Part of me thinks that Calia might go on to somehow become the anti-Bolvar, in a sense; a check on the rising power of yet another Lich King. We'll have to wait and see, though.

Given her lack of a model and mention in-game, I'm pretty sure the main reason for Calia's resurrection was just to serve as some more rationalization for Anduin in a book that's almost entirely of it. Consider that without her clarifying things and without her internal narration, one could infer that she really did mean to take over, even if for the best of intentions and that Anduin, by permitting her to do that and leading to her death showed inexperience and jeopardized the chance for a brighter future for the Forsaken. But if he's the one who resurrects her and she gets to explain in detail how she's actually fine, his actions have no consequences. Note how her revival isn't noted in the Epilogue either. For now she's just a plot device to prop up Blanduin's infallibility.

[Zulkhan]

There must be a mistake. It doesn't look like you wrote Shadows of the Horde.

Excatly. Regardless of the story told, Shadows of the Horde is possibly the best written WoW novel of modern times. Stackpole's writing is just so much better than Golden's.

[Kwento]

Excatly. Regardless of the story told, Shadows of the Horde is possibly the best written WoW novel of modern times. Stackpole's writing is just so much better than Golden's.

Oh! I absolutely agree! So nice to see someone else who liked that book!

[Zulkhan]

Well the point is not the horde leaving the NE lands. It has to be the horde being forced out. And violently, overwhelmingly and to the point of embarrassment. The Night Elves can lead an alliance force but it has to be mostly them and just destroy the horde and take back their lands. They cannot be given to them because Pride has to remain. Then once the bloody work is done peace can be sued for but if the horde are not utterly obliterated out of Ashenvale etc they will simply come back because nothing is stopping them. That is the only way peace can be had because the Horde is proven they cannot be trusted, even if it is due to idiotic writer caveat and russian roulette of the Warchief that is the story we are stuck with.

Literally not. You can try and do that but forget about peace.

[Kwento]

I was personally okay with her transformation and the idea that it is a pointed and purposeful one - not something that will be repeated to create an Allied Race of Lightbound Undead or anything such as that. Calia Menethil was a unique character before her transformation given her status as the last living relation to the previous Lich King, and sharing in this state (being undead yet also being Arthas' opposite in many ways) seems like a poetic state for her to arrive to. Part of me thinks that Calia might go on to somehow become the anti-Bolvar, in a sense; a check on the rising power of yet another Lich King. We'll have to wait and see, though.

So... Another “Light conquers all” story?
I really hope Blizzard would get creative with this.

[Zulkhan]

Oh! I absolutely agree! So nice to see someone else who liked that book!

I guarantee the franchise would look way more interesting and solid if Stackpole took the role Golden has taken. I just can't stand the latter's way of writing anymore and she's clearly pushing too many of her personal views and opinions, rather than simply trying to write enganging stories.

[Aucald]

Given her lack of a model and mention in-game, I'm pretty sure the main reason for Calia's resurrection was just to serve as some more rationalization for Anduin in a book that's almost entirely of it. Consider that without her clarifying things and without her internal narration, one could infer that she really did mean to take over, even if for the best of intentions and that Anduin, by permitting her to do that and leading to her death showed inexperience and jeopardized the chance for a brighter future for the Forsaken. But if he's the one who resurrects her and she gets to explain in detail how she's actually fine, his actions have no consequences. Note how her revival isn't noted in the Epilogue either. For now she's just a plot device to prop up Blanduin's infallibility.

I'm not sure how Calia's reanimation/resurrection really "rationalizes" anything for Anduin's character - what happened in the Gathering wasn't his fault (except perhaps in the sense that he was the one who pushed for it to occur). He in no way pushed Calia to reveal herself or declare herself Queen of Lordaeron to the Desolate Council in a bid to get them to defect - we know from both his internal monologue in addition to his actual words to Sylvanas that it wasn't in any way his plan for her to do this, and that he originally thought it a bad idea for Calia to attend before she made her emotional plea to him beforehand. I don't Anduin is presented as infalliable, either; he fails to see what Calia might do, and multiple times he tries to correct his generals about the nature of the Gathering only to be proved wrong on both counts. Sylvanas also scores a major political victory for herself over Anduin - ridding the Forsaken of possible traitors while keeping her hands squeaky clean by abiding to the terms of the Gathering to both letter and spirit. There's nothing infalliable in that, it was for all intents and purposes an Alliance loss if you consider it a soft conflict.

[Super Dickmann]

Excatly. Regardless of the story told, Shadows of the Horde is possibly the best written WoW novel of modern times. Stackpole's writing is just so much better than Golden's.

Shadows of the Horde is the only WoW novel I'd say is legitimately decently written, despite all the limitations a licensed product like a video game tie-in is put under. It also explores world building in interesting ways and has good character writing. Golden is a worse writer in the technical sense and in the narrative one, because while she does decent character dynamics, her biases and lack of depth really show.

I'm not sure how Calia's reanimation/resurrection really "rationalizes" anything for Anduin's character - what happened in the Gathering wasn't his fault (except perhaps in the sense that he was the one who pushed for it to occur). He in no way pushed Calia to reveal herself or declare herself Queen of Lordaeron to the Desolate Council in a bid to get them to defect - we know from both his internal monologue in addition to his actual words to Sylvanas that it wasn't in any way his plan for her to do this, and that he originally thought it a bad idea for Calia to attend before she made her emotional plea to him beforehand. I don't Anduin is presented as infalliable, either; he fails to see what Calia might do, and multiple times he tries to correct his generals about the nature of the Gathering only to be proved wrong on both counts. Sylvanas also scores a major political victory for herself over Anduin - ridding the Forsaken of possible traitors while keeping her hands squeaky clean by abiding to the terms of the Gathering to both letter and spirit. There's nothing infalliable in that, it was for all intents and purposes an Alliance loss if you consider it a soft conflict.

The thing is, if you take out the resurrection, the epilogue follows through as it would before. Anduin even still mentions her death. What changes is how Calia herself is presented and what it means for Anduin. Without it, you can make a case, albeit not a very strong one, that Anduin's inexperience and the fact that he was convinced by her emotional argument lead to her attempting to guide the Forsaken civilian government away from Sylvanas during a meeting that, if successful, might have been good for Alliance-Horde relations in general. Calia's motives would be more up for interpretation and her death as a result of Anduin allowing her to go there would show real consequences for his misjudgment. However, with the resurrection in, she comes back, so Anduin letting her in didn't result in the loss of a chance for a more peaceful Forsaken going forward and she explains her own thought process in detail and absolves Anduin of all responsibility. Couple that with the fact that she says she'll go and learn and take a backseat, basically exiting stage left, her return was more to service Anduin's character than for the Forsaken or the story in general.

[Aucald]

So... Another “Light conquers all” story?
I really hope Blizzard would get creative with this.

It may be "Light conquers all," but given the way the Light has been depicted of late perhaps not in the manner you mean. I found Saa'ra to be sketchy as hell in "Before the Storm," personally; though I don't know if that's just a product of my existing doubt in the Naaru or foreshadowing of a future plots.

[Leih]

Excatly. Regardless of the story told, Shadows of the Horde is possibly the best written WoW novel of modern times. Stackpole's writing is just so much better than Golden's.

I enjoyed the writing, but the actual plot made it a difficult read for me because I found it so uninteresting. I'd like to see what he could do with a more involved WoW novel.

[Aucald]

Excatly. Regardless of the story told, Shadows of the Horde is possibly the best written WoW novel of modern times. Stackpole's writing is just so much better than Golden's.

"Shadows of the Horde" is my favorite WoW novel thus far, but I thought most people hated it due to general revulsion for Vol'jin and Taran Zhu. It's a slow and more philosophical read than the typical sword & sorcery high fantasy one associates with WoW - more a mix of "Seven Samurai" and the "Tao Te Ching" than a young adult "Game of Thrones."

[Super Dickmann]

"Shadows of the Horde" is my favorite WoW novel thus far, but I thought most people hated it due to general revulsion for Vol'jin and Taran Zhu. It's a slow and more philosophical read than the typical sword & sorcery high fantasy one associates with WoW - more a mix of "Seven Samurai" and the "Tao Te Ching" than a young adult "Game of Thrones."

I think if Vol'jin were presented as he was in Shadows of the Horde and his leader story, he'd be a much more favourably viewed character. But a mixture of the dialogue changes that undercut him while speaking to the Alliance, his complete uninvolvement as Warchief to the point where we have no idea how he actually ran the Horde and his unceremonious death by a throw-away mob didn't do him any favours. I like Vol'jin theoretically and given his ties to both Zandalar and his existing grudge for Kul Tiras for attacking the Echo Isles he might've made a better Warchief in BFA, but the character in-game is a shitshow and I can see why people don't like him.

Taran Zhu did Legion.