Raiding and M+ are NOT the same content. They need to stop treating it as such.

[shaunika123]

Perhaps if you're chasing top 100 which 99.99% of the people here are not then maybe you are "forced". Get a over it. Usually the m+ chest item isn't an upgrade any way. Oh nooooo I have to spend a 1/2 hour doing one m+ per week on top of the 16 or so hours I spend stroking myself in a raid.

or grind maw of souls 3-4 hours a day to hit 34 traits for helya

or 54 traits for guldan

yeah, it's not just the items.

and with setbonuses and legendaries gone it will be infinitely easier to find upgrades from mythic+

anyway, I wasnt necessarily complaining about it, I'M fine with mythic+
but saying you're not forced to do it is just a blatant lie

[Marrilaife]

I think M+ is more of an "honest" challenge than Mythic raiding. On every raid team, there are basically 2 or so people being carried (unless it is the world first race). When there are only 5 on the team- there is much less room for stuff like that.

Yeah, maybe if you do +25. But currently the +15 for the chest is boosted left right and center.

[Kyanion]

Yeah, maybe if you do +25. But currently the +15 for the chest is boosted left right and center.

You do realize the amount of people doing m+ boosting groups is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of people actually doing M+.

[owbu]

If you want to just raid, you can just raid.

If you decide to be a competitive pve player, however, that means doing all the pve content the game offers you. That used to mean farming mats for potion, then it meant doing daily heroics for valor, then it meant playing facebook games, now it means doing one m+ run a week.

You can complain about that, of course (worked for the facebook game) to make non raiding time about something else again, but I wouldn't hold my breath. M+ seems so be popular and Blizzard is not going to start making your m+ gear not work in raids.

[Netherspark]

I have to agree. I cannot stand the grind that Mythic+ became but if I don't do it and keep doing it every week my gear falls behind the rest of my guild. Throughout Legion I was consistently 10 or more item levels below everyone else in my guild despite having the best raid attendance, all because I simply refused to let Mythic+ dominate my play time.

Aside from the obligatory grinding, we now have a system where raid gear is generally inferior to dungeon gear. Unless you're raiding mythic and reaching the ilv cap Mythic+ will always have better gear available to you than raiding does. It literally invalidates raid gear. Whatever level you raid at there is always better and easier loot from dungeons. Hell, the best quality items are even guaranteed drops!

There is no reason at all for Mythic dungeon gear to scale beyond the level of raid gear. If anything your dungeon loot should be capped at the item level of the highest raid you've cleared.

People are only thinking about the disproportionate rewards they're getting from Mythic+, while ignoring the problems those rewards cause for the game.

I wonder when people will stop using this argument.

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

you dont "feel" forced, you ARE forced.

Even Heroic raiders are obligated to grind Mythic+. Being able to get mythic raid quality gear without actually doing any mythic raids is a no-brainer. You will grind it or be fucked.

[Alvito]

It is clear that not only does Blizzard want to open up multiple ways for people to play they game they also want to drastically dial back the strangle hold raiding has on the PVE part of the game. Raid development has to be one of the biggest time sinks for employee hours for them and so little really do anything with it. Now the problem they will run into and hopefully have already figured out, without the importance and availability of good raid content the participation in other content vanishes.

[Kyanion]

Even Heroic raiders are obligated to grind Mythic+. Being able to get mythic raid quality gear without actually doing any mythic raids is a no-brainer. You will grind it or be fucked.

I dunno if you know some heroic or mythic raiders but not all of them are 'obligated' to do M+. Not everyone is world first mentality and can do just fine without doing that portion of the game.

[PaladinBash]

I dunno if you know some heroic or mythic raiders but not all of them are 'obligated' to do M+. Not everyone is world first mentality and can do just fine without doing that portion of the game.

I think this is an obvious point people are overlooking. Heroic 'raiders' are absolutely not concerned with world first races or even server first ones. Casuals do like nice gear, sure, but they are not under any obligation to get it besides "hey I want this cool piece of gear". That's encouragement not obligation and some kids here need to learn that.

[Wildpantz]

You are not forced to do it unless you are a world top50 raider. I assume youre one of thoose who think split raids is needed for all mythic guilds

[Wondercrab]

I don't think there's a way of fixing this without the massive downsides outweighing the minimal upsides. Whatever you do you wind up making someone's playstyle obsolete. The current system seems like the most fair version. The only stumbling block is a social one based on player expectations within a niche group, and that's better than a hard mechanical restriction that actively stops people from playing the way they want to.

Keep in mind that when a dev says "worked well" in regards to something like this they're speaking from a broad, game-wide perspective. A feature can work well for the playerbase as a whole and still suck for a small part of it.

[Kyanion]

I think this is an obvious point people are overlooking. Heroic 'raiders' are absolutely not concerned with world first races or even server first ones. Casuals do like nice gear, sure, but they are not under any obligation to get it besides "hey I want this cool piece of gear". That's encouragement not obligation and some kids here need to learn that.

Pretty much, hell it even spills over to a large portion of Mythic raiding too. Most people aren't world firsting and are in more casual based mythic guilds that don't force their raiders to grind everything they possibly can for a slight edge.

[glowpipe]

If you are a mythic raider, you put int he effort it takes to be a mythic raider. if not, your not a mythic raider. Simple aint it ?

[shaunika123]

I believe there should be multiple pathways (of the same level of challenge) to the "best" gear. This way, you can chose the one you like best and play it.

I think M+ is more of an "honest" challenge than Mythic raiding. On every raid team, there are basically 2 or so people being carried (unless it is the world first race). When there are only 5 on the team- there is much less room for stuff like that.

it's also much easier to do though just for gear

compare a m+15 to a mythic aggramar or argus
it's night and day.

it's also infinitely easier to get 5 good people together than 20
so yeah a few might be carried, but that also means that you HAVE to carry that few.

[Alydael]

Yeah, maybe if you do +25. But currently the +15 for the chest is boosted left right and center.

Yeah, I'm talking about people pushing content- not farming.

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it's also much easier to do though just for gear

compare a m+15 to a mythic aggramar or argus
it's night and day.

it's also infinitely easier to get 5 good people together than 20
so yeah a few might be carried, but that also means that you HAVE to carry that few.

I always thought you should get the gear because your skill defeated a challenge in game- not because you have strong friends or relatives...

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

If you don't like playing the game, then don't play it.

I assumed this was about the absurd thing Ion said about not being able to switch gear compared to people wanting to switch talents in the middle of a raid encounter.

I'm not sure why anyone would willfully advocate for LESS pathways of progression to be in the game though.
Probably time for a break.

[Marrilaife]

You do realize the amount of people doing m+ boosting groups is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of people actually doing M+.

Point was about how in mythic raiding ppl get carried but in m+ they supposedly don't. Well they do. And it's easier to carry through m+15 than through the mythic raid. The carriability of m+15 is only slightly less than carriability of hc raiding, and definitely more than mythic raiding. Much fewer groups sell mythic raid clears than m+15 clears, but on the other hand even more groups sell hc / curve carries.

Can m+ be fun, challenging and more interesting than raiding? For some, it already is. It is really "an honest challenge with no room for carrying dead weight"? Nope. And it's very idealistic to believe so.

[Onikaroshi]

or grind maw of souls 3-4 hours a day to hit 34 traits for helya

or 54 traits for guldan

yeah, it's not just the items.

and with setbonuses and legendaries gone it will be infinitely easier to find upgrades from mythic+

anyway, I wasnt necessarily complaining about it, I'M fine with mythic+
but saying you're not forced to do it is just a blatant lie

The hardcore created the AP problem themselves really. Blizzard tuned Mythic EN for far less traits then the top end managed to get via sheer grinding and determination, and then bitched it was too easy (not so much the WF guilds, but other "high end" guilds). Blizzard was like fine, and tuned helya and gul'dan outside of the average persons reach trait wise because, as they said before NH, "We tuned Gul'dan for 54 traits because that's what people will have".

If they hadn't have gone so hardcore on it... who knows, that's a whole other universe.

[shaunika123]

Yeah, I'm talking about people pushing content- not farming.

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I always thought you should get the gear because your skill defeated a challenge in game- not because you have strong friends or relatives...

boosting someone in a +15 is way easier than boosting someone in mythic antorus :P

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The hardcore created the AP problem themselves really. Blizzard tuned Mythic EN for far less traits then the top end managed to get via sheer grinding and determination, and then bitched it was too easy (not so much the WF guilds, but other "high end" guilds). Blizzard was like fine, and tuned helya and gul'dan outside of the average persons reach trait wise because, as they said before NH, "We tuned Gul'dan for 54 traits because that's what people will have".

If they hadn't have gone so hardcore on it... who knows, that's a whole other universe.

or they couldve not designed a system that makes content either a pushover or a chore with no inbetween under the guise of "repeatable content" in addition to the best source of it was outside raids, which was the dumbest thing ever.
how about that?

[Onikaroshi]

boosting someone in a +15 is way easier than boosting someone in mythic antorus :P

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or they couldve not designed a system that makes content either a pushover or a chore with no inbetween under the guise of "repeatable content"
how about that?

AP worked fine for 99% of the people playing, sucks that the 1% killed themselves on that and Legendaries, but you don't design a game for 1% of your players.

[Nahela]

Mythic raiding is intended to be the highest level of content in the game, that requires the most input. The fact that M+ gives out such strong gear for so little time investment is an enormous benefit.

If you're raiding content at a level where this doesn't matter (i.e. normal/heroic), then you don't need to be doing M+ either.