Raiding and M+ are NOT the same content. They need to stop treating it as such.

[hulkgor]

They just confirmed in the Q&A that Raiding and Mythic+ gear rewards will work the same as it did in Legion.

"Mythic 10 will yield the best possible loot once everything is unlocked, Heroic Uldir items from runs, Mythic Uldir from the weekly chest. This model worked well in Legion, so no reason to change it."

I personally hated this model. I do not enjoy Mythic+ content for a number of reasons, yet I feel like I am forced to do it as a Raider. This was my primary concern with BfA, as it was the thing I hated the most in Legion. I essentially had to faceroll content that I didn't enjoy, or I wouldn't be up to par with those who did.

The relaxed progression-based nature of Raiding is VERY different to the rushed time-attack content that is Mythic+. I find it absurd that these very different features and gameplay aspects share the same type of reward pool. I'm honestly amazed that they thought this "worked well in Legion", because I for one thought it was incredibly annoying.

What an absurd complaint. Seriously.

Mythic+ was the best thing implemented in WoW since it's release, and there's finally an end game alternative for people without the time or will to commit to raiding schedules, yet here you are, as a special snowflake, complaining you're "forced" to do it? What the fuck? Do you have a gun yo your head?

Get a fucking grip dude.

[shaunika123]

The mythic+ livestream tournaments were the most successful events for wow. So, yes, mythic+ is a success.

And you don't have to do it. You just get one additional piece of loot each week. That's nothing compared to a raid clear.

no tier sets and legendaries from raid means half of your bis items are going to be from m+
spamming them will be insanely lucrative and they'll reward better gear than raids with enough time put in (since they can be infintely done)

[Thage]

I wonder when people will stop using this argument.

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

you dont "feel" forced, you ARE forced.

If you want the benefits of a hardcore playstyle, expect to have to engage in a hardcore playstyle and stop asking to be hand-held through the grinding/farming part of hardcore raiding. That shit's how we got WoD's gearing path.

[Lahis]

Do the weekly run for the Mythic quality chest.

Heroic loot is mostly irrelevant after few resets.

[RoKPaNda]

Your argument backwards is that M+ players aren't forced to get raiding gear. Should they? yeah. Is it required? No.

When getting Mythic raiding equivalent piece of gear with little to no effort it quickly becomes a requirement. Just as having flasks, potions etc. are required since getting them is generally little effort.


M+ doens't trivialize raiding and raiding doesn't trivialize M+. Facerolling through Heroic (aka when you already have gear to actually faceroll it) means you can faceroll through +15's.
However if you are gearing up you can do LFR/Normal runs with people in equal gear or you can do M+5-15's with people in equal gear. Neither will be facerolled but both provide about the same upgrades in terms of ilvl, the big exception is that you can only raid once but you can run M+ infinitely.

Infinite farming in Legion was countered by the fact that you needed luck to get even heroic ilvl equivalent gear and the fact that raids had tier sets. In BfA raid tier sets have been removed and M+ base ilvl matched (according to Q&A) to Heroic raiding. If WF/TF actually becomes less common (which it hasn't, per my own experience on beta) it would be ok-ish, now its just infinite farm for best gear in the game.

To balance that fact, we either need Heroic raids (and other difficulties) have no loot lockouts or M+ needs to have a loot lockout. Either one works to balance it out.

If you think raiding doesn't Trivialize M+ you're kidding yourself. In BfA with the loss of set bonuses the impact might be smaller, but raiding definitely trivalizes M+.

And no, we need neither of those things.

[shaunika123]

What an absurd complaint. Seriously.

Mythic+ was the best thing implemented in WoW since it's release, and there's finally an end game alternative for people without the time or will to commit to raiding schedules, yet here you are, as a special snowflake, complaining you're "forced" to do it? What the fuck? Do you have a gun yo your head?

Get a fucking grip dude.

the problem comes when it's no longer an "alternative" content, but an "additive" content, on top of raids that you have to do to be competitive.

as I said, Imagine if you had to do pet battles to gear up for arena, or had to get gladiator to gear up for mythic+

content should be separate and not stack on each other.

like right now if you want to be competitive in m+ you HAVE to raid to get your tier bonuses, argus trinkets etc.
do you think that's a good design? no? then why is it good the other way around?

the best way to get raiding gear should not come from outside of the raids, especially not from an infinitely spammable content.

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If you want the benefits of a hardcore playstyle, expect to have to engage in a hardcore playstyle and stop asking to be hand-held through the grinding/farming part of hardcore raiding. That shit's how we got WoD's gearing path.

I'd love to have wod's gearing path back

if you were a raider, you raided and nothing else, that's how it should be

just like how you dont need to raid to do pvp, then why do I need to do m+ to raid?

[Deleted]

They just confirmed in the Q&A that Raiding and Mythic+ gear rewards will work the same as it did in Legion.

"Mythic 10 will yield the best possible loot once everything is unlocked, Heroic Uldir items from runs, Mythic Uldir from the weekly chest. This model worked well in Legion, so no reason to change it."

I personally hated this model. I do not enjoy Mythic+ content for a number of reasons, yet I feel like I am forced to do it as a Raider. This was my primary concern with BfA, as it was the thing I hated the most in Legion. I essentially had to faceroll content that I didn't enjoy, or I wouldn't be up to par with those who did.

The relaxed progression-based nature of Raiding is VERY different to the rushed time-attack content that is Mythic+. I find it absurd that these very different features and gameplay aspects share the same type of reward pool. I'm honestly amazed that they thought this "worked well in Legion", because I for one thought it was incredibly annoying.

Please stop being a complete rtard. Christ.

What did we have before Mythic+? Nothing. You just did raids and you would do fine. You can still do this, but if you want extra gear, you have the option to do Mythics.

You are NOT forced.

My god.

[Thage]

tI'd love to have wod's gearing path back

if you were a raider, you raided and nothing else, that's how it should be

If you weren't a raider, you had no gearing path. That is a disastrous gearing path for anyone but the laziest of wannabe midcore raiders. And again, if you want the benefits of a hardcore playstyle, be prepared to engage in a hardcore playstyle or admit you simply want to be handheld through the game so you don't have to do things. Like, say, a casual player might.

Is there a term for that? A crybaby casual raider who wants to play Mythic with the big boys but doesn't want to put in the work?

just like how you dont need to raid to do pvp, then why do I need to do m+ to raid?

Oh you sweet, sweet summer child. Back when raiders actually played hardcore, rather than pretended to be, raid gear was hands-down best in slot gear for PvP without question, with t3 raiders plowing through even geared Grand Marshals/High Warlords.

[Deleted]

the problem comes when it's no longer an "alternative" content, but an "additive" content, on top of raids that you have to do to be competitive.

as I said, Imagine if you had to do pet battles to gear up for arena, or had to get gladiator to gear up for mythic+

content should be separate and not stack on each other.

like right now if you want to be competitive in m+ you HAVE to raid to get your tier bonuses, argus trinkets etc.
do you think that's a good design? no? then why is it good the other way around?

the best way to get raiding gear should not come from outside of the raids, especially not from an infinitely spammable content.

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I'd love to have wod's gearing path back

if you were a raider, you raided and nothing else, that's how it should be

just like how you dont need to raid to do pvp, then why do I need to do m+ to raid?

Really?

IF you are hardcore, then you will, without ANY question, go farm the highest level of Mythic+.

IF you are NOT hardcore, then you don't. You do your LFR/NORMAL and after a million days later with the raid-nerfs, you can try HC(this is actually how the majority plays the game).

Mythic+ is and the perfect solution for many endgame issues.

[Erwarth]

Really?

IF you are hardcore, then you will, without ANY question, go farm the highest level of Mythic+.

IF you are NOT hardcore, then you don't. You do your LFR/NORMAL and after a million days later with the raid-nerfs, you can try HC(this is actually how the majority plays the game).

Mythic+ is and the perfect solution for many endgame issues.

HC isn't hardcore and what you describe is a tryhard.

[Deleted]

HC isn't hardcore and what you describe is a tryhard.

IF you are NOT hardcore, then you don't. You do your LFR/NORMAL and after a million days later with the raid-nerfs, you can try HC(this is actually how the majority plays the game).

Yes, majority is according to statistics, bunch of tryhards. Hence, since you are tryhard, Mythic+ should not concern you.

Ever since Mythic Raiding got implemented, only 5% of the community on average, actually finished ANY Mythic Raid.

People likes to be loud.

[Jastall]

I remember when being a competitive raider meant raiding, gearing up, and then tackling more raids. Now it means Mythic Plus, Emissaries, World Quests....

There's so much in this game for so many people. Some people like achievement hunting, some people like leveling alts, some people like progression raiding, and on and on. Why not just let people do what they want to do? There shouldn't be unnecessary overlap.

Imagine being an altoholic but before you could create any new characters you had to defeat a Heroic raid encounter? Or if you just wanted to farm achievements you had to first clear a Mythic Plus dungeon? It's like a theme park where, before you can ride the thrill coaster you're after, you first have to spend thirty minutes doing a lap on the monorail.

Literally only happened in WoD. Every other expansion demanded that you farm stuff outside of raids, from Classic resist gear/consumables to Wrath emblems to Cata/MoP Valor and reputations. Legion went overboard in the early days with crushing AP demands and Legendary RNG, but the notion that raiders should just have to log in, raid, log out is not borne out by experience at all.

In BfA it looks like your out of raid prep will be one M+ dungeon and some character-wide AP so that you can use the traits from the higher level Azerite armors, which seems a lot less of a hassle than the AP in Legion. That's really not asking for too much.

[Checkt]

They just confirmed in the Q&A that Raiding and Mythic+ gear rewards will work the same as it did in Legion.

I personally hated this model. I do not enjoy Mythic+ content for a number of reasons, yet I feel like I am forced to do it as a Raider. This was my primary concern with BfA, as it was the thing I hated the most in Legion. I essentially had to faceroll content that I didn't enjoy, or I wouldn't be up to par with those who did.

The relaxed progression-based nature of Raiding is VERY different to the rushed time-attack content that is Mythic+. I find it absurd that these very different features and gameplay aspects share the same type of reward pool. I'm honestly amazed that they thought this "worked well in Legion", because I for one thought it was incredibly annoying.

I went through and bolded everything about this response that you need to read, and read, and then read again until you get it. You're welcome.


M+ is widely considered to be the best thing about Legion. It fixed the problem of 5 mans becoming irrelevant a week into the xpac, and it gave people something to do that continually gave them a suitable reward after. Just because you hated it doesn't mean everyone, or even close to everyone, did (which is something this forum could greatly learn from, but will never).

It definitely had some bugs, and I think they're fixing it, but it was a great system.

[Feida]

What an absurd complaint. Seriously.

Mythic+ was the best thing implemented in WoW since it's release, and there's finally an end game alternative for people without the time or will to commit to raiding schedules, yet here you are, as a special snowflake, complaining you're "forced" to do it? What the fuck? Do you have a gun yo your head?

Get a fucking grip dude.

Try reading my follow-up first.

Mythic+ content on it's own is incredible, but it doesn't appeal to everyone. With such a heavy incentive to do things you don't like in order to compete properly in the things you like simply doesn't feel right.

Before you reply to this, just know that this is an opinion.

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I went through and bolded everything about this response that you need to read, and read, and then read again until you get it. You're welcome.


M+ is widely considered to be the best thing about Legion. It fixed the problem of 5 mans becoming irrelevant a week into the xpac, and it gave people something to do that continually gave them a suitable reward after. Just because you hated it doesn't mean everyone, or even close to everyone, did (which is something this forum could greatly learn from, but will never).

It definitely had some bugs, and I think they're fixing it, but it was a great system.

I'm not dissing the system, I was quite heated when I wrote that post. I made a proper followup earlier.

[shaunika123]

Really?

IF you are hardcore, then you will, without ANY question, go farm the highest level of Mythic+.

IF you are NOT hardcore, then you don't. You do your LFR/NORMAL and after a million days later with the raid-nerfs, you can try HC(this is actually how the majority plays the game).

Mythic+ is and the perfect solution for many endgame issues.

honestly at this point its like talking to a wall.

OF COURSE IM FUCKING GONNA DO IT, BECAUSE I HAVE TO. THAT'S THE POINT.

does that mean I instantly enjoy doing it? no it doesnt
does that mean it's not a chore? no it doesnt

If you weren't a raider, you had no gearing path. That is a disastrous gearing path for anyone but the laziest of wannabe midcore raiders. And again, if you want the benefits of a hardcore playstyle, be prepared to engage in a hardcore playstyle or admit you simply want to be handheld through the game so you don't have to do things. Like, say, a casual player might.

Is there a term for that? A crybaby casual raider who wants to play Mythic with the big boys but doesn't want to put in the work?

I thought that rewarding you based on how well you play the raid and not how much you raid external content is a better model, shocking I Know.

Oh you sweet, sweet summer child. Back when raiders actually played hardcore, rather than pretended to be, raid gear was hands-down best in slot gear for PvP without question, with t3 raiders plowing through even geared Grand Marshals/High Warlords.

so what? i know it was like that. do you wan that back?
no it sucked which is why we went away from it.

so why do raiders need to suffer the same thing? revenge?

and yes I know it sucked if you werent a raider which is why I think m+ is great, they shouldve just made it separate from raiding because this way its annoying to both parties

mythic+ people will inevitably have to raid to perform the best and vica versa

[tikcol]

Why aren't you arguing that you're forced to raid instead?

[Nnyco]

if you are a high end mythic raider then thats part of it
if you are not, then who cares

[lappee]

If you think raiding doesn't Trivialize M+ you're kidding yourself. In BfA with the loss of set bonuses the impact might be smaller, but raiding definitely trivalizes M+.

And no, we need neither of those things.

It simply doesn't trivialize it. You can get gear from raiding and do M+ easily, or you can get gear from M+ and do raiding easily. You will get the gear from both sources and neither trivializes each other unless you do content that is trivial to your ilvl as in doing LFR with full 960 gear from m+

Currently you get Set bonuses from raiding, form M+ you get infinite loot with the cost of some base ilvl. Raiding loses its benefit so M+ will be ahead which is why we need the lockout changes to either one.

[Clozer]

Spending 20 minutes doing one dungeon a week is too much hassle for the sick raider, who spend 16 hours a week wiping to the same boss. Can't take you serious. LuL

[Dacien]

Literally only happened in WoD. Every other expansion demanded that you farm stuff outside of raids, from Classic resist gear/consumables to Wrath emblems to Cata/MoP Valor and reputations. Legion went overboard in the early days with crushing AP demands and Legendary RNG, but the notion that raiders should just have to log in, raid, log out is not borne out by experience at all.

In BfA it looks like your out of raid prep will be one M+ dungeon and some character-wide AP so that you can use the traits from the higher level Azerite armors, which seems a lot less of a hassle than the AP in Legion. That's really not asking for too much.

I actually forgot all about Valor Points in Cata. I don't know what it is about Mythic Plus that makes me sad every week. I put it off till Monday sometimes.