Blizzard spending their time on...

[Kaver]

That doesn't mean they are bad. It just means they don't produce the bestest of the best numbers. Say Eyebeam, Bladance, and Fel Eruption/Barrage builds were the top three DPS builds for all classes. The majority would still play the top parsing build regardless of how close they were to each other. Thus keeping the cookie cutter builds alive despite having three competitive builds.

I don't think it is completely true. There are a lot of talents (especially in the T100 row) which are really bad. An example:

Unholy Death Knight have Dark Arbiter and Soul Reaper as their single target options in the T100 talent row. Right now Soul Reaper does around 500 k less dps than Dark Arbiter. This make Soul Reaper really bad and the gap between the talents is way too large.

If Soul Reaper did only did 100-150 k less dps, then Dark Arbiter would still be the choice for the cookie cutter build but because Soul Reaper is easier to use, it could still be picked in fights with very demanding mechanics or for progression even though it doesn't provide the highest damage.

[m4xc4v413r4]

oh damn, another threat from a clueless person about a subject that has been discussed a million times.

stop spending time on new systems like Artifact/Azeroth power, Netherlight Crucible etc. and instead use their time to optimize the current class talents

Why do you even think one is even connected to the other? The class balance team doesn't create features. Why would anyone think people inside a company, especially on of this kind of size, work on every department and by using their time on something it means they didn't use it on something of a completely different department? How is that logical in any way?

When you see someone mopping the floor on the supermarket do you wonder why that person isn't on the checkout instead so you don't have to wait in line while one of the registers is closed?

[Kaver]

Why do you even think one is even connected to the other? The class balance team doesn't create features. Why would anyone think people inside a company, especially on of this kind of size, work on every department and by using their time on something it means they didn't use it on something of a completely different department? How is that logical in any way?

I think class talents and systems like the Legendaries/Artifact weapons are pretty closely tied. Therefore I would think it is the same team that develope both or at least the teams have a lot of communication. Otherwise it is always a possibility to change the focus of teams inside the company.

My main point is just that they are using ressources to develop new systems that are not working they way that Blizzard say they will when they announce them. I'm just questioning if it is necessary to continue this path.

It is completely fair if you don't agree. Remember I haven't done anything to you personally.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Again, this is a subscription based game.
Lets try it with the example of Legion. The best possible result for Blizzard is a player who buys the expansion itself at launch and plays for the whole expansion, which are 24 months.
This means in numbers:
Selling the expansion: 39,99 Euro
Selling 24 months of game time: 12,99x24= ~318 Euro.
This does of course not include other things that active players buy: server transfers, character adaptions, mounts and pets and it does not include the wow token.
However it should show you why you are wrong about your critique on preordering in a subscription based game.
From a business point of view they did not earn 40 Euro for a sold game if the player cancels after one month, they lost out of over 300 Euro. And since is harder to get a disappointed person back than to simply keep them playing, it is not in their interest at all to only care about expansion sales. The only number that counts are active subscriptions.

Where you went wrong was typing this out. Pre-orders have ruined the industry.

[Dystemper]

Remember Ion saying repeatedly that They were happy with how all the classes were playing except Survival and they didnt expect to do any major reworks or adjusting. Then suddenly they are scrambling to fox all these classes because it looks like Azurite Armor is not working properly. Peperidge Farm remembers

[Kaver]

Well, I rather have Island adventures and Campaigns than a new bloody AH interface

Other than that...create 3 different play styles for each specc at max level - somebody figures out what the "best" is, everyone uses that (even if it is less fun, as long as it allegedly does moar dps)

But the power gaps between talents could be smaller than they are now now. Then easier talents could be used in situations with difficult mechanics even though they are a little worse than the best talents. Talents will never perform exactly the same but that doesnt mean that the difference between two T100 talents should be 500 k dps.

[Shakou]

Honestly they've done a good job of optimizing talents for single target and aoe/cleave play and in between. Honestly, they did in Legion too for most specs. It's not perfect but it's a far cry from everyone having a locked in cookie cutter build for all situations, tanks and heals in particular need work in this department. If you were expecting more than a best aoe build, best single target and something in between I don't even know what fucking game you're playing but it's a huge step up from "I never change my talents at all really".

[Kaver]

Honestly they've done a good job of optimizing talents for single target and aoe/cleave play and in between. Honestly, they did in Legion too for most specs. It's not perfect but it's a far cry from everyone having a locked in cookie cutter build for all situations, tanks and heals in particular need work in this department. If you were expecting more than a best aoe build, best single target and something in between I don't even know what fucking game you're playing but it's a huge step up from "I never change my talents at all really".

It has definitely become better. But I actually think all these new things which also impact class performance like Legendaries, Artifact weapons etc. makes it even harder for Blizzard to Balance the classes. I also think that this is one of the reasons why they removed the tier sets because they had such a big impact on how talents worked. Some talents needed to be nerfed when they launched a new raid because the synergy with a certain tier bonus were too good. Like the Frost Death Knight tier bonus in Nighthold that gave them more Rime procs, so everything that had to do with buffing Howling Blast they had to nerf. I think they should just focus on one system instead if keep introducing all these new things that just makes the balancing job even harder.

They keep saying things like "oh this new system will fill the gap..." but it never does. It just makes things harder for them to keep balanced. Keep it simple.

[Wondercrab]

I generally agree that temporary progression treadmill systems like Artifacts and Azerite aren't the best use of the devs' time. They're a rather shallow way of prolonging player engagement, and I have very little investment in them personally since I know they'll be going away at the end of their expansions. That's not to say that they're absolutely awful or anything, but I think development time would be better spent looking into features that can be carried forward and built upon more robustly in the future.

[netherflame]

I was thinking that Blizzard should maybe stop spending time on new systems like Artifact/Azeroth power, Netherlight Crucible etc. and instead use their time to optimize the current class talents. Right now most spec has a cookie cutter build and I think that if Blizzard started spending more time on the talents instead of on new systems, they could make it more possible to really have more talent options. Some talents will of course always be better than other but if the power gap between them could be reduced it would make the 2nd and 3rd best talents in a row more likely to be used.

For me it would be cool and give a lot of variance if they per spec could create 3 different playstyles based on the 3 T100 talents. When I say different playstyles you should of course take it with a pinch of salt. I know the "playstyles" per spec would still be based on the same core abilities.

This way a Rogue for example, would have 9 different playstyle based on the 9 different T100 talents. I think this would be a much better use of Blizzard's time instead of investing it in new systems that never really work out as intended.

This is not intended to be an "I told you so" post.

I just wanted to put focus on: "creating new systems vs. optimizing existing systems" for the future expansions.

I'm glad you're not a game designer because the game would be terrible then.

[Kaver]

I'm glad you're not a game designer because the game would be terrible then.

Me too. Your comment is very valuable in this debate. Luckily I'm just bouncing of ideas because I think the current path of class design isn't quite working. My main point is that introducing systems like the Legendaries, Artifact weapons etc. is not making the balancing job easier. Then they have to also nerf/buff a lot of artifact traits and legendary bonuses on top of the talents. So maybe they should just keep their lifes easier by sticking with only one system. I'm glad we live in a world where we can share ideas openly without being a game designer.

I think we all can agree that balancing talents is not the easiest thing in the world to do. So why make it even harder?

[Vynestra]

Yes, what we need is them to not work on a new temp-gear system like artifacts/azerite and try working on talents to balance them which is almost impossible, then people can be unhappy about their class AND bitch and moan that they aren't working on enough content like artifacts/azerite gear.

great idea.

We need more "WHY IS THERE NO CONTENT/WHERES THE CONTENT/WHY XPAC X WILL FAIL/DID BLIZZ ADMIT FAILURE WITH AP/etc."

[Byleth]

I'd honestly prefer a wide range of new systems.

Balance isn't my jam. I'm going to play my class no matter what.

[Erwarth]

Where you went wrong was typing this out. Pre-orders have ruined the industry.

But he's right.

Pre-orders have ruined Mass Effect and other games but has no effect on subscription based game because it's not their biggest sources of cash.

[CptEgo]

Wow, another 'shit on Blizzard' thread where everyone agrees WoW is the worst game ever, I'm not surprised.

[Starscream101]

I wish they would go back to the way it was in WoD to get PvP. No one wanted the bar filler or a chest with random gear just put it back on the vendor.

[Kaver]

Yes, what we need is them to not work on a new temp-gear system like artifacts/azerite and try working on talents to balance them which is almost impossible, then people can be unhappy about their class AND bitch and moan that they aren't working on enough content like artifacts/azerite gear.

great idea.

We need more "WHY IS THERE NO CONTENT/WHERES THE CONTENT/WHY XPAC X WILL FAIL/DID BLIZZ ADMIT FAILURE WITH AP/etc."

Fair point. You could easily get it through without the sarcasm though

- - - Updated - - -

I'd honestly prefer a wide range of new systems.

Balance isn't my jam. I'm going to play my class no matter what.

That's a completely fair opinion to have.

I just hate getting stuck with only 1 T100 talent for the whole expansion when there should be 2 other options available. Luckily I'm not playing a Ret Pala, but if I did I would really be sad about the alternatives they made for Crusade in Legion.

[Accendor]

Where you went wrong was typing this out. Pre-orders have ruined the industry.

Please read the text again and explain to me again why preorders ate bad for a subscription based game.
Not for games in general, I very well understand why it is bad to preorder anything that only includes a one time fee or microtransactions.

[Neviriah]

Ugh.... I can't wait for the next expansion to be announced so people finally stop shitting on BfA because then they have a new target. How tiring this is. Every day a new post just to bash bfa or blizzard. Get a grip people ¬_¬

[Sinte]

There literally is no way to get away from cookie cutter builds. They give you choice, one of those choices will always be superior to others, unless they literally copy paste 3 spells.

Choice =/= Unique.