The tank threat nerf on beta is going to destroy m+ pugging.

[exochaft]

Which has actually nothing at all to do with anything I said. I didn't speculate about player skill, just that there is no compelling reason that it shouldn't be puggable, and that were it not puggable the amount of people doing it would be cut down significantly.

That's the whole reason for its success: mythic+ is accessible and puggable, especially across realms. With respect to threat, it might not even be an issue if Blizz is successful in its endeavor to slow down combat (again). The problem comes when there are DPS classes that have tons of burst, controlled or not. I can remember the first half of Legion, especially on Skittish weeks, where you could have Fury warriors going splat in their openers. Delaying helped, but it's not likely fun going back to the "wait for 5 sunders" mentality either, especially if the fault is class design and not the player. The threat change won't affect my ability to tank stuff, but it will have some effect on the average tank. If the change is really meant for really high level keys, Blizz could've just had another affix apply to 10/15 keys, where tank threat drops... again, it's assuming the change is only meant for high level keys, which it probably is not.

making tanking a bit more engaging ? using abilities to gain and hold aggro rather than pushing 2 buttons and go afk til next group

If I recall, the whole reason for the really high threat threat was that Blizz wanted tanks to focus on survival and "tank stuff" when it comes to mob management and positioning (at least in Legion with respect to at least Taunt, iirc). Sort of a fire-and-forget threat model to help out tanks of lesser skill deal with all the jobs of being a tank. Not saying they're right or wrong in the matter, that's just how it was described in a blue post a while back.

[Mask]

TBH they didn't go far enough. Threat should be back to vanilla levels where rogues had to use feint on cooldown and hunter had to feign death to keep from pulling aggro. It was one of those small things that kept gameplay interactive between the DPS and the tank rather than everyone just being lost in their own rotation with no cares about what the other players are doing.

[Vorenos]

I still don't get what the point of it was. Threat isn't a fun mechanic at all.

Agreed completely. It really seems like a step backwards with no real positive outcome.

[Schizoide]

This change is going to hurt pugging in general as queue times are typically spent waiting for a tank and the change makes tanking more stressful. Like all changes from the current devteam, they really aren't interested in feedback and this change will absolutely be going live whether we like it or not.

[Raelbo]

Which has actually nothing at all to do with anything I said. I didn't speculate about player skill, just that there is no compelling reason that it shouldn't be puggable, and that were it not puggable the amount of people doing it would be cut down significantly.

Not sure how you missed how my point to was pertinent to what you said....

Yes, I agree with you that M+ should be puggable but within constraints ie only at lower levels. There is a massive difference between saying that M+10 should be puggable and saying that M+20 should be puggable. So when you argue that M+ is puggable and that "there is no compelling reason it shouldn't be", that statement needs to be qualified, because it is not universally true of all levels of M+.

M+ is and should be designed first and foremost for organised groups, not for pugs. It's great that pugs can participate at lower levels (and no compelling that they shouldn't be able to), but there is a perfectly good reason to not ensure that it's accessible at the highest levels for pugs, because to do so would likely undermine the challenge for organised groups.

[Alvito]

I still don't get what the point of it was. Threat isn't a fun mechanic at all.

It is to keep people from endlessly kiting mobs in higher levels. It is a poor fix though. There has to be some way to make threat degrade or something like that so people can't smack a mob 1 to 3 times than never worry about threat again and out run debuffs.

[Schizoide]

It is to keep people from endlessly kiting mobs in higher levels. It is a poor fix though. There has to be some way to make threat degrade or something like that so people can't smack a mob 1 to 3 times than never worry about threat again and out run debuffs.

Do you have a source for that or is it just your guess? Hard to imagine they'd change threat game-wide due to an edge case in the highest mythic+ dungeon runs when, as you noted, adding a simple threat degrading mechanic would fix it.

[Soluna]

Dear God, who thought nerfing tank threat by 80% was a good idea? Finding a pug tank is hard enough as it is. Now imagine how much worse it's going to be once idiot DPS in every group scream at the tank for being "bad" because they can't hold aggro. Even if the tank is good, do you really think most random DPS are going to watch their threat? Absolutely not. The mentality of players now is absolutely nothing like it was 10 years ago the last time threat management was a thing. The result is no tanks are going to want to join group finder m+ pugs anymore.

Sure, the change is fine if you happen to have a dedicated group of friends at your beck and call to run m+ with, but people who rely on the group finder are pretty much fucked.

Let me tell you something that might blow your mind, tanks who will lose threat in m+ in BfA aren't tanks you want to push m+ score with. Now, if you worry about doing a +5, well maybe you should raise your standards on what kind of tank you need lol...

[Raelbo]

This change is going to hurt pugging in general as queue times are typically spent waiting for a tank and the change makes tanking more stressful. Like all changes from the current devteam, they really aren't interested in feedback and this change will absolutely be going live whether we like it or not.

What about the feedback that tanking as it currently is boring? Or that threat, as it currently is, is pretty much meaningless?

The devs really are interested in feeback, but it just happens that in this instance the feedback they have chosen to go with contradicts the feedback that you think they should have gone with.

[beelgers]

It is to keep people from endlessly kiting mobs in higher levels. It is a poor fix though. There has to be some way to make threat degrade or something like that so people can't smack a mob 1 to 3 times than never worry about threat again and out run debuffs.

Honestly I think this "fix" should work fine. It should barely be noticeable at all outside of that instance. The only time I see this cropping up in other scenarios is when a caster mob gets slightly outside a tank's aoe. I don't think that's an actual issue though. That mob should probably peel away from the tank. Still, that wasn't a problem in MoP so it shouldn't be in BFA unless tanks are just too used to not even having to tank the mobs at all

If that's actually a problem that needs to be fixed (tanks shouldn't have to be in range of mobs to tank), then where do we draw the line at dumbing down gameplay too far?

[Great Destiny Man]

If I recall, the whole reason for the really high threat threat was that Blizz wanted tanks to focus on survival and "tank stuff" when it comes to mob management and positioning (at least in Legion with respect to at least Taunt, iirc). Sort of a fire-and-forget threat model to help out tanks of lesser skill deal with all the jobs of being a tank. Not saying they're right or wrong in the matter, that's just how it was described in a blue post a while back.

The best I could find was Ghostcrawlers blog post https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...level-midnight. But you're right, intention for quite some time was moving away from tanks focussing on threat.

I find it amusing as considering that the language back then was "it doesn't feel fun to be throttled" it's certainly a regressive move. Then again if they do plan to put Mythic+ rewards on par with raid loot then I am for them making it a harder experience overall (and slow down the pace a bit).

[Xar226]

It will improve players n stop coddling them.

No, it won't. It will just ruin a lot of peoples' enjoyment of the game, make many tanks stop PUG'ing at all outside of extremely high level groups, and thus make it that much harder for the rest of people who PUG to actually get into a dungeon.

I've made this argument many times, but there's just no evidence that players rise to the occasion. Maybe Blizz should never have made tank threat trivial in the first place, but they did and you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube. Players have now been trained for what, five, six years to go ham at the start of a pull? Blizz's lack of any consistency and seeming lack of institutional knowledge is causing design whiplash and it's going to frustrate the hell out of people.

[cparle87]

tanks still do triple agro, stop makin random ass threads to QQ about

So all dps have to do is doing 3.1x more dps than tanks do, instead of 10x more as is now, and they pull. Dps doing 3.1x more dps than tanks sounds quite easy.

[RoKPaNda]

Not sure how you missed how my point to was pertinent to what you said....

Yes, I agree with you that M+ should be puggable but within constraints ie only at lower levels. There is a massive difference between saying that M+10 should be puggable and saying that M+20 should be puggable. So when you argue that M+ is puggable and that "there is no compelling reason it shouldn't be", that statement needs to be qualified, because it is not universally true of all levels of M+.

M+ is and should be designed first and foremost for organised groups, not for pugs. It's great that pugs can participate at lower levels (and no compelling that they shouldn't be able to), but there is a perfectly good reason to not ensure that it's accessible at the highest levels for pugs, because to do so would likely undermine the challenge for organised groups.

And yet people do pug those levels and have all expansion and will in the next expansion. The only point it becomes NOT puggable is well beyond the point where there is a reward for doing so other than to say you can.

[beelgers]

So all dps have to do is doing 3.1x more dps than tanks do, instead of 10x more as is now, and they pull. Dps doing 3.1x more dps than tanks sounds quite easy.

Its actually 400% and that's not counting other stuff like how taunt works.

[TOM_RUS]

It will destroy everything.

[Heladys]

Blizz should implement a default client-side weakaura-style screen-filling text warning and klaxxon: "You pulled threat you utter fuckup!"

That would maybe start to have a chance at teaching people something. As is though 95% of players do not read patch notes or forums and will expect everything to run exactly as it always has: Do any damn thing you want and blame the tank if you don't like how it ended up.

Doesn't make them right, or mean that they should be catered to, but it's gonna happen.

[Xar226]

This change is specifically tailored to the fact people are consistently doing M27 by kiting everything all over the place

I agree this was an issue -- so fix it. Make threat decay over time. If you put one zillion threat out with your DnD and don't re-apply a directed threat mechanic in X seconds, the threat disappears.

it's completely unintended to have players clear those dungeons when the tank gets oneshot by trash if not kiting.

Due respect, I couldn't care less how unintended it is that players found a way to not have their tanks be one-shot in a dungeon. Actually I think that's the best part of the kiting strategy.

The problem is with middling groups trivializing what should be some of the harder pulls in a dungeon by recruiting Brave Sir Robin as their tank.

In any other normal scenario there won't be any issue with threat.

We'll see, but I've already seen some so I'm not convinced. I bet we'll see a threat buff before 8.1. If for no other reason than Blizz simply can't stick with any decision anymore.

[Unholyground]

The reason is because the DPS skill level was almost non existent in recent years outside of high end raiding, they NEVER had to worry about anything other than OH SPOT ON THE GROUND lol. Also this is an awesome way to find out who doesn't wait for the tank and we can let the sorry bastards die, I for one don't taunt off of someone who doesn't wait for me.

[Zka]

Tanks should once again rotate their targets in multipulls, THE HORROR