Why BFA class design is a good thing

[Deleted]

So this is going to get lots hatred but it's right.

I am a legion baby, joining in the legion prepatch and played dps and healers with golden logs at a mythic level raiding by the time TOV came out. So I have some experience but very recent none of this 10yrs+ stuff.

But here's the nugget 99% of the player base have missed with BFA. When I started the game it was completely and utterly overwhelming both in size and complexity, even the basics of clicking spells to key binds to macros to customer elvui setups, add-ons, weak auras, siming pieces of gear, buying a Razer Naga. The list just goes on and on and on.

On top of that you have rotations to learn, boss fights, the nuances of PVE class balance, gear sets and talent selections this game is very, very complicated to a new player.

You can't keep building on top of this foundation of conplexity each patch and expansion because as the player base shrinks new players can't learn at the near vertical learning cure the game has.

They don't stick around and stop playing, at some point the spidersweb of complexity needs to be pruned hard so a new player has the ability to pick the game up comfortably and not have an anurism before uninstalling.

That is why the game has to be pruned to bring new players on board so we still have a game to play in a year's time. Or it can be made more complex and slowly die with a ever shrinking player base because no-one what's to learn a game this hard

[Schmilblick]

I'm sorry but no, BFA class design is the worst I've seen since....forever, it's gonna be the lowest quality change / feature in BFA and Azerite with not fix it since it's passive rng spells, we are going to play League Of Warcraft for a long time, I just hope that they fix some classes in 8.1.

[shaunika123]

I sincerely hope this is sarcasm

especially since you're literally contradicting yourself

[Stardrift]

I'm sorry but no, BFA class design is the worst I've seen since....forever, it's gonna be the lowest quality change / feature in BFA and Azerite with not fix it since it's passive rng spells, we are going to play League Of Warcraft for a long time, I just hope that they fix some classes in 8.1.

It's far from being as bad as what Cata did. Cata ruined so many specs for me it's not even funny.

[Primemrip]

When you say goldenlogs do you mean rank 1's cause I'd argue that's not gold coloured.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd also argue that the Azerite system is more complex than tier will ever be.

[Deleted]

A philosopher once said that our repressed prayers explode in sarcasms.

[Deleted]

no. just no.
once a company starts deviating from their community, to satisfy those who doesnt even play. Thats when the core players will abandon ship, and that truly is the downfall of a game.

either way, how can u believe this when years of previous expansions have done just fine, while being just as, if not more complicated. u got 10+ years of gaming history going against this argument of yours.

[chakley]

so a new player has the ability to pick the game up comfortably and not have an anurism before uninstalling.

I don't think a new player should be expecting to get right into mythic level raiding, nor should blizz be designing for it. This game shouldn't turn into d3 simplicity of combat.

[Theprophecy2186]

I'm sorry but no, BFA class design is the worst I've seen since....forever

People keep saying this.. I don't think it means what you think it means. Especially when streamers and knowledgeable beta testers keep saying the classes are, for the most part, very fun and Bliz has done a good job. There are a few that need work still, but if you can launch an expac with 30/36 specs in at least a solid state, I consider that a win.

I'd really be interested in hearing specific examples of specific specs/classes that you find "horrible" design and not just numbers that need adjustment. Instead all I ever hear is "Durr.. horrible class design, Bliz are so bad"...

[Smallfruitbat]

You can't keep building on top of this foundation of conplexity each patch and expansion because as the player base shrinks new players can't learn at the near vertical learning cure the game has.

They don't stick around and stop playing, at some point the spidersweb of complexity needs to be pruned hard so a new player has the ability to pick the game up comfortably and not have an anurism before uninstalling.

That's what the first 109 (119) levels are for... figuring out what to do with your buttons. That and the boosted character tutorial

[jellmoo]

For new players, the problem isn't the number of abilities. It's really not. The tooltips are accurate enough to illustrate what they do, and the leveling process is simple enough that you learn the basics of when to press what.

The game has historically struggled to introduce new players to different content types. Things like Dungeons, Raids, Battlegrounds and Arenas. The learning curve is steepest when you move from leveling, where there is little challenge and low risk, to these where you have to depend on understanding playstyle and working with others. This is especially true if you are playing as a healer or tank, where leveling does very little to teach you how to play these roles.

Pruning is sometimes needed, and has been in the past. But it shouldn't come at the expense of fun. Every class should be able to do cool things, and the graphics and animations should be equally impressive. Taking abilities away doesn't reduce complexity so much as it takes away options. Firing a massive bolt of power that looks great and does damage is fun. Clicking a button that gives party members a buff for an hour isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see abilities in line with a game like SWToR, where you have slightly different variations of the same ability as part of your rotation. But I also hate to see fun and interesting abilities being removed, or changed from baseline to talents where they compete with other high priority items.

[Diggsworth]

I wholeheartedly agree with you!
As a player who also first started playing in legion, this game was vastly more complicated than my previous hardcore MMO, Club Penguin.
When I started playing, I was so overwhelmed by the 6 to 8 buttons I needed to press whenever they lit up that I had a severe mental breakdown, and needed to be hospitalized.
Thanks to the BFA design doubling down on pruning, making a huge (relatively) portion of my damage auto attacks, and just making the game slower overall, I can finally play without suffering any trauma.
And before you say "oh that's not true", or "stop being sarcastic troll", who are you to question my lived experience?
BFA design is hands down the best class design WoW has ever seen. Period.

[Swalload]

So this is going to get lots hatred but it's right.

I am a legion baby, joining in the legion prepatch and played dps and healers with golden logs at a mythic level raiding by the time TOV came out. So I have some experience but very recent none of this 10yrs+ stuff.

But here's the nugget 99% of the player base have missed with BFA. When I started the game it was completely and utterly overwhelming both in size and complexity, even the basics of clicking spells to key binds to macros to customer elvui setups, add-ons, weak auras, siming pieces of gear, buying a Razer Naga. The list just goes on and on and on.

On top of that you have rotations to learn, boss fights, the nuances of PVE class balance, gear sets and talent selections this game is very, very complicated to a new player.

You can't keep building on top of this foundation of conplexity each patch and expansion because as the player base shrinks new players can't learn at the near vertical learning cure the game has.

They don't stick around and stop playing, at some point the spidersweb of complexity needs to be pruned hard so a new player has the ability to pick the game up comfortably and not have an anurism before uninstalling.

That is why the game has to be pruned to bring new players on board so we still have a game to play in a year's time. Or it can be made more complex and slowly die with a ever shrinking player base because no-one what's to learn a game this hard

This is a 14 years old game. It doesn't really get enough new players to justify designing around that. What they should do is make it more fun for the loyal player base who have been here for a while and have more chances of staying than there are chances of getting new players. If anything, the older players are the ones bringing their friends in and they will teach them the ropes. The game has been terrible at teaching players how to play since like forever, it's all done through the community, forums, etc. Anytime you run into someone who suck some major ass, just ask them if they ever go on community websites, 99% of the time they'll say they don't. They just manage what they can with what information the game gives, which is very microscopic and unhelpful. Just look at trade chat when something new comes out, there's a bunch of people asking questions that have been answered MONTHS if not years before on the internet.

I could understand this design philosophy if we were talking about a brand new MMO, but this is just an old game that doesn't really bring new players in that much, hard to justify making it more simple and bland for the very vast majority of their player base.

[Smallfruitbat]

People keep saying this.. I don't think it means what you think it means. Especially when streamers and knowledgeable beta testers keep saying the classes are, for the most part, very fun and Bliz has done a good job. There are a few that need work still, but if you can launch an expac with 30/36 specs in at least a solid state, I consider that a win.

I'd really be interested in hearing specific examples of specific specs/classes that you find "horrible" design and not just numbers that need adjustment. Instead all I ever hear is "Durr.. horrible class design, Bliz are so bad"...

The problem as I see it is that the Legion prepatch had a lot of heavy pruning to make way for artefacts etc. Then Legiondaries gave a lot to players in terms of customisation of their specs/play styles. Most of which has been dialled back. No one likes to have things taken away, more so when they are presented with the barebones of classes and told everything is done and Azerite armour will plug the gaps; then weeks later a whole host of changes pour out.

[Swizzington]

Taking abilities away doesn't reduce complexity so much as it takes away options. Firing a massive bolt of power that looks great and does damage is fun. Clicking a button that gives party members a buff for an hour isn't.

This might be a slight tangent but what, as a paladin, I found fun about the raid buffs in Wotlk was the fact it took a shit ton of reagents. Before raids and dungeons I would have to go to this little store in Dalaran and stock up on these candles or whatever it was. To me, that felt like I was really preparing to go on an adventure of some sort. I dunno, sounds kinda dumb typing it out, but I do think little annoying shit like that added to the immersion.

[Theprophecy2186]

The problem as I see it is that the Legion prepatch had a lot of heavy pruning to make way for artefacts etc. Then Legiondaries gave a lot to players in terms of customisation of their specs/play styles. Most of which has been dialled back. No one likes to have things taken away, more so when they are presented with the barebones of classes and told everything is done and Azerite armour will plug the gaps; then weeks later a whole host of changes pour out.

I understand this concern, and I will concede that blizzard doesn't seem to plan ahead too well when they do things like implement the Artifact and legendary system as they did in Legion and then find themselves in a position where they have to strip so much and start over. That said, I think the problem inherently lies within the player and not the designer. People who complain about this kind of stuff need to realize that power cannot increase linearly in a game like this indefinitely.. it just doesn't work like that. A reset is appropriate and necessary. When you reach max power/level in any game you have two options; you beat the end boss, complete the side missions, etc. and the game ends... or a reset occurs and power levels drop back down to a reasonable level so there's still a challenge ahead of you that you can overcome.

Just enjoy the expac for what it is, enjoy repowering and building your character and forget about the past. If you can't do that, then an MMO just doesn't seem to be the game type for you (not you... people in general).

[Dizson]

Ok so when will they fix Hunters? They are shit for 3 expansions now. ITS ONE OF THE SHITTIEST CLASS EVER.

[RoKPaNda]

I'm sorry but no, BFA class design is the worst I've seen since....forever, it's gonna be the lowest quality change / feature in BFA and Azerite with not fix it since it's passive rng spells, we are going to play League Of Warcraft for a long time, I just hope that they fix some classes in 8.1.

I understand that we're in the part of the game now where it's trendy to say things like "Oh the last expansion was good, the current expansion is bad, the next expansion is shit." but saying that the class design is the worst you've ever seen is just disingenuous. In most cases class design is perfectly fine and almost identical to Legion. Yeah we're losing our artifact ability, and some of the things built into the artifact, and we're losing legendaries, but for most classes and specs that isn't going to result in a huge playstyle difference.

In some cases they definitely have more work to do. Shadow went from feeling amazing to feeling like complete shit without the belt and sephuz. That's awful but that's still not any different from any other expansion where some specs have been released in absolute shit condition, for example Frost DK at the start of Legion. People are acting like an expansion has never been released before with broken specs but yeahhhh there have been some expansions that released with some horrendously broken specs and BfA looks like it's going to be pretty standard in that regard. Would I love an expansion that released with every class and spec being viable? Yep ... but I'm not going to pretend that not being the case is anything new in BfA.

[capri sunset]

I understand that we're in the part of the game now where it's trendy to say things like "Oh the last expansion was good, the current expansion is bad, the next expansion is shit." but saying that the class design is the worst you've ever seen is just disingenuous. In most cases class design is perfectly fine and almost identical to Legion. Yeah we're losing our artifact ability, and some of the things built into the artifact, and we're losing legendaries, but for most classes and specs that isn't going to result in a huge playstyle difference.

This is a really self defeating argument - most specs are losing things, you're right for the most part it's not massive but we've now been gradually losing things for a long time and it's becoming apparent how little is left. The ideology going into legion was that on a new expansion without artifacts they could have a reset and add new things in its place right? Except that hasn't happened, 3 azerite traits don't come close even if by luck your best traits are ones that affect gameplay.

Now I will say I'm very focused on the healers, who have a lot of traits that matter and flexibility with legendaries that a number of dps specs aren't afforded, if I'm playing legion without them then so much gameplay is gone and that is concerning to me. I realise many people care a lot more about say the mechanics of a fight than what they're playing but I'm not a fan of these broad and dismissive attitudes that it doesn't matter.

[Super Kami Dende]

I'm sorry but no, BFA class design is the worst I've seen since....forever

Come on, Vanilla wasn't that long ago.