"The team is excited about the improvements to the gearing system"

[Deleted]

With ML: some group of people decides will you get loot or not. If you get it - you can't openly trade it, your LC will not let you. You don't have control over it, you don't have any choice.

With PL: you will get loot by RNG, same chances as everybody else, nobody decides for you. You may trade it in most cases. Or you may keep it, it is your choice.


Ah you one of those...

Time to actually try to explain anything to your small toxic minority is over.
Enjoy BfA with PL. Of don't enjoy, who cares.

Yeah, write me of as toxic when my standpoint is "the raid goes first" and not your "i come first". You sir, are completely lost in your selfishness and that is disturbing. You still completely failed to name one simple reason why we are in control of our gear now when we have 0 control in fact. Everything is RNG and nothing is controled. And you have yet to prove me wrong when i state you are selfish because you are only looking at your own benefits and not at the disadvantages of your raid.

"serious raid environment"

Made my day.

I bet it did since you never saw anything past rank 10k?

Oh yeah I'm sure the raid as a whole is going to "suffer" because a handful of officers don't get to micromanage who gets a slight upgrade. Why you let your guild abuse you by telling you that you don't deserve as much loot as Jim the Priest because Jim the Priest sucks up more, or because of some gearing strat they came up with, is beyond me. I get my fair share of loot in my guild, and I feel bad for a lot of our other members, and this has been the case in past guilds for me, because they don't get enough loot and get treated like second class citizens.

If you're not going for world first there is zero reason for it.

It seems like you are extremely unlucky with all of your raidguilds up until now then and i am sorry for that. I have had no issues at all with PM so far and i am playing leather dps, probably the most used armor in all raids and even though i had some toxic af guilds i never cried after loot and always gratulated someone who got a strong item. But that is just my view of "if i don't get it someone else will, raid dps goes up anyway". Our current raid is a very stable one so i can be 99% sure the item will stay in our raid and will help us progress, so idc if i get it or not but it seems that the only argument people like you bring up is "I" and nothing else. "I got striped of my item with ML, I am not favored at my loot council, I want to be the very best". I have yet to see a valid and non selfish reason for why getting rid of PM is fine.

[kamuimac]

Oh yeah I'm sure the raid as a whole is going to "suffer" because a handful of officers don't get to micromanage who gets a slight upgrade. Why you let your guild abuse you by telling you that you don't deserve as much loot as Jim the Priest because Jim the Priest sucks up more, or because of some gearing strat they came up with, is beyond me. I get my fair share of loot in my guild, and I feel bad for a lot of our other members, and this has been the case in past guilds for me, because they don't get enough loot and get treated like second class citizens.

If you're not going for world first there is zero reason for it.



Yeah but does everyone in your raid feel that they never get fucked over? Doubtful. In all my years playing this game since Vanilla I've never seen a loot council or loot system without some kind of favoritism.

The words you are looking for is "Stockholm syndrom". Those people were simply abused for so long that they dont imagine how to Play without abuse or they joined abuse system themselves

[Deleted]

Or perhaps you were so hard abused all the time and now you can't see that people have guilds were abuse is not an issue? But yeah, use a mental illnes flame, that makes you look smart

[Sylvaeres]

All you people do i bitch lol my God.

Thank you. I wonder when they'll realize nobody gives a fuck about their opinions

[Dizson]

Thank you. I wonder when they'll realize nobody gives a fuck about their opinions

That's not true at all and something that only people who tugs their head in the sand would say. The whole reason forums exists is because people care about each others opinion.

On topic:
It's a bad design that allows repetetative content that also timegates you so you spend more time subbed than actually playing the game itself, creating the illusion that the game has merit and content, when it actually has nothing. The minor +stats the gear gives is also pretty stupid makes grinding really unrewarding and the gameplay unfun. I'd honestly rather have the old TBC gearing system back than this one, even Legions artifacts were better, at least the grind give you good stats and different gameplays in some cases.

[Sylvaeres]

That's not true at all and something that only people who tugs their head in the sand would say. The whole reason forums exists is because people care about each others opinion.

On topic:
It's a bad design that allows repetetative content that also timegates you so you spend more time subbed than actually playing the game itself. The minor +stats the gear gives is also pretty stupid makes grinding really unrewarding and the gameplay unfun. I'd honestly rather have the old TBC gearing system back than this one, even Legions artifacts were better, at least the grind give you good stats and different gameplays in some cases.

No. That's the thing. Their nonsensical bitching, which never ends, is irrelevant and you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise your opinion on a dead horse subject does not matter.

[Dizson]

No. That's the thing. Their nonsensical bitching, which never ends, is irrelevant and you're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise your opinion on a dead horse subject does not matter.

Well you are still here aren't you, we are discussing problems and what should be done, the bitching happens because obviously there is something wrong with the game that we all love. I can tell you that Blizzard is not satisfied with unsatisfied customers either.

[Deleted]

Well you are still here aren't you, we are discussing problems and what should be done, the bitching happens because obviously there is something wrong with the game that we all love. I can tell you that Blizzard is not satisfied with unsatisfied customers either.

He is satisfied though since he obviously eats everything thrown at him without second thought. I mean he says himself no opinion matters, so he must think that of himself as well. Sad.

[willemh]

Oh yeah I'm sure the raid as a whole is going to "suffer" because a handful of officers don't get to micromanage who gets a slight upgrade. Why you let your guild abuse you by telling you that you don't deserve as much loot as Jim the Priest because Jim the Priest sucks up more, or because of some gearing strat they came up with, is beyond me. I get my fair share of loot in my guild, and I feel bad for a lot of our other members, and this has been the case in past guilds for me, because they don't get enough loot and get treated like second class citizens.

If you're not going for world first there is zero reason for it.



Yeah but does everyone in your raid feel that they never get fucked over? Doubtful. In all my years playing this game since Vanilla I've never seen a loot council or loot system without some kind of favoritism.

There's a reason why senior employees get paid more in a company, they add more to the company. If 1 hunter has been loyal to the guild for years, and constantly performs 30% better then this new recruit that hasn't proven himself in any way they shouldn't get equal pay, because if they do there is 0 incentive for them to actually try to work really hard, to be loyal and to try to make their guild a better place. This is the exact reason why communism didnt work. I wonder how happy you all would be when your salary suddenly gets lowered and this junior who just joined the company gets the same pay as you.

[BetrayedOf52]

Sometimes you have to ignore the masses to make something that works.

[Dizson]

Sometimes you have to ignore the masses to make something that works.

Ok. Let's just wait til 8.1.

[TOM_RUS]

Improvements they say? I don't see any...

[Mixxy]

Jesus the amount of people who don't seem to realise they're allowed to leave a guild if they don't like the way loot is handled.

Blows my goddamn mind.


Here's the rub, kiddos. In Legion, there were guilds that use Personal Loot, and guilds that use Master Loot. You could find one that suited your wants. You had a choice.
In BFA, ALL guilds are forced to use Personal Loot. You can't find one that handles loot in the way you're most comfortable. Each and every single person is forced to adhere to the exact same methods of looting and gearing. That is the opposite of choice.


In BFA, thanks to Azerite gear, we're gonna be picking up more untradeable pieces than ever (Legendaries don't count because they were push-personal. They're closer to mounts than Azerite or Tier pieces)... and we're forced to use a loot system that gives us zero control over who gets those untradeable pieces.

Hell, the main selling point of Azerite gear was that it was an alternative to Tier sets that were far less restrictive. A combination of forced-Personal-Loot and Azerite gear being BOP regardless of ilvl means that Azerite has suddenly become far far more restrictive than Tier pieces.

So... why? What possible advantage could untradeable Azerite pieces serve the player?

[kamuimac]

There's a reason why senior employees get paid more in a company, they add more to the company. If 1 hunter has been loyal to the guild for years, and constantly performs 30% better then this new recruit that hasn't proven himself in any way they shouldn't get equal pay, because if they do there is 0 incentive for them to actually try to work really hard, to be loyal and to try to make their guild a better place. This is the exact reason why communism didnt work. I wonder how happy you all would be when your salary suddenly gets lowered and this junior who just joined the company gets the same pay as you.

if anyone at any point start comparing computer game to work its a clear sign how toxic is the enviroment he is playing in and that that person should fast seek help .

its just a game and should be treated as such - if pixels have really that high influence on someone's life and enjoyment from game he should look for help .

- - - Updated - - -

Sometimes you have to ignore the masses to make something that works.

dont call 10 youtubers who live of controversy and like 200 posters on this forums "masses"

its insignificant whining thats what it is

[Deleted]

I think they're talking more about the azerite armor system rather than the changes to master loot when they talk about 'gearing system'.

[SirCowdog]

if anyone at any point start comparing computer game to work its a clear sign how toxic is the enviroment he is playing in and that that person should fast seek help .

its just a game and should be treated as such - if pixels have really that high influence on someone's life and enjoyment from game he should look for help .

Professional sports are also games. Good luck walking off the street and getting the same pay as one of those guys.

The simple truth is that there are people who play this game at a higher level than most. They do take it more seriously. And the fact that you refer to that level of play with such negative connotation just shows how invalid your criticism of it is(as well as implying a lack of first hand experience or understanding of what actually goes on at that level).

[kamuimac]

How in the fuck can you say this is a pro-choice change? Do you know what choice even means?

On live, you have choice in if you want to join a PL or ML guild. Prior to Legion, you could do literally anything you wanted in any kind of group, pug or otherwise. Don't like ML pugs/guilds? Don't join them; join GL/PL groups instead. Now in BfA, PL is being forced on literally everyone, in every form of content, whether you like it or not. This is a huge, HUGE anti-choice change.

All this is going to result in is abuse. Higher-end guilds will continue to use a pseudo-loot council for trade-able items and it's going to start abuse with raiders not looting so they get stuff mailed to them for example. If anything, this turns every player into a Master Looter even if your guild agrees they don't like or want this system. To say this is "bringing back choice" is to say you have better rights in a dictatorship.

PS: This isn't an anti-PL post, this is a pro-choice post. I like having my options, and I don't like them being removed.

how can you say its not ? the choice now belongs 100% to player not so some nolifer living in his parents basement who in past was removing all this choice from players by being ML.

the only ones angry about this change are people who abused others for years and now feel lost without this power anymore.

[Nayami]

How in the fuck can you say this is a pro-choice change? Do you know what choice even means?

On live, you have choice in if you want to join a PL or ML guild. Prior to Legion, you could do literally anything you wanted in any kind of group, pug or otherwise. Don't like ML pugs/guilds? Don't join them; join GL/PL groups instead. Now in BfA, PL is being forced on literally everyone, in every form of content, whether you like it or not. This is a huge, HUGE anti-choice change.

All this is going to result in is abuse. Higher-end guilds will continue to use a pseudo-loot council for trade-able items and it's going to start abuse with raiders not looting so they get stuff mailed to them for example. If anything, this turns every player into a Master Looter even if your guild agrees they don't like or want this system. To say this is "bringing back choice" is to say you have better rights in a dictatorship.

PS: This isn't an anti-PL post, this is a pro-choice post. I like having my options, and I don't like them being removed.

I also like having options, but sometimes it's good to take the choice away too. Before Legion, most pug raids where ML and with loot being reserved / ninja'd and it happened frequently. It wasn't simply "Don't like ML? Don't join", since most were ML and you didn't have much options, not to mention the groups that would change the looting method mid-run, more than once. Personally I had a much, much, much better experience with pugs in Legion thanks to this (and Discord.. ).

Note that I don't personally agree with forced PL for non-pugs, but allowing a Master Looter in pugs was just silly imo. For an organized group of players it is obvious that having the ML option available makes sense due to allowing a single person to distribute loot among the raid however the guild sees fit. This allows for guilds to decide which part of their raid they should strengten first, be it gearing the healers because the raid is taking too much damage or the dps because of an enrage timer. It also allows for pieces of gear to be given to classes/specs that greatly benefit from it, so you would give gear with Crit to classes that greatly benefit from that stat, not just give it to someone because it's slightly higher iLvl.

[Verdugo]

how can you say its not ? the choice now belongs 100% to player

No, choice 100% belongs to some computer algorithm now.

[Polarthief]

Improvements they say? I don't see any...

This is what kills me TBH. How do they say anything is improved? If anything, it's gotten worse since you now need 4 tier slots filled by non-guaranteed items (whereas you had guaranteed tier drops before), possibly a second weapon slot (first weapon slot replaced by necklace instead), and 2 reserved legendary slots for just whatever the item used to be? This results in a +6-7* item difference that no longer is guaranteed or reserved and what were the steps taken to make it easier? You can't do any loot system besides PL.

* Relics were dumb and stupid though I guess I should still include them. That still leaves you with a +3-4 item difference.

I'm not complaining about forced PL (even though I personally hate it but whatever), I just wish they wouldn't outright lie. There has not been a single improvement and for them to claim otherwise is a mockery. The loot system is the exact same from legion except you can't do any other loot style now. How is removing choice and doing nothing else an improvement???

- - - Updated - - -

how can you say its not ? the choice now belongs 100% to player

What choice was I given? Where are my options? I either play with PL and pray I get what I've needed forever or... I don't play the game.

Please tell me what new choice I was given? You seem to have no clue what the word "choice" means. Choices are REDUCED in BfA.

the only ones angry about this change are people who abused others for years and now feel lost without this power anymore.

Yup, the ONLY ones. Not the people who get FUCKED daily by Personal Loot, not the people who like having group decisions on their loot, no, ONLY the ones who were abusing the system.

Please fuck right on out of here. Your opinion on organized group play is not valid at all if you're going to make sweeping stereotypical labeling on "literally everyone" who dislikes PL. Know what I say to people like you? Join a guild that used GL or PL. Don't join ones that used ML. Simple as that. Oh guess what? You don't have that CHOICE anymore because they removed that.

I will say right now that I would gladly give up ML if:
- PL was improved. Maybe I could blacklist items or pick specific dungeons for my M+ chest or something. Instead, not a single fucking improvement has been made to say we now have more choice.
- PL was made so you could trade items even if they are an "upgrade" so you have some level of decision-making for your friends/guidies, or if you wanted to be nice and give someone something that you barely need that they really, really need.
- PL wasn't so fucking RNG that you wanted to kill yourself every time you got a duplicate or other garbage item you didn't want from a boss that drops your super-amazing BiS item(s) (LOOKING AT YOU, WITHERED JIM).

- - - Updated - - -

No, choice 100% belongs to some computer algorithm now.

Exactly. It's not even about removing other loot styles, it's that they didn't do anything to IMPROVE on PL. That said, removing other loot styles is still an anti-choice move, unless they actually put some effort into making it better and somehow gives me choice. Maybe let me pick items to blacklist from bosses or something, that'd be cool.

- - - Updated - - -

I also like having options, but sometimes it's good to take the choice away too. Before Legion, most pug raids where ML and with loot being reserved / ninja'd and it happened frequently. It wasn't simply "Don't like ML? Don't join", since most were ML and you didn't have much options, not to mention the groups that would change the looting method mid-run, more than once. Personally I had a much, much, much better experience with pugs in Legion thanks to this (and Discord.. ).

Note that I don't personally agree with forced PL for non-pugs, but allowing a Master Looter in pugs was just silly imo. For an organized group of players it is obvious that having the ML option available makes sense due to allowing a single person to distribute loot among the raid however the guild sees fit. This allows for guilds to decide which part of their raid they should strengten first, be it gearing the healers because the raid is taking too much damage or the dps because of an enrage timer. It also allows for pieces of gear to be given to classes/specs that greatly benefit from it, so you would give gear with Crit to classes that greatly benefit from that stat, not just give it to someone because it's slightly higher iLvl.

Which is fine and I even agree that removing ML from pugs was a good move, but it's still an anti-choice move (though, again, one I'm in favor of). Removing choices from organized teams however is still a bad move unless they actually did a single fucking thing to make it better than raw RNG. Let the system know I DON'T want a 30th duplicate of an item I've already have and would much more prefer items I've never received. Let me trade items that are a +5/10 upg for me but a +60 for another player. This system of forced Personal is so anti-grouping that it makes me wonder if they even give a fuck about organized groups. Imagine any RPG EVER, literally ever. Imagine that because your Fighter/Warrior/etc looted this god tier staff that he could equip, it's now stuck to him. He has no way of giving it to the Wizard/Black Mage/etc just because (also inb4 "it's cursed!": it's not a cursed item).

This just blows my mind to force a solo/selfish-centered loot system as the ONLY ONE in the entire game when you have countless different types of players of varying degrees of skill and playstyles. Not only do you make no improvements to the extremely flawed solo-centric loot system (in an MMO mind you, where you're INTENDED to group up), but then you claim that you've given more choice (instead of less which is the reality) to the players? Like, I want to be proven wrong here, but not a single person in the universe is capable of doing so with facts because you'd either be lying or so delusional that you should be put in an insane asylum.