Should people who suck influence game design?

[Charge me Doctor]

You cannot grasp the simple concept that "challenge = fun" is a very minority position (if by "challenge" you mean what is challenging for, say, the top 10% of players.)

By your inane position MMO makers should be happy with 1/10th the revenue they could get if they catered to the actual bulk of their potential customer population. If the MMO market were sufficiently fragmented it would make sense for some developers to go after the small hardcore niche, but it's insane to think Blizzard should move or should have moved WoW in that direction.

Challenge = fun is the core concept of games. Developer gives you problems and limited tools to solve them.

Take for example a simple problem of going from point A to point B:
1) You can run on foot and fight through various mobs you meet (risky, engaging)
2) You can run on foot on the road and meet no one (safe, boring)
3) You can run on mount through various mobs and occasionally get knocked down and forced to fight (risky, engaging)
4) You can run on mount on the road and meet no one (safe, boring)
5) You can fly on mount and meet no one (safe, boring)

See a pattern here? (not trying to turn this thread into flying debate, but it's the most obvious example).
When you have a tool that allows you to skip problems that developer put in front of you - it becomes less fun, especially when it takes less time to ignore problems, than to actually deal with them (in case of doing stuff on foot you have a choice of going on the road (long path) or going straight (short path with occasional fights)) .
Then you have to account boredom factor - when you overgear content (or do it for 100th time) you simply don't feel engaged by the same old problem developer put in front of you - you solved it numerous times and it doesn't pose any interest to you, off course in this case the "short and easy" path is going to be more favorable for player, because they can skip boring problems and go to fun ones (or, which is often the case - skip straight to reward).

Blizzard should (and they do) cater to all their community, but they can't please everyone, they have to find common ground, and more often than not - they do find it. With literally any change there will be people who are angry with it (regardless of how irrelevant it is), remember outrage over selfie camera patch? It has literally zero impact on the game, yet people were raging over it.

Blizzard also have to keep clear borders to how hardcore hardcore players can go, there is obvious difference between a player who plays 6 hours a week a player who plays 60 hours a week, and blizzard have to make sure, that they don't get too far ahead, splitting community too much, stop this unreasonable "3k GS sart +0" meme raids and stop hardcore requirements from slipping into "casual" community in general ("benched for wrong legos", "benched for playing survival" vs "benched for shitty performance in raid")

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Well...no because It doesn't change their gameplay. Lfr I can get being annoyed with due to how powerful the rewards are for guilds that don't split run but higher content doesn't touch on their experience...at all.

You can put LFR and powerful rewards in the same sentence since the throne of thunder.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I see it a lot on the forums and even here as well a lot of what is called "bad design" tends to rather be a issue of players being unable to play the game at the skill required to overcome said content.

I know it isn't every issue but when it comes to things like mage tower or gear swapping at high mythic pluses... a lot of people want to weigh in who either have no experience or lack the ability/time to play at that level.Worse there seems to be almost a spite towards players who do with people taking almost a gleeful approach for advocating changes to a part of the game they themselves choose not to experience.

It might be better if perhaps lfr jimmy's opinions on group content are not weighed very heavily despite their numbers. Any changes made won't actually effect his gaming experience.

Do they "suck" at paying for game time?

[Charge me Doctor]

It doesn't change their gameplay, but it arguably does degrade their game experience. The existence of more difficult content that they cannot do, and a population of derisive players who do play that content, sends them the message that they suck. This may be a true message, but it degrades their enjoyment of the game nonetheless.

There is no content in the game you can't do by throwing bunch of "time" and "effort" at it. If you don't have "time" and/or "effort" - then you can't complete this content and need to get more "time" and/or "effort". How not having the right resources to complete stuff "degrades game experience" is beyond me, there is plenty of content to do, if you want to get into content you can't do - you have to dedicate more resources. I mean, if you really want to get into heroic raiding you can start from doing one boss and see if your guild can sustain expanded schedule, or find players who can, or, if the problem is you, spend more time playing instead of doing other stuff. It's basic time management shit.

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I just don't agree with the idea of destroying a game to appease the envy of others and for the most part that is exactly what happens. Take lfd once they opened the flood gates and made it a never wipe mode everyone stopped wanting to run it. Dungeon gear was seen as a baseline grind and eventually need to be prompted up with currency

If you made a game completely focused on people who suck the game would go under.

Dungeon gear has more issues than being easy to get. Itemization in general have changed, there is no more BiS items (except pre-raid patches) in dungeons, there is no real reason to run them. Even in classic you stopped doing dungeons after you've got to AQ gear, there is simply no point in it. Barely anyone wants to run same dungeons in 100th time, granted how fast you could grind dungeons with LFD - it became a problem. But i remember even in TBC i was so sick and tired of running Mechanar for badges that i could fall asleep mid dungeon while spamming fireball and /follow macro on a teammate.

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I only dont agree when "bad players" change the game for EVERYONE.

Gladly in WoW that is very rare and mostly when there is content designed for bad players it is OPTIONAL.

Now...things i think bad players changed the game for everyone:
-Class Design: Pruning...Ability Pruning and in some cases make the class/spec brain dead easy to accomodate bad players and leave less room to "mess up"
-Low level Dungeons: Are brain dead easy. Not a challenge at all. You can just ignore mechanincs most of the time.
-Forced Personal loot: I actually agree with this...because i am a casual but a lot of people are mad

And from the top of my head those are the only things "bad players" changed for everyone.
And i dont agree with them (less personal loot)

It's not "bad players" who change the game, it's blizzard. They get feedback from everyone, and make decisions based on it and their internal stats / opinions.
Apparently, its either feedback from "bad players" makes sense and blizzard makes changes based on it, or their internal stats show that they need to implement changes, that for some reason align with "bad players" feedback.

Again, it's not "bad players" who change the game for everyone, it's blizzard.
I don't remember huge outrage over ability bloat, in fact, it's blizzard themselves who got the term "ability bloat" up and running. Most of "pruned" abilities needed to go anyways for balance reasons or to bring skill ceiling level down (aka, "a good rogue will always outdamage a good shaman granted equal gear")

Yes, because at low level you lack generic stuff like interrupt, CC, or half of your rotational abilities or utilities to even tackle something harder. Simply boosting damage and HP of mobs and bosses in low level dungeons will simply make them classic-wow-level-hard, when you yawned thorough the dungeon and drink after two packs of mobs and AA with a staff as a druid to add at least SOME dps

Forced personal loot is needed to make gear acquisition more predictable, and by extension make raid balancing easier, blizzard now can stop addressing top100 guilds and their splitrunning, account sharing and other shit they do to get best characters into the raid as soon as possible, and stop making impossible-to-beat-for-general-mythic-guild-bosses-until-a-flat-20%-nerf-two-weeks-after-release.

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Right but effectively there are two camps. Progress groups and lfr. Yes there are splinter upon splinters like pet battlers but end game it's pretty set.

Even pvp is divided into ranked and unranked.

So a player who logs in weekly to do a 15+ mythic key, and a player who logs in weekly to do a heroic raid, and a player who logs in weekly to do couple of BGs lie in which camp of yours..?

[Snuffleupagus]

So a player who logs in weekly to do a 15+ mythic key, and a player who logs in weekly to do a heroic raid, and a player who logs in weekly to do couple of BGs lie in which camp of yours..?

Even I can answer that.

+15 Mythic = Progress Group

Heroic Raid = Progress Group

Unranked BG = LFR aka Casual Group

[Charge me Doctor]

The gap I see comes from performance I've seen people not bother to learn rotations , enchants,gems,and etc for expansion upon expansion. I dont really use terms like hardcore and casual since it denotes play time not skill (most awful players tend to be hardcore).

That's interesting, is this an experience you've got from pug or random players? I can swear that if you see me on my mage and if you see me on my hunter you'll make two polar opposite conclusions, because my hunter doesn't even have second legendary, have missing gem slots, only one gear enchant and i'm definitely not playing it 100% correctly. Also its surv. How can you make assumptions about a player like this based on a character you've seen once?

[Narzok]

That's interesting, is this an experience you've got from pug or random players? I can swear that if you see me on my mage and if you see me on my hunter you'll make two polar opposite conclusions, because my hunter doesn't even have second legendary, have missing gem slots, only one gear enchant and i'm definitely not playing it 100% correctly. Also its surv. How can you make assumptions about a player like this based on a character you've seen once?

going by MMO-C logic that would mean you are a filthy casual and suck, thus should not give feedback.
a real "good" player could master all classes within a few minutes, since there is nothing difficult in WoW and all speccs are "boring and easy as f**k".

jokes aside, i agree with you, blizz makes the changes. if they do something it is done after going through multiple "should we do this" meetings.
not all those decisions make sense to players, but blizz has no obligation to explain the reasons for why they change stuff.

as much as people hate the arguement, the last truth still stands: don't like it? don't do it.
if blizz changed WoW in a way that you don't have fun playing it, that's on you.

my favorite meal is no longer served in a restaurant, better force them to serve it again.

[barrsftw]

Yes if they are the only ones running the content. It seems common sense to me to have it that way. You wouldn't ask a mythic raider how to design pvp unless they happened to play high ranked as well. Why would you ask someone else other then a pvper?

Because Blizzard wants to know why these players aren't interesting in PvP, and what they can do to make them interested. It makes total sense to to ask players who aren't doing XYZ: "Why aren't you doing XYZ?" "What changes would make you want to do XYZ?".... it's just common sense.

They also ask players who are participating: "What makes you enjoy XYZ?" "How could we improve XYZ?".

If players who weren't doing high end content didn't influence Blizzard's decisions you probably wouldn't be a mythic raider right now. Because if they didn't listen, there would still only be like 10 guilds in the world that were clearing the hardest content. It's no different today. Blizzard wants the majority of their playerbase to be happy.

[Alkizon]

Narzok
my favorite meal is no longer served in a restaurant, better force them to serve it again.

Or maybe you were the only restaurant that provided this product. Or maybe this is the only thing that I can eat, and if you make such decision, you doom me to starvation. This analogy has a lot of holes, I don't like when people resort to this. In the end, we can't force anyone, but we very much have right to write something offensive in book of opinions and suggestions.

barrsftw
Because if they didn't listen, there would still only be like 10 guilds in the world that were clearing the hardest content. It's no different today. Blizzard wants the majority of their playerbase to be happy.

And where're exactly these 10 guilds now? In retirement due to the fact that Blizzard did unwanted changes? By asserting this you are downplay their value for the game just like those before you. This isn't right.

May be this, or this also should be changed? (examples are old, but I was hoping thereby to achieve more understanding/recognition/knowing).

I repeat, opinion is a non-permanent and relative thing, there is nothing wrong with any opinions, but... Rules and laws (basics of your game design: you change it - you get another game, other clients, another attitude towards yourself, you make someone unhappy; maybe it's worth to stop right away on creating another game?) should always be higher than opinions when making a decision, then you don't have to justify it for someone. By adhering to this you will preserve game and customer base integrity. Moreover, they will be much more confident and kinder (psychological climate) because they won't be afraid that someone else will come tomorrow, then ask to change something and company will find it expedient (more profitable = money are worth of loss reputation, trust, fairness and people together). And all responsibility for this lies solely on devs. They must be guardians, not intruders.

Devs' main task is to provide content, while progress system (fundamentals) as a whole must remain constant throughout entire game cycle. Territory organization/technical and logical connections, items/mobs/NPCs design/interdependence/lore/mechanics, quests and dialogues, and so on.

Kaver
What expansion features like this did we have in BC, Wrath, Cata and MOP? None. And those were much better expansions than BFA. Shadowlands doesn't need "expansion features" in terms of borrowed power systems. We just need good fun solid content. That's it. Make Classes fun to play. Make good dungeons. Make good raids. Make good open world content. Make good solo content. That's all we need. We don't need borrowed power systems.

Orwell7
Give us more dungeons, more raids -> more bosses, and don't EVER spend development time on features that only sound good, but plays awful.

This is quite enough with normal initial/basic gameplay organization, especially if you add to this organized PvP component. Mechanics-toolkit is exactly what player pays for, what should be get by person almost immediately, but content isn't, fee includes only opportunity to receive it, content is payment for correct implementation/understanding/application/adherence to mechanics. New classes/races that are harmonically inscribed in engine can also become some form of temporary content... but not "swing" gameplay every time so that people get confused about game's genre, to dark side it leads.

ps. Do you know why so-called Blizzard fans' behavior is very offensive sometimes? Is it because they also aren't trust devs, understanding that they can just same way change/return everything back? Is it because these devs have already done so in the past (neglected rules, betrayed their old customers), which means that this can happen with current ones?

There's a world behind the world, Professor Robinson. Lie once, cheat twice and everything becomes clear. Do not mistake my deception for a character flaw. It is philosophical choice, a profound understanding of the universe. It is a way of life. (c)

[Charge me Doctor]

Even I can answer that.

+15 Mythic = Progress Group

Heroic Raid = Progress Group

Unranked BG = LFR aka Casual Group

How is that a progress when all you do is a single key, or a farm raid once a week? It's the definition of casual play, you don't spend much time in game. Any in my example the most progressive player, in fact, is a unranked BG player, because he gets progressively better each time he participates in PvP, while others aren't, simply because of stagnant nature of their chosen activity.

[Zakgra]

Why would it matter in content they don't play? I get making lfr and lfd with that mindset. Even class design but not higher levels of play.

Because the time devs use creating content for only a small part of the players are time that could have otherwise been used doing content for "LFR Jimmy", who afterall is the main revenue generator for Blizzard.

It will always be like this - the intrest of the majority will stomp the intrest of the minority.

If "LFR Jimmy" not doing Mythic+ because he feels that the barrier for entry to that content is too high Blizzard will have to look at a way to solve this if it's an issue large enough for "LFR Jimmy" that it could possibly make subs decline.

I am not saying that all content should be available to all players and that there shouldn't be content designed around the needs and desires of players at a higher skill level than "LFR Jimmy", because there is a balance to be hold where there is something for everyone. What i am trying to say is that, ultimately, the voice of those who bring in the majority of the revenue to Blizzard can not be overheard.

[Nutrition]

How is that a progress when all you do is a single key, or a farm raid once a week? It's the definition of casual play, you don't spend much time in game. Any in my example the most progressive player, in fact, is a unranked BG player, because he gets progressively better each time he participates in PvP, while others aren't, simply because of stagnant nature of their chosen activity.

The first is clear progression... time in doesn't matter.

Unranked bgs dont teach you how to pvp beyond maybe 1v1 dueling.

[MonsieuRoberts]

They already do, they're called console players.

[Nutrition]

Do they "suck" at paying for game time?

If you look at sub numbers or at least the last reported it seems like they do.

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Because Blizzard wants to know why these players aren't interesting in PvP, and what they can do to make them interested. It makes total sense to to ask players who aren't doing XYZ: "Why aren't you doing XYZ?" "What changes would make you want to do XYZ?".... it's just common sense.

They also ask players who are participating: "What makes you enjoy XYZ?" "How could we improve XYZ?".

If players who weren't doing high end content didn't influence Blizzard's decisions you probably wouldn't be a mythic raider right now. Because if they didn't listen, there would still only be like 10 guilds in the world that were clearing the hardest content. It's no different today. Blizzard wants the majority of their playerbase to be happy.

That sounds like a terrible idea... how would that not just lead to a vicious cycle of making people who enjoy something leave over constant changes in the Hope's of appealing to people who are lukewarm about evening trying the content?

[Firefall]

Master Loot is fucking stupid and never should have existed in the first place. I can see no positive benefit to Master Loot at all, and no, it doesn't "get you gear" faster because personal loot accomplishes that just as quickly for your entire raid on a numerical level. You're all just elitists and loot ninjas complaining that you can't steal loot from trials or less popular guild members anymore, and coming up with whatever stupid, unrelated threads you can to cry about that. Quit the game if you want to quit, no one likes you or wants you in the playerbase because you are toxic to the health of the game and the enjoyment of everyone but yourself.

[Dch48]

Players of all skill levels should have influence. The most influence should be from the largest skill group.

[Flurryfang]

Players who suck at the game, are also players and most of them have potential to move into not sucking, so if you change the game in their direction, they might stop sucking.

And when it comes to feedback, everybody can have a valid opinion or bring up suggestions that make sense. I can promise, that when Blizzard makes a change to lets say mythic+, it is not based on players who have never even tried to play the content, but it might be based upon the feedback of players who have done it very little or only in a short period. Blizzard is not only looking for feedback from the players who are heavy users on content, but also players who for some reason are not, because improving something for that player might make them play after all.

It is undoubtily a hard thing to balance, as OP is somewhat right, that some players will simply not engage in some content, no matter how much Blizzard caters to them and change content for their sake. That said, just because i don't play Mythic+ or mythic raiding every week, does not mean i can't take a critical look at the content and give my opinionated feedback, based upon me as a person who does not find such content rewarding enough or fun enough to engage in. It is about finding the right group of playerbase that gives feedback both based upon their experience but also upon general critical viewing.
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[Energon]

Jimmy LFR, as you call him lol is who pays dem bills. So yes, he should influence game design in so far as he is in the majority.

Take something like gear swapping in Mythic, no it doesn't directly affect Jimmy but if that level of complexity and pre planning is required then players are running the dungeon in ways Blizzyvision did not foresee. Not only does it make designing future mythic dungeons more complex (you have to account for those who gear swap and those who don't), but it also puts an artificial barrier in place.

The more complex steps that exist (and are not mentioned anywhere in game, I'm sure the mythic dungeon journal doesn't mention that you must gear swap for example) means that Jimmy will never know he is meant to gear swap continually so will never try the content they created without first doing lots of research.

It's a game, research should not be necessary. Yes of course Icy-veins your heart out and min max away if that's what you enjoy but I guess they just want the content they created to be at least played a little by most of their player base. They want to keep you in game and playing as much as possible so the more content they can make you replay over and over then they are happy.

MMO's are a bit crazy when you think about it lol, You kill the exact same dungeon/raid boss over and over and over to get slightly better gear to kill a slightly tougher dungeon/raid boss over and over and over. And the cycle just repeats endlessly ha ha, but we do it. Well thankfully I don't really bother much now, im too old for that sillyness but I did when i was younger.

EDIT: and i agree with flurryfang in that changes to mythic+ or heroic raiding isn't for Jimmy LFR but for Timmy the Tryer. For the peeps who perhaps want to dabble in higher content but can't spend 18 hours per week on a game. Blizzy want to lower the pain threshold for Timmy to find out why he only did 3 mythic dungeons and then stopped doing them. They want to find out why he stopped.

[Alkizon]

Players who suck at the game, are also players and most of them have potential to move into not sucking, so if you change the game in their direction, they might stop sucking.

Or they can continue whine until game design changes to the point where they stop sucking, and complexity, envy, curiosity can provide desire to join "more enlightened society" and make them work on themselves. Bad, very narrow and limited argument. You know, some creatures are very arduous. So your third paragraph (wasn't quoted) in this sense is much more just. Still a matter of opinion, and, as I said, design rules goes above opinions.

[therealbowser]

People who play the game should influence game design. How skilled they are at the game is fairly irrelevant. That doesn't mean that skilled players shouldn't have content designed for them. Content for casual players and content for 'hardcore' players are not mutually exclusive, no matter how badly some posters like to pretend it is.

[Nutrition]

Jimmy LFR, as you call him lol is who pays dem bills. So yes, he should influence game design in so far as he is in the majority.

Take something like gear swapping in Mythic, no it doesn't directly affect Jimmy but if that level of complexity and pre planning is required then players are running the dungeon in ways Blizzyvision did not foresee. Not only does it make designing future mythic dungeons more complex (you have to account for those who gear swap and those who don't), but it also puts an artificial barrier in place.

The more complex steps that exist (and are not mentioned anywhere in game, I'm sure the mythic dungeon journal doesn't mention that you must gear swap for example) means that Jimmy will never know he is meant to gear swap continually so will never try the content they created without first doing lots of research.

It's a game, research should not be necessary. Yes of course Icy-veins your heart out and min max away if that's what you enjoy but I guess they just want the content they created to be at least played a little by most of their player base. They want to keep you in game and playing as much as possible so the more content they can make you replay over and over then they are happy.

MMO's are a bit crazy when you think about it lol, You kill the exact same dungeon/raid boss over and over and over to get slightly better gear to kill a slightly tougher dungeon/raid boss over and over and over. And the cycle just repeats endlessly ha ha, but we do it. Well thankfully I don't really bother much now, im too old for that sillyness but I did when i was younger.

EDIT: and i agree with flurryfang in that changes to mythic+ or heroic raiding isn't for Jimmy LFR but for Timmy the Tryer. For the peeps who perhaps want to dabble in higher content but can't spend 18 hours per week on a game. Blizzy want to lower the pain threshold for Timmy to find out why he only did 3 mythic dungeons and then stopped doing them. They want to find out why he stopped.

This makes no sense... swapping gear is rarely optional for the mythic pluses in question we are talking dungeons above 20 were many classes simply lack the tools to survive encounters without it. The world where this is used to far beyond what a bad player will ever reach. Gear swapping isn't stopping anyone from a +15.

As for the majority argument... that doesn't really hold much weight. It's been proven time and time again that balancing around the high end makes successful games. Look at any competitive online game with perhaps battle royals being the sole exception to the rule.