Why are the Horde always the aggressors

[DatToffer]

Because the Horde is about the needs of its people, while the Alliance is about the defense of moral values.

Having the Alliance attack to spread these values would be most hypocritical and too close from home.

[stresskiller]

both sides have bullies in world pvp

[Kelathos]

Having played through it, I am still not sold on the Horde attacking the Night Elves.
It seems to me Blizzard completely skipped the reason WHY we're at war.

Which, as the entire motive behind the expansion's opening chapter... is a very big oversight.

[Gavll]

Alliance were the aggressors in The Frozen Throne... in more than one way. They were the aggressors against the blood elves, and they were the aggressors against the orcs in the bonus campaign.

Gotta love Grand Marshal Garithos and Admiral Proudmoore. With Kul Tiras rejoining the Alliance, we might see more Alliance aggression in the future.

Jaina for Prez!

[therealbowser]

It wasn't the whole race, it was Keal's force for ignoring a direct order, which while kind of scummy is well within a commanders rights to dispense punishment. And the closest the Alliance came to being the aggressor in TFT was Daelin and his daughter helped you kill him... you also forget that Sylvanas flat out betrays and kills her allies right after the battle for lordaeron...

I'm sorry but you can't defend Garithos in this case. Period. Garithos intentionally was trying to get the blood elves to die, and they followed him loyally despite the fact he was a raging asshole of a human. Even if they did ignore a direct order (or did they? I don't even recall), executing their entire race because they worked with the naga -- who at the time did not threaten the humans -- instead of dying isn't even remotely close to being reasonable, especially when Kael'thas himself asked Garithos to punish him but spare his men.

Garithos is the very definition of an aggressor. Sorry.

I'm not arguing that Sylvanas isn't an aggressor nor that she isn't evil. This isn't a contest of "who's the most evil character". I am simply saying that there have been human antagonists in the past... because there have been.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not debatable. Yes, in the Alliance's eyes the Horde betrayed them on the Broken Shore. But the Alliance were objectively the aggressors in Stormheim.



And therein lies the problem. The Alliance and their victim mentallity, always believing that attacks on them by the Horde are "unprovoked". Which is just plain BS. The Alliance has done plenty of provoking, they're simply ignorant of the fact due to their own self-righteousness. Think about it: more than any other race, it is the Forsaken who have been persecuted, hunted, religiously even, by the human kingdoms, reviled simply for being, not even for something they have done. That is the context for Sylvanas's historical supposed "unprovoked" aggression.

The amount of times that the forsaken have attacked, tortured, and murdered humans (even innocent ones), even in times of peace, is astounding. Pretending like the humans are these nasty people that are unfair to the undead is... ridiculous. Do you know what Sylvanas's first interaction with the humans of Lordaeron was? Stabbing them in the back after promising to return their home to them, by sending her pet Dreadlord to execute the Grand Marshal of the Alliance forces (even if he probably deserved it).

Time and time again she has performed unprovoked attacks against the Alliance in the name of survival or other such nonsense. She has even used Horde races as test subjects for her plague. To even call her a stalwart ally of the Horde is stretching it. When forsaken take prisoners, Sylvanas has them tortured, experimented on, raised to eternal undeath -- but it's cool, the Alliance killed a couple undead so they obviously deserve it (lol). The cases where we see Alliance take undead prisoners (such as in vanilla's Hillsbrad quests), we see them treated with respect, and in fact Sylvanas sends assassins to kill them for daring to escape the Forsaken. Oh, I mean... rescuing them from their terrible fates, obviously, by killing them.

How about that time where Gilneas (currently unaligned with the Alliance) had done absolutely nothing to the forsaken, yet was tortured, killed, enslaved, and worse by the Forsaken simply because she didn't like them. Yeah, Genn is such a jerk, all Sylvanas really wants is peace, but Genn is just such a meanie to her and prevents it by defending his people from her. What a warmonger. Dare I even mention that Sylvanas had the ultimate goal there of taking the Scythe of Elune to turn the entire human race into her personal worgen slave army? Probably not, that would paint her as an unfriendly, dishonorable character and that's not allowed when discussing the noble Sylvanas Windrunner, lol.

By the way, did you read that comic recently where she was going to betray and murder her sisters and raise them as undead? Obviously it's proof that she is a kind and noble soul that she changed her mind, and didn't slaughter her own kin. lol

Sylvanas's actions during the failed assault on the broken shore did more than enough to demonstrate her willingness to co-exist with the Alliance, and there was a massive opportunity there for the Horde and Alliance to form a lasting peace with each other. But Genn blew it because he was too prejudiced against Sylvanas to even consider the possibility that the Horde did not simply betray them.

This is pure garbage. "Genn blew it." Do you recall that time on the Broken Shore where Genn openly attacked Sylvanas while they fought against the Burning Legion together? I don't. Genn didn't even speak out against her until she left them to die. Realize the context here: Sylvanas murdered his son, tortured and murdered his people unprovoked, and despite all of this, he was willing to work with Sylvanas Windrunner, the person he hates more than anyone else in the world because he believed in Varian Wrynn. Looks like his foolishness in working with Sylvanas was paid for in spades, sadly.

Sylvanas choosing to abandon the Alliance to die to save the Horde isn't completely unreasonable, but she did none the less leave them to die. The High King of the Alliance died an agonizing, perhaps even shameful death because Sylvanas Windrunner abandoned the fight instead of pushing against the Burning Legion... and they might have stopped the invasion right then had they fought on.

Do you know why Sylvanas was in Stormheim? Was it to form "lasting peace" with the Alliance? No, it was to imprison val'kyr so that she could continue building her undead armies at the cost of human lives. If we're arguing this with the context of knowing what was going on, Genn (coincidentally, perhaps?) had made the correct choice in attacking her, because if he had ignored her, she would have been a far greater threat to the Alliance in the long run.

Sylvanas has always been a warmonger. From the start she has betrayed her allies -- including her own Forsaken people in many cases -- for her own agenda. Stop pretending like she is a noble leader. She isn't. She is not innocent, she is not in the right. She doesn't have to be, though, because she is fighting to survive. Not for her people to survive, but Sylvanas herself -- she is terrified of death and desires immortality to avoid facing judgement for her crimes. Accept what she is; a conqueror, and stop pretending she's a victim. She is not, has never been, and treating her as such is an insult to her character.

[Deleted]

I mean it's simple, the writers are bad and have gotten much worse at writing the story. Metzen leaves and the story has no real direction anymore.

You know most of the major lore storylines have concluded right?

[Ryonas]

Uhh...because the Horde is comprised of evil monsters/animals rather than people (later affiliations of convenience with the Blood Elves and Nightborne excluded, of course), and has ALWAYS done what evil monsters do: mindlessly rampage and murder innocents. Their very PRESENCE on our planet is the result of a rampage, FFS. (Yes, I know that the creatures besides the Orcs were already on Azeroth. But before the evil devils came through the portal, Azeroth's lesser humanoid creatures were fairly easily kept in their places.)

[Raelbo]

This is pure garbage. "Genn blew it." Do you recall that time on the Broken Shore where Genn openly attacked Sylvanas while they fought against the Burning Legion together? I don't. Genn didn't even speak out against her until she left them to die. Realize the context here: Sylvanas murdered his son, tortured and murdered his people unprovoked, and despite all of this, he was willing to work with Sylvanas Windrunner, the person he hates more than anyone else in the world because he believed in Varian Wrynn. Looks like his foolishness in working with Sylvanas was paid for in spades, sadly.

So, basically, Genn allowed his hatred of Sylvanas (not unjustified) to mar his perception of Sylvanas' actions on the Broken Shore. Thus the golden opportunity for the Horde and Alliance to put their past behind them and forge a new relationship in the face of the dire and mutual threat was lost.

In short, "Genn blew it".

Sylvanas choosing to abandon the Alliance to die to save the Horde isn't completely unreasonable, but she did none the less leave them to die. The High King of the Alliance died an agonizing, perhaps even shameful death because Sylvanas Windrunner abandoned the fight instead of pushing against the Burning Legion... and they might have stopped the invasion right then had they fought on.

Sylvanas did not "choose to abandon the Alliance to die" because she had no choice in that matter. The choice she did face was retreat or annihilation. The Alliance forces were doomed either way.

The Alliance should actually be thankful that she chose to retreat. Because by blowing her horn she drew the Alliance leaders' attention to the fact that her archers were withdrawing from the battlefield, forcing the Alliance to do the same. Had she not done so, Varian and co would have continued to push further into the trap until someone noticed that instead of forsaken rangers providing support from the cliffs, there was a bunch of demons and ranger corpses lining the cliffs.

Genn is only alive today because Sylvanas retreated before her force was destroyed, giving the Alliance enough time to get (most of) their forces out. I get it: What happened to Varian was a devastating tragedy. Pinning it on Sylvanas as a player who has the benefit of having seeing what actually happened is just puerile.

Do you know why Sylvanas was in Stormheim? Was it to form "lasting peace" with the Alliance? No, it was to imprison val'kyr so that she could continue building her undead armies at the cost of human lives.

That's some spin you have put on the facts.

Yeah, it wasn't to form "lasting peace" with the Alliance. That's entirely irrelevant because there is nothing that states that anything the Horde, a sovereign nation, does has to have anything to do with the Alliance. The Horde is allowed to pursue their own independent agendas and it is none of the Alliance's business.

Which brings us to what her agenda actually was: To get more Val'kyr so that the forsaken race can continue. Nothing in that mandates that she go out and murder humans to achieve this. People die regardless of whether Sylvanas or the Forsaken have anything to do with it. And if you apply a bit of logic, for the Forsaken to be sustainable, they don't want to exterminate humanity, because that would cut off their future supply of Forsaken.

There is a win-win scenario here: With the Alliance and Horde at peace, Sylvanas could sustain her race with a supply of humans who died of natural causes (or at the hands of other enemies, eg the Legion/scourge/old gods etc). And in the context of a the World-ending Legion threat, where the Forsaken are on the side of Azeroth, you'd think that the ability to give fallen human soldiers a second chance to fight against the Legion as Forsaken, this would actually be in the interest of all the races of Azeroth.

If we're arguing this with the context of knowing what was going on, Genn (coincidentally, perhaps?) had made the correct choice in attacking her, because if he had ignored her, she would have been a far greater threat to the Alliance in the long run.

He made the wrong choice because it antagonised her and sparked the events of BfA. Legion represented a perfect opportunity for the Horde and Alliance to put aside their differences and enter into a golden era of peace. By attacking Sylvanas in Stormheim, Genn basically ensured that war would ensue.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. By assuming that Sylvanas is going to be a threat, and acting on that assumption, Genn ensures that she becomes that threat. Who knows how differently things might have turned out otherwise. I doubt it could have been much worse.

Sylvanas has always been a warmonger. From the start she has betrayed her allies -- including her own Forsaken people in many cases -- for her own agenda. Stop pretending like she is a noble leader. She isn't.

Sorry, but I disagree. She is determined, she is strong-willed, and she refuses to bow to anyone else. That does not make her a warmonger, or evil.

She is not innocent, she is not in the right.

No, she's not innocent. But she does have a right to exercise her own sovereignty.

She doesn't have to be, though, because she is fighting to survive. Not for her people to survive, but Sylvanas herself -- she is terrified of death and desires immortality to avoid facing judgement for her crimes. Accept what she is; a conqueror, and stop pretending she's a victim. She is not, has never been, and treating her as such is an insult to her character.

Painting her as a selfish, scared warmonger is pretty damn insulting to her character. I never said she was a victim. I said that the Forsaken have been victimised. I think you vastly underestimate how much she empathises with them because she too was a victim (of Arthas and the scourge). She is a self-made champion though, who has ascended to her position through sheer force of will, and she wants for her Forsaken to be great, not just for her own selfish reasons, but because she does, still, feel empathy for them.

I think if a lot of people could just see beyond their pre-conceived notion that she is just a selfish, evil bitch, they might recognise that Sylvanas is fiercely loyal to both the Forsaken and the Horde. Once you understand this, you can understand what motivates her and why she does the things she does and it's not just because she's terrified of death (even if that is part of it).

[Mehrunes]

ITT: therealbowser spreading the same lies they have been spreading for months (last time I personally saw them spread some of the falsehoods contained in this post was in November last year).

The amount of times that the forsaken have attacked, tortured, and murdered humans (even innocent ones), even in times of peace, is astounding. Pretending like the humans are these nasty people that are unfair to the undead is... ridiculous. Do you know what Sylvanas's first interaction with the humans of Lordaeron was? Stabbing them in the back after promising to return their home to them, by sending her pet Dreadlord to execute the Grand Marshal of the Alliance forces (even if he probably deserved it).

But the crux of Raelbo's point revolved around the issue of whether those attacks were provoked or not. None of what you said even addresses that, let alone rebukes them (which is kinda obvious in light of you not addressing them). All those attacks? Let's see, Hillsbrad, no confirmation who started things, conflict already ongoing by the time Vanilla starts. Southshore, same story. Dun Garok, same story. Arathi, same story. Ambermill, Kirin Tor Mages expanded into territory they had no claim to, after Forsaken already claimed it. Then started fucking with the Ley Lines in a way that freaked out even a former Kirin Tor Forsaken. Then, before Alliance started the war, there was only one more skirmish in Howling Fjord, in territorial waters of the Forsaken outpost. So I wonder who started it /s And, as far as Alliance humans go, that's it. Forsaken mostly fought the Scarlet Crusade (with Syndicate here and there) before the previous Alliance-Horde war.

Look at all those confirmed cases of unprovoked Forsaken attacks. Never mind that as BtS mentions, Forsaken sent envoys all over the world after securing their independence from the Scourge and the envoys sent to the Alliance were killed. Something Anduin admits and personally condemns. And before you mention Garithos again, given that there were no survivors of his army, the Alliance couldn't know about that. As such, that couldn't have factored into their decision-making in regards to Forsaken envoys and any possible further interactions with them. Forsaken on the other hand seem to know what happened to the envoys.

Time and time again she has performed unprovoked attacks against the Alliance in the name of survival or other such nonsense. She has even used Horde races as test subjects for her plague. To even call her a stalwart ally of the Horde is stretching it. When forsaken take prisoners, Sylvanas has them tortured, experimented on, raised to eternal undeath -- but it's cool, the Alliance killed a couple undead so they obviously deserve it (lol).

Name those unprovoked attacks then. Have fun with that in light of the previous paragraph. Also, the Alliance killed a couple undead? But I thought the Forsaken were unprovoked?

The cases where we see Alliance take undead prisoners (such as in vanilla's Hillsbrad quests), we see them treated with respect, and in fact Sylvanas sends assassins to kill them for daring to escape the Forsaken. Oh, I mean... rescuing them from their terrible fates, obviously, by killing them.

Great example. Except for the part where it's not. Because the Forsaken in questions weren't prisoners captured by the Alliance and then spared due to Alliance's benevolence. They were defectors that reached out to them after betraying the Forsaken and were kept in internment for the time being.

How about that time where Gilneas (currently unaligned with the Alliance) had done absolutely nothing to the forsaken, yet was tortured, killed, enslaved, and worse by the Forsaken simply because she didn't like them. Yeah, Genn is such a jerk, all Sylvanas really wants is peace, but Genn is just such a meanie to her and prevents it by defending his people from her. What a warmonger.

Gilneas was targeted "by the Forsaken" because Garrosh started a war against him when Sylvanas wasn't even in the region. Also, Gilneas has done nothing to the Forsaken? Yeah, in a way you are right. They have done nothing to help the people of Lordaeron and just hid behind their wall. Which is exactly what Garrosh used to rally the Forsaken. Though they have done a something as well. They unleashed the Worgen on the world. Worgen that have been attacking Forsaken in Silverpine for years. Even better, Worgen DKs are explicitly Silverpine Worgen that used to be under Arugal's control, not the Worgen from beyond the wall.

Dare I even mention that Sylvanas had the ultimate goal there of taking the Scythe of Elune to turn the entire human race into her personal worgen slave army? Probably not, that would paint her as an unfriendly, dishonorable character and that's not allowed when discussing the noble Sylvanas Windrunner, lol.

You're free to dare to even mention that, but you being this brave does not magically make it any less of a fanfiction than it was in November, or any other time you have said this falsehood. The only time anything remotely similar to what you're claiming was stated was from an Alliance NPC. There was no dialogue from the Forsaken, no intel gathered, nothing of the sort.

And the NPC in question did not provide or even claim such intel either. Because what they actually said was that Sylvanas COULD do such a thing with the Scythe. Not that she would or has the plans to do. The NPC was only describing the capabilities of the artifact they urged the player to recover. That's all. It has been pointed out to you months ago already.

Yet here you are still twisting and contorting that story beyond any recognition. When there is squat to base a claim that Sylvanas even wanted to do it, let alone that this was her "ultimage goal" as you presented here in your latest twist on this.

This is pure garbage. "Genn blew it." Do you recall that time on the Broken Shore where Genn openly attacked Sylvanas while they fought against the Burning Legion together? I don't. Genn didn't even speak out against her until she left them to die. Realize the context here: Sylvanas murdered his son, tortured and murdered his people unprovoked, and despite all of this, he was willing to work with Sylvanas Windrunner, the person he hates more than anyone else in the world because he believed in Varian Wrynn. Looks like his foolishness in working with Sylvanas was paid for in spades, sadly.

Do you remember the time after Broken Shore when he attacked Sylvanas because of his prejudice, confirmation bias and cherry-picking information?

Sylvanas choosing to abandon the Alliance to die to save the Horde isn't completely unreasonable, but she did none the less leave them to die. The High King of the Alliance died an agonizing, perhaps even shameful death because Sylvanas Windrunner abandoned the fight instead of pushing against the Burning Legion...

Why is it so hard for the bright Alliance minds to remember that Sylvanas wasn't the one who did that, because she wasn't the commanding Horde officer at the scene? Vol'jin was and he was the one who ordered Sylvanas to retreat.

Furthermore, the Horde didn't "abandon the Alliance to die". They withdrew after making a sound signal that the Alliance recognized. Given how they were shattered by the Legion spaceships warping in only to start shooting at them, the alternative was to stay and die for the glory of the Alliance. Which they were under no obligation to do. Especially since, given how the fight could not be won, it'd equal them dying for nothing. There was nothing to push there anymore at that point.

And that's already after the Horde had to split forces and rob itself of its own ranged support, because Varian was a retard that forgot to bring his own and the Horde's ranged forces had to babysit him instead of providing support to the rest of the Horde army. Alliance fought at 1.5 capacity on their front, Horde fought at half capacity at theirs. Despite the Horde facing a larger demon army with constant reinforcements. The Alliance is in no position whatsoever to ever complain about Horde's contribution to the Broken Shore.

Also, there's no logical link between the Horde's retreat and Varian's death. Varian died because he sacrificed himself to save the Alliance from the Fel Reaver. Something that wasn't even a factor when the Horde retreated, or even when Alliance decided to. Had Alliance waited any longer and they'd still all be on the ground when Gul'dan dropped it. And that'd result in the Alliance getting charred.

And the thing is, the Alliance didn't wait any longer precisely because the Horde retreated first and they decided that they would get overwhelmed in time. The Horde retread indirectly saved the Alliance from being Fel Reaver target practice.

and they might have stopped the invasion right then had they fought on.

If one wants to ignore the canon facts like how the factions were mislead about Legion's presence on Broken Shore because the Alliance got itself infiltrated or that the portal could not be sealed without the Pillars of Creation, sure.

Do you know why Sylvanas was in Stormheim? Was it to form "lasting peace" with the Alliance? No, it was to imprison val'kyr so that she could continue building her undead armies at the cost of human lives.

Except that's patently not true. Sylvanas repeatedly states she needed those Val'kyr to make the Forsaken immortal. Which would remove any need to make new Forsaken and as such remove the need for the cost of human lives. Cataclysm shows that Sylvanas was content with isolationism once she secured most of Lordaeron and kicked out almost all of the Alliance from it. Because it was secure, which she was after. Making it a bastion of an immortal army would make it secure beyond measure, removing any need to look beyond said bastion.

If we're arguing this with the context of knowing what was going on, Genn (coincidentally, perhaps?) had made the correct choice in attacking her, because if he had ignored her, she would have been a far greater threat to the Alliance in the long run.

Except as per above, by ruining her plans is what kept her a threat to the Alliance. Sylvanas is a threat to the Alliance because 1. she needs humans and 2. she considers them a threat. Making her army immortal would remove both of these factors. By preventing Sylvanas from obtaining Eyir, Genn only made sure that Sylvanas would keep considering the Alliance a threat (and increased that perception by a lot) and a source of new Forsaken. Especially since Genn killed some, lowering her manpower (which in turn increases Sylvanas' motivation to go after the Alliance). Genn did the opposite of what you're saying and the only tangible change in Sylvanas he achieved was to make her pissed at the Alliance.

@Raelbo Since therealbowser is a paragon of intellectual honesty, argumentative prowess and integrity like most of the Alliance geniuses on this forum, they ignore people that point out their lies and fanfiction (and as such expose them for what they are) too much, disrupting their safe space of headcanon with inconvenient facts and the biggest evil of all, contesting them with counterarguments. Since you haven't contested them enough yet, you're not ignored yet. So feel free to use any of the arguments above for your own reply. Especially the one about the Scythe of Elune, because it'd be nice if someone got them to finally stop spreading this abject bullshit.

[Ielenia]

You can't call "Horde" aggressors in the first and second war if you can't call "Alliance" aggressors in TFT. As far as WoW goes, Alliance was the aggressor in WotLK as well. Varian literally declared war on the Horde. As far as war crimes, Garithos was literally doing that with the blood elves. Genocide against an entire race is most definitely a war crime. I think he would have gotten along quite well with Garrosh.

Actually, to be fair, the Horde were ambushing the Alliance while they're busy fighting the Scourge long before Varian 'declared war' on the Horde. A declaration, mind you, that never went past being just a declaration.

Alliance were the Aggressors in...

Icecrown Citadel via the Gunship battle

Um... what? Where does it say that the Alliance were the aggressors there? If you play as Alliance, the Horde gunship attacks you, instead of the other way around.

[Mayia]

Problem is blizzards writing team isn't very good combined with the fact the alliance tends to want peace, even at the best of times the horde don't care too much about peace they want to ensure their lives can go on, so a bad writer can more easily find a reason a zealot horde member can be misunderstood or silly and start a war, the alliance on the other hand even when the worgen leader was super angry they did nothing with him, now he see's the undead in a different light they could've left him out of that situation and kept him hating sylvannas.

But it feels like they're trying to make them make up and hold hands like the best of friends, Wolf on corpse relationships seem to be Blizzards current kink.

[Panta]

Because if we are going to wait for the gayliance to make something, game would be the most boring game in history

[HordeFanboy]

Because blizzard have bad writers

[Tackhisis]

Garithos intentionally was trying to get the blood elves to die, and they followed him loyally despite the fact he was a raging asshole of a human. Even if they did ignore a direct order (or did they? I don't even recall), executing their entire race because they worked with the naga

He gave them an order. He should've obey it, or die, but he chose to collaborate with an enemy instead. He and his people deserved execution.

[Verdugo]

He gave them an order. He should've obey it, or die, but he chose to collaborate with an enemy instead. He and his people deserved execution.

I bet your Potential Paladin did way more to deserve execution during leveling.

[druenos]

First War, started by the Horde... Second War, started by the Horde... All of the faction conflicts during Cata, started by the Horde... Battle for Azeroth, started by the Horde...

Why can't the Alliance be the aggressors for once? Would be nice if the Horde wasn't always shoehorned into the role of bad guys and Alliance into the role of good guys.

Because the Horde are the bad guys.

[Mehrunes]

He gave them an order. He should've obey it, or die, but he chose to collaborate with an enemy instead. He and his people deserved execution.

The Scourge was the enemy. And the order did not say squat about the Naga.

[Whitedragon]

Do you know why Sylvanas was in Stormheim? Was it to form "lasting peace" with the Alliance? No, it was to imprison val'kyr so that she could continue building her undead armies at the cost of human lives. If we're arguing this with the context of knowing what was going on, Genn (coincidentally, perhaps?) had made the correct choice in attacking her, because if he had ignored her, she would have been a far greater threat to the Alliance in the long run.

I feel It's also worth adding every time this comes up that in addition to what ever evil she would have done by enslaving the Val'kyr, there is also the ramifications of that action, where in Odin decides to not give us the Aegis because we mortals stole one of his prized subjects from him and sided with Helya to do it no less... Yes that's right Sylvanas may have almost doomed us all for her own petty greed.

[Verdugo]

I feel It's also worth adding every time this comes up that in addition to what ever evil she would have done by enslaving the Val'kyr, there is also the ramifications of that action, where in Odin decides to not give us the Aegis because we mortals stole one of his prized subjects from him and sided with Helya to do it no less... Yes that's right Sylvanas may have almost doomed us all for her own petty greed.

I am sure you have proof for such outrageous claim.


Anyway, if Odyn was such a nice person that he would refuse to give us an artifact to stop Legion invasion just beucause his ego was bruised, I am sure we would get a proper Halls of Valor raid. Maybe they could have even written Helya as someone sympathetic in the game.

[Whitedragon]

I am sure you have proof for such outrageous claim.


Anyway, if Odyn was such a nice person that he would refuse to give us an artifact to stop Legion invasion just beucause his ego was bruised, I am sure we would get a proper Halls of Valor raid. Maybe they could have even written Helya as someone sympathetic in the game.

Proof that he would be mad the we stole one of his greatest warriors and worked with someone who he hates to do it? Would you be ok if I stole your wife with the help of your mortal enemy for my own personal gain, to then come back and ask hay I really need a car would you let me have yours? Hell even if he would forgive us, why risk it just for Sylvanas's gain? Even If we did ended up raiding him for it in the end the story is implied that we just barely beat the legion as is, why are we disposing of allies that helped us get that narrow victory?