Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Candy Cough]

Just think about it, they wanted peace after MoP And They Had it, what did the alliance do in the meantime?

Jaina threatens to end the horde and tries to convince Varian to kill the horde leaders at the end of SoO
Greymane assault horde troops unprovoked and loses the sky breaker
Caila Menethil tries to cause mass rebelions and defections within lordaeron and the forsaken to the alliance
They attack and murder innocent goblin miners who are mining for Azerite
They invade gallwix’ pleasure palace and murder Even more goblins and attempt to assasinate gallywix

This was all after ensuing peace with the alliance after Garrosh. The Horde didn't provoke the alliance one more time after that

[Sesethi]

Not really, I think after the book, I would understand that decision.

Also, M O R A L L Y G R A Y

[Katie45]

ignores all the bad shit sylvanas is doing. The state of the horde

[cparle87]

ignores all the bad shit sylvanas is doing. The state of the horde

Ignores all the bad shit the Alliance is doing. The state of the Alliance. The Alliance has professional victimhood raised to artform.

[Super Dickmann]

There were WMDs in Iraq. I mean azerite in Darkshore. If Sylvanas hadn't attacked, the navy you hear about at the start of the alliance questline would've taken Silithus back and the Alliance would've used the azerite in Darkshore to rearm. It was preemptive self-defense.

[Doffen]

She just want Teldrassil for the advantage it gives for the azerite. She hasn't mentioned any of those reasons you listed as a reason to take the tree, she just want to conquer the world. Nothing wrong with that.

[Candy Cough]

ignores all the bad shit sylvanas is doing. The state of the horde

She didnt do anything bad after MoP. And if we're going to go to things before mop we might aswell discuss the alliance war crimes aswell. Sure she nuked gilneas into oblivion, but garrosh told her to attack in the first place. Plague was the only questionable thing, but hey, we're talking about Sylvanas here, you know the witch that mind controlled garithos?

Alliance gunning down unarmed orcs in the Jade forest
Massacre at camp taurajo
The list goes on

[Nathasil]

Just think about it, they wanted peace after MoP And They Had it, what did the alliance do in the meantime?

Jaina threatens to end the horde and tries to convince Varian to kill the horde leaders at the end of SoO
Greymane assault horde troops unprovoked and loses the sky breaker
Caila Menethil tries to cause mass rebelions and defections within lordaeron and the forsaken to the alliance
They attack and murder innocent goblin miners who are mining for Azerite

This was all after ensuing peace with the alliance after Garrosh. The Horde didn't provoke the alliance one more time after that

It is very telling for your argumentation that the very first bullet in your "list" is actually BEFORE Varian grants the Horde armistice.

What Greymane did in Stormheim was a violation of this armistice, yes, but in his oppinion the Horde broke it first at Broken Shore. Which is not completely untrue. Or when did the motto of the Horde change from "Victory or Death" to "Run for your Life"?

Calia's presence at the meeting may not have been helpful, but do you have any evidence that those who decided to run would not have done so if she was not there? No you don't. Fact is: Sylvanas had even those Forsaken loyal to her killed. Why? Probably because she had planned to dispose of them even before the meeting. Her line to Nathanos proves that:
"I cannot allow this sentiment, this hope, to grow. It is an infection, ready to spread. I have to cut it out."
Where exactly is Calia mentioned in this justification of her actions? Right: Nowhere. Because she wanted all of them dead anyway.

You mean the same "innocent goblin miners" who are enslaved, mistreated and beaten by the Horde? You sure are a caring individual, right? Also, Before the Storm makes it absolutely clear that these miners are hurting Azeroth and the Azerite they are mining is LONG used to build weapons intended to be used against Stormwind at this point. If this is your definition of innocent, i would really like to know who isn't innocent in your oppinion? Oh, that's right...anything Alliance of course, because you are a blatant fanboy trumping your horn.

But to give you an easy to understand and short answer to the thread title: Yes. Yes it is.

[Sesethi]

It is very telling for your argumentation that the very first bullet in your "list" is actually BEFORE Varian grants the Horde armistice.

What Greymane did in Stormheim was a violation of this armistice, yes, but in his oppinion the Horde broke it first at Broken Shore. Which is not completely untrue. Or when did the motto of the Horde change from "Victory or Death" to "Run for your Life"?

Calia's presence at the meeting may not have been helpful, but do you have any evidence that those who decided to run would not have done so if she was not there? No you don't. Fact is: Sylvanas had even those Forsaken loyal to her killed. Why? Probably because she had planned to dispose of them even before the meeting. Her line to Nathanos proves that:
"I cannot allow this sentiment, this hope, to grow. It is an infection, ready to spread. I have to cut it out."
Where exactly is Calia mentioned in this justification of her actions? Right: Nowhere. Because she wanted all of them dead anyway.

You mean the same "innocent goblin miners" who are enslaved, mistreated and beaten by the Horde? You sure are a caring individual, right? Also, Beforethe Storm makes it absolutely clear that these miners are hurting Azeroth and the Azerite they are mining is LONG used to build weapons intended to be used against Stormwind at this point. If this is your definition of innocent, i would really like to know who isn't innocent in your oppinion? Oh, that's right...anything Alliance of course, because you are a blatant fanboy trumping your horn.

But t give you an easy to understand and short answer to the thread title: Yes. Yes it is.

Such a biased response. There was no glory in dying in a death trap like that. Sylvannas blew the retreat horn and Greymane treated the situation as it was convenient to him. You can blame this whole new tension we have since Legion on him.

Not to say Sylvannas is not doing or has being doing shady stuff. I'd rather have seen the mantle of Warchief fall down to Saurfang of back to Thrall, as they imbue the value of Honor that should be what represented the Horde from the start, as her character design and reasons never fit the warchief requirements imo.

[Super Dickmann]

Calia's presence at the meeting may not have been helpful, but do you have any evidence that those who decided to run would not have done so if she was not there? No you don't. Fact is: Sylvanas had even those Forsaken loyal to her killed. Why? Probably because she had planned to dispose of them even before the meeting. Her line to Nathanos proves that:
"I cannot allow this sentiment, this hope, to grow. It is an infection, ready to spread. I have to cut it out."
Where exactly is Calia mentioned in this justification of her actions? Right: Nowhere. Because she wanted all of them dead anyway.

This is objectively false, have any of you pansies whinging about Sylvanas even read the book? You can see her internal narration where she first recalls them and only gives the order to shoot to kill when Calia announces herself and parts of the Desolate Council go with her. Her reason for accepting the meeting is because she thinks it'll fail and demoralize the Forsaken, bring them into her camp.

What Greymane did in Stormheim was a violation of this armistice, yes, but in his oppinion the Horde broke it first at Broken Shore. Which is not completely untrue. Or when did the motto of the Horde change from "Victory or Death" to "Run for your Life"?

Using our magnificent brains we can figure out Greymane was wrong because had the Horde stayed they'd all die and nothing about the outcome would change. But disregarding that, why would the Horde give two shits about his thought process and not the fact that he attempted to kill their leader and bombed their army in the middle of an invasion by the greatest threat to Azeroth?

[8bithamster]

I love how people here defend the alliance. "yes greymane broke rules but she did it first mommy! So he's innocent"

Both factions keep fucking up. There is no innocent side.

[Livnthedream]

#ImWithHer

[Super Dickmann]

#ImWithHer

It was her turn.

[Shadowtwili]

While I agree that the Alliance is, indeed, not blameless in this most recent war we should not forget that the New Horde broke the most recent truce, during the war against the Iron Horde, on the island of Ashran, using this justification:

"Da Alliance think dey so smart. Dey hidin' behind dis truce of deirs, meanwhile dey searchin' dis island high and low for a powerful weapon, but no askin' for our help.

Sure, dey say da weapon is ta be used against da Iron Horde, but what is ta stop dem from turnin' it on us once we off dis world?

I say we take da weapon, and we be showin' dem who has da powah -- on dis world as well as ours.

For da Horde!"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Hunter_Gar%27ant

As seen above it is the New Horde that attacks unarmed miners and archeologists on Ashran searching for a weapon against the Iron Horde (which does not make it alright for the Alliance to attack Goblin miners in Silithus, ofcourse).

Ofcourse we can drag in all kinds of arguments on why the Alliance or New Horde started the war by using examples from before the most recent truce, but using that logic we could go back all the way to the First War or even to the start of the cosmos, but I personally try to use only arguments from after the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Edit.

About Calia Menethil, Sylvanas Windrunner herself outright stated that Calia Menethil was not a member of the Grand Alliance and thus her death is not a cause for war, and Anduin Wrynn, while angered did agree on this subject.

Sylvanas Windrunner could've easily blamed the Grand Alliance for those defections and subsequent deaths.

[Steampunkette]

The answer is... no. It really isn't -that- unjustified.

Depending, of course, on whose perspective it's being viewed from. Viewed from the Alliance perspective it is entirely unjustified, since it is an aggressive act against them without a clear line of events that spells out the Alliance's guilt that causes them to be 'worthy' of attacking. From the Horde's viewpoint, it is entirely justified based on the danger that the Alliance poses. From the various threats and attempts at committing genocide, to the sneak-attack attempted assassination of their warchief, to the killing of goblin miners to steal the Azerite they were mining.

And from an externalistic perspective... it should be somewhat justified by balancing the two viewpoints.

Yes. The Horde does have reason to fear the Alliance. The Alliance has more military power than the Horde, has threatened genocide in the past, and though Anduin would never condone such an atrocity he clearly doesn't have control over the Alliance as Varian did. This is evidenced by the murder of goblins and the attempted assassination of the Warchief at Stormheim while under a flag of truce.

The Alliance, on the other hand, relies on arguments of consequentialism and the balance of power. Yes, Genn's actions in Stormheim were over the top and severe, yes he was acting out of hatred and personal vendetta against Sylvanas, yes he threw away Alliance and Horde lives by the handful while the greater threat was present, yes his decision cost the Alliance their airship the Skybreaker, yes he specifically chose the Skybreaker because Rogers is as genocidally hateful of the Horde as he is of the Forsaken so that no one would question his orders, yes he tried to assassinate a foreign head of state in an act which could have caused the Horde to end the truce and the world to end with the Horde retaliating against his criminal actions, and yes he -believed- the truce had ended when it rather clearly had not... But at least he stopped Sylvanas from forcing Eyir into Slavery, so do all the war-crimes and wrong-doings -really- matter? Yes it is wrong to target civilians, kill them, and steal the Horde's resources, but it's dangerous to let the Horde have it unless we can defend ourselves against it so we had to murder those goblins and steal their loot.

The War against the Alliance is, therefore, at least somewhat justified by both the Alliance's recent actions and their overall intentions and the fractured nature of the Alliance's power which keeps people who want to commit terrible atrocities in the position to do so. Because of the scope of the war's intent (To push the Alliance off of Kalimdor) the decision to initiate it can be justified... The scope of the resulting war, however, is of course unjustifiable.

Whatever is really happening in the Night Elf Lands really screws the pooch.

[MikeBogina]

Alliance had it coming, sadly it's the Night Elves who have to take a loss instead of the untouchable humans...

[Vladier]

Why does no one ever mention that those "innocent" miners in Silithus slaughtered the Explorers League's expeditiion in their sleep, which was there to assert the situation? And kidnapped a gnome that was part of that expedition and forced her to develop Azerite weapons for them? They are not civillians.

[Unholyground]

Why does no one ever mention that those "innocent" miners in Silithus slaughtered the Explorers League's expeditiion in their sleep, which was there to assert the situation? And kidnapped a gnome that was part of that expedition and forced her to develop Azerite weapons for them? They are not civillians.

We started mining it first, it is our Azerite #dealwithitalliancescum

[Thage]

Any moral high ground here was lost when the Horde began attacking civilians in Ashenvale. Can't put a good spin on genocide no matter how you try to paint it--and yes, the systematic slaughter of every man, woman, and child is genocide. Is Genn an asshole and tactically incompetent to the point that anyone giving him any military command needs a thorough psychological examination? Yes. Is Jaina once again being yo-yo'd between raving, kill-the-Horde lunacy and 'on the road to recovery'? Yes. But escalating the war to 'Let's wipe 'em all off the map to make a statement to their allies' is something you'd expect out of a raid boss, and we've killed major lore characters for much less.

- - - Updated - - -

Why does no one ever mention that those "innocent" miners in Silithus slaughtered the Explorers League's expeditiion in their sleep, which was there to assert the situation? And kidnapped a gnome that was part of that expedition and forced her to develop Azerite weapons for them? They are not civillians.

Because Sylvanas has tits and an appealing figure, thus must be defended at all costs. She's as good at cultivating a cult of personality out-of-game as she is in-game.

[Amaterasu65]

She didnt do anything bad after MoP. And if we're going to go to things before mop we might aswell discuss the alliance war crimes aswell. Sure she nuked gilneas into oblivion, but garrosh told her to attack in the first place. Plague was the only questionable thing, but hey, we're talking about Sylvanas here, you know the witch that mind controlled garithos?

Alliance gunning down unarmed orcs in the Jade forest
Massacre at camp taurajo
The list goes on

They were attacking the Alliance and then decided to surrender.