N'Zoth and Azshara

[8bithamster]

That fish being N'zoth is a lot, and I mean A LOT more probable than Wrathion being N'zoth.

And where did I say that nzoth is wrathion? Oh right I didn't. Both are quite.. Interesting but about as reliable atm as "Chen stormstout is garrosh in disguise" we have the same amount of evidence.

[Kyphael]

And where did I say that nzoth is wrathion? Oh right I didn't. Both are quite.. Interesting but about as reliable atm as "Chen stormstout is garrosh in disguise" we have the same amount of evidence.

Wait, when did I miss that theory? That Garrosh is Chen in disguise? Is that for real or just a joke?

On topic, fish are already creepy without having red eyes and being a conduit for an Old God.

[ohwell]

This is a still from one of the new pre-BfA animated shorts. It seems like N'Zoth appears to Azshara as an orange eyed fish when she's drowning. The question is, can all of the Old Gods shapeshift or is it just an avatar that N'Zoth is using? Yogg-Saron was likewise able to appear as Sara before revealing his true form.

It would be an interesting development if N'Zoth could take on a humanoid form to interact with us during questing. That's much better than him just being some distant eldritch abomination.

Nzoth was definitely still imprisoned at the time so it wasn't him shapeshifted.

Hell he more than likely still is right now.

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If even the Old Gods themselves, C'Thun and Yogg in particular, still got killed, N'Zoth (who was less powerful than those two) doesn't really have much room to say that Deathwing "wasn't that powerful to begin with" if he was killed by us.


Citation needed on the bolded part. I meant no offense, but seriously, I've seen so many of those "I remember / I heard / I saw that a dev said / posted <insert fan theories / headcanons here>" that I have a hard time believing anything that can't be found on a quick search. And so far, nothing has stated that any dev ever said that.

Much less so many things that the devs say are incredibly wrong and off that even if they did say it I don't trust off the cuff comments from devs as being canon at this point.

[8bithamster]

Wait, when did I miss that theory? That Garrosh is Chen in disguise? Is that for real or just a joke?

On topic, fish are already creepy without having red eyes and being a conduit for an Old God.

Seriously... Should I put a /sarcasm behind it next time?

People need to stop pouting theories with 0 basis.

[nonsens021]

If Wrathion is N'Zoth it would be ludicrous. Wrathion gave us the Fangs of the Father specifically to fight N'Zoth's forces, and wanted the war between the Horde and Alliance to end for good, while N'Zoth feeds off it. It's possible Wrathion has been, or is being manipulated, but having witnessed his birth it would be nonsense to declare that all along he was just an avatar for N'Zoth. Don't forget that Deathwing tried to destroy his egg in Badlands too, which is nonsense given that he was working for N'Zoth.

Azeroth "forces" not a threat for Old Gods, because we cant kill them fully. He needed us to face Legion and Sargeras! Imagine "end times" happend and like 5-10 yrs later Sargeras rides in Azeroth on his BigD Sword with whole Pantheon corrupted. That a real DEAD END for Old Gods and not only on Azeroth!

[Kyphael]

Seriously... Should I put a /sarcasm behind it next time?

People need to stop pouting theories with 0 basis.

Pfft, these are the mmo-champion forums. Half the threads are theories with 0 basis, I thought I might have missed one in the day. That would have been a real funny one, I was looking forward to the explanation if it was real.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Azeroth "forces" not a threat for Old Gods, because we cant kill them fully. He needed us to face Legion and Sargeras! Imagine "end times" happend and like 5-10 yrs later Sargeras rides in Azeroth on his BigD Sword with whole Pantheon corrupted. That a real DEAD END for Old Gods and not only on Azeroth!

Citation needed on not being able to kill them fully. Xal'Atath certainly seems to think they're dead, and she was one.
Also if N'Zoth wanted the hour of twilight to fail why even bother arranging it?

[tocoman]

Citation needed on not being able to kill them fully. Xal'Atath certainly seems to think they're dead, and she was one.
Also if N'Zoth wanted the hour of twilight to fail why even bother arranging it?

The most logical explanation is they weren't sure what they wanted to do with N'zoth yet, so his hour of twilight had to fail

[Wilfire]

The most logical explanation is they weren't sure what they wanted to do with N'zoth yet, so his hour of twilight had to fail

Easy, they could always say that N'Zoth's Void overlords were forcing him to go through with the Hour of Twilight but he had different plans so he created an avatar for himself (Wrathion) that the Void would have no control over and then stopped the Hour of Twilight. That's why the Void showed Alleria visions of herself killing N'Zoth and taking his place. There's also this:

Wrathion says: Do you deny it? The dark visions? The voices in your head?
Fahrad says: No. No! I'm in control of the voices. They're there to help me.
Wrathion says: And what are they telling you now, Fahrad? What do your dark masters whisper?
Fahrad yells: Kill.... they want me to kill you now... oh, why did you have to go and anger them?
Fahrad yells: You have proven too difficult to control!

After being absent in the expansion that he directly caused, the only thing that could redeem Wrathion as a character is if he turned out to be N'Zoth.

[Deleted]

How does that make any sense? Deathwing was moments from enacting the Hour of Twilight which would mean ultimate victory for the Old Gods. Why in the blazes would they jeopardize that in favor of some super long-running and unforeseeable scheme that gets him, what, some enthralled heroes with a tiny fraction of Sargeras's power?

Unless N'zoth is Tzeentch in disguise and must ensure every plan of his fails, there's no way to justify this at all. Wrathion was cleansed of corruption, he acted against the Old Gods, he can't be an agent of N'zoth just because he kinda shares eye color with a fish.

The old gods do not want to annihilate life though, they want to enslave it, or otherwise they'll never be able to corrupt the titan since they need their slaves to free them beforehand since they can't really do it from their current and shackled position (or not to the amount they need to corrupt her).

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Citation needed on not being able to kill them fully. Xal'Atath certainly seems to think they're dead, and she was one.
Also if N'Zoth wanted the hour of twilight to fail why even bother arranging it?

As seen with Y'shaarj, cutting him apart didn't really kill him, the corruption and his essence still resided within the imprisoned heart.

Think Y'shaarj is the only old god that's actually dead, doubt C'thun / Yogg'saron are even close to being dead.

[Grusalugg]

Silas Darkmoon is N'zoth.

[Volardelis]

Isn't there a theory out there that N'zoth killed the whelpingly and took his place? N'zoth would have been scheming like this during cataclysm.

But why would N'zoth order rogues to KILL Deathwing and other black dragons?

Even for an old god, killing your main pawn before they even do their job is kinda silly.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

As seen with Y'shaarj, cutting him apart didn't really kill him, the corruption and his essence still resided within the imprisoned heart.

Think Y'shaarj is the only old god that's actually dead, doubt C'thun / Yogg'saron are even close to being dead.

Xal'Atath describes them as being defeated as much as Y'Shaarj was. I also think that the Sha-like remnants we saw in Ulduar before Legion don't necessarily make Yogg alive. They're echoes, not Yogg itself. C'Thun's remnants whisper in the Med'an comic to have Cho'Gall resurrect him-you don't resurrect something that isn't dead.
The analogy I saw around that I like was that the Titans removing Y'Shaarj was like tearing a parasite out of flesh. It's going to do more damage, but a smaller, more surgical procedure could kill them effectively.

We do need some clarification on how dead the Old Gods we've fought are though, hopefully BfA will bring some much-needed clarity. There's a lot of conflicting and dated Old God lore that could do with clearing up.

[Volardelis]

The black dragons would be a disposable tool to N'zoth, merely a tool to get closer to us, give us artifacts that he was watching and manipulating us through?

I know its a reach but he was watching us when we got our legendary rings on draenor, "your coming was foretold in the rings"??

N'zoth has Deathwing killed AFTER the hour of twilight was a success, as seen in End time. Doing it prior is idiotic.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Easy, they could always say that N'Zoth's Void overlords were forcing him to go through with the Hour of Twilight but he had different plans so he created an avatar for himself (Wrathion) that the Void would have no control over and then stopped the Hour of Twilight. That's why the Void showed Alleria visions of herself killing N'Zoth and taking his place. There's also this:



After being absent in the expansion that he directly caused, the only thing that could redeem Wrathion as a character is if he turned out to be N'Zoth.

Why would N'Zoth's plans differ? Of course they thought they could control Wrathion, they've managed to control every other black dragon because the brood is corrupted. Wrathion is different because we purified his egg with Titan tech in Badlands.

[Volardelis]

Deathwing was strong but he still got killed, not very powerful for the most powerful of minions. Maybe he wasn't that powerful to begin with?

He could only be destroyed fully by an artifact that could only harm Dragons in a major way. The only way we got said artifact was abusing the timeways. Nozdormu broke his duty of maintaining the timelines so we could defeat Deathwing. And even though Deathwing died, the other aspects lost their power for good and their flights can no longer breed.

Considering that Deathwing never put his power into the Dragon Soul, it is possible that the Earth-warder's powers can be passed down to another, similar to what happened with Kalecgos. It is also possible that black dragons can still breed, providing there is any brood mothers left.

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Do I think Wrathion is N'Zoth no. However some of the stuff he wanted in MoP is...suspicious.

He pushed us to spark a HvA war, he REALLY wanted that to happen and to what end? How does one of the factions obliterating the other out of existence benefit him especially since he didnt care which side won.

The AvH war was already underway by the time he got involved in it during patch 5.1. He wanted the war to end quickly, he originally thought the horde would win since they would do anything to win. Even if that meant using the Sha, which is something Wrathion was fine with since he empowered us with a few sha touched gems. However after Vol'jin began his rebellion, Wrathion sided with the alliance, hoping that Varian would integrate the horde rebellion into the Alliance. However that never happened. Also he did actually care with side won. He threw a massive tantrum when he heard that the "idiot King" allowed the horde to exist as a separate entity.

[Zandalariprelate]

Why would N'Zoth's plans differ? Of course they thought they could control Wrathion, they've managed to control every other black dragon because the brood is corrupted. Wrathion is different because we purified his egg with Titan tech in Badlands.

Probably he is smart enough to realize if he controls the power of Azeroth, he can overthrow his own masters, something like Illidan was pretending to do in WC3

[Leodok]

Wrathion was cleansed of corruption, he acted against the Old Gods, he can't be an agent of N'zoth just because he kinda shares eye color with a fish.

I just want to point out how right this guy is. You guys got too much tinfoil.

[tocoman]

I've always wondered about ill'gynoth's "your coming was foretold in the rings" quote, and the fact that Wrathion in whelp form is watching us get our legendary rings in Draenor.

[Deleted]

Xal'Atath describes them as being defeated as much as Y'Shaarj was. I also think that the Sha-like remnants we saw in Ulduar before Legion don't necessarily make Yogg alive. They're echoes, not Yogg itself. C'Thun's remnants whisper in the Med'an comic to have Cho'Gall resurrect him-you don't resurrect something that isn't dead.
The analogy I saw around that I like was that the Titans removing Y'Shaarj was like tearing a parasite out of flesh. It's going to do more damage, but a smaller, more surgical procedure could kill them effectively.

We do need some clarification on how dead the Old Gods we've fought are though, hopefully BfA will bring some much-needed clarity. There's a lot of conflicting and dated Old God lore that could do with clearing up.

Yogg and Cthun are both mentioned as imprisoned in lore whereas Yshaarj is the only one labeled as deceased.