Kinda fed up with the horde being lead by Villains.

[Kralljin]

Do continue the tale of how Sylvanas sounded the horn only because Forasken on the field were enjoying themselves and how there was no indication that a group of Forsaken moving towards Stromgarde were traitors though.

Does it make a difference?
Sylvanas killed them because of that and there's no beating around the bush for that.

[mickybrighteyes]

Does it make a difference?
Sylvanas killed them because of that and there's no beating around the bush for that.

thing is that the horn was NOT sounded because there were forsaken enjoying the event. that was noted and the event still continued. Some forsaken were starting to move towards Stromgarde and Calia was seen. Calia who was also for some reason trying to rally forsaken to head towards Stromgarde.

These forsaken on the field were all Desolate Council, the people that pushed for this meeting to occur and the organization running the undercity. Now it is a bit odd how the living heir to the kingdom happens to show up and these council members seem to be flocking to said heir's command... It's actually funny overall since it wouldn't be the first time someone tried to take the undercity from her. Maybe she viewed the lose of that part of the council as a better trade than letting another Putress back in.


edit:
again, Sylvanas likely wouldn't have really cared if some forsaken enjoyed themselves as she still regarded the whole ordeal as a tool either way. either she was going to show her forsaken the "harsh reality" or give them a present for doing what she wanted and having another meeting in the future.

[Mehrunes]

I think the trouble with the scenario is that we're in her head and we know when and why she orders the killings. From the outside it indeed kind of looks justified somewhat as a reaction to Calia's idiocy and the Council's treason (even Anduin mentions it if I recall). Yet we have her perspective which states, with little ambiguity, that she wants the meeting to fail and the reason she kills everyone is because she cannot tolerate any Forsaken that isn't miserable and loyal to her. Events just kind of give her an excuse to rid herself of any in the Council that isn't completely loyal to her alone.

She also can't tolerate any Forsaken she cannot trust. Which includes people that could have been returning only out of fear. It's her own words. And IIRC when she was thinking about the event failing it was to cause infighting among the Council. It'd be hardly a reason for infighting if each and every one of them was rejected by the living.

No she doesn't, just because Sylvanas thinks they're not Forsaken anymore, doesn't mean they're automatically deserting, the sole reason why she considers them traitors is because they were accepted by their relatives, that's the sole reason why they were still on the field.

Just because you consistently engage in intellectual honesty and deliberately ignore the first reason she gave (i.e. being unable to trust the Council members that could have been returning only out of fear) doesn't mean it does not exist and as such does not make what you mentioned here the sole reason.

Sylvanas has not shown at any point a sign that it was a mistake to shoot the others down, she ordered their death for a reason and that isn't "They might be traitors", she ordered to kill them because they would undermine her narrative.

Right, right. Sylvanas talking about how she couldn't trust Forsaken that harbored desire to defect as well but returned only out of fear has nothing to do with them being traitors. Not at all.

In other words, to Sylvanas being a Forsaken means that your living relatives literally have forsaken you, if they didn't then you're not Forsaken.

I've said it above: For Sylvanas, this meeting went south for Sylvanas already before Calia appeared and even sounded the horn beforehand.

Beforehand she learned Calia. After she already noticed an ongoing defection. Keep ignoring that though, maybe one day you'll find someone that considers it a convincing argument.

The atrocity is more her goal itself as far as I'm concerned. Ensuring that your entire population is as miserable as possible so as to perpetuate your cult of personality and ensure they will do whatever you ask of them in your pursuit of avoiding the death you richly deserve at this point is just too selfishly evil for me.

First of all, you added the part from "perpetuate" onward all by yourself. It's not stated in the book. Secondly, the part of the book @Super Dickmann quoted (yet another part of the book that people keep forgetting) in an earlier reply to this post of yours showcases her actual motivation here. In that Sylvanas isn't as much selfish and self-serving about it, but simply self-centered.

In that she projects her own experience with Vereesa onto the entirety of the Forsaken. It's not that temporary reunion is impossible to her, it's that it's only temporary. And, as per her own words, in the end it will only lead to more pain for the Forsaken and will leave make them deteriorate into "heartbroken shells, wanting something they can never have".

And the thing is, she's right. Only Desolace Council members were allowed to participate in the Gathering on the Forsaken side. But each of them gave a list of names to contact. And even for merely a handful of Forsaken more than half of the humans, their own relatives and friends, rejected them. And then there are the Desolate Council members that survived. Those that were completely rejected. Either by getting no positive replies at all, or getting some, only to be rejected in Arathi anyway.

So let's say the handful of Forsaken like Parqual and the Felstones went to Stormwind with their relatives. If even their other friends and relatives still rejected them, how would strangers react? The majority of Stormwind would throw bananas at them, just like they did with the Ebon Blade.

[Kiri]

Alternatively, returning only out of fear (i.e. being a defector at heart and only feigning loyalty to save their asses) during an ongoing defection with a usurper thrown into the mix is punishable by death, because letting a potential fifth column back into your city as its leaders in your absence is patently moronic. Alas, ignoring the first part of what Sylvanas said when Nathanos objected is swell.




Which is exactly why Sylvanas ordered the attack... only after she learned about Calia and jumped to conclusion about her trying to usurp her...

Things that preceded Sylvanas sounding the horn:
1. Sylvanas noticing something is off, long after Forsaken still on the field started to enjoy themselves
2. Sylvanas coming to the conclusion that the thing that's off is that some Forsaken are defecting

Do continue the tale of how Sylvanas sounded the horn only because Forasken on the field were enjoying themselves and how there was no indication that a group of Forsaken moving towards Stromgarde were traitors though.

Your order is wrong. Your own quotes prove that. Elsie hearing the horn is the end of her discussion with Calia. How on earth then can that discussion happen not only after the horn, but after batriders have been dispatched? And because of that, what are you basing the notion that some Forsaken already made a run for it before that discussion ended? Especially since Elsie died immediately after hearing the horn and shouting the order to retreat.

Which on a side note is iffy writing to be honest. Because in the scene on the field Elsie died very shortly after hearing the horn. Yet in the earlier scene with Sylvanas, after Sylvanas sounded the horn there was enough time for a Forsaken to fly back to Thoradin Wall and have a discussion with Sylvanas about Calia being there. And then the scene ended before Sylvanas even gave the orders to Dark Rangers. Maybe the Forsaken bats are so fast they can move back in time or something.

Anyway, Golden being an inconsistent hack aside, focusing on how things were shown on the field side, given how the only Forsaken that was shown to have reacted to the horn before the killing was Elsie, who then died immediately after she shouted to the rest of the Forsaken to retreat (which would be rather pointless if they were already reacting to the horn and retreating), there's no indication that the Forsaken that were returning to the wall started to do so before the killing started. Because there wasn't much time for them to react.

And Nathanos' reaction makes sense regardless of when they started to return. Not knowing what Sylvanas was thinking, seeing Forsaken returning to the wall getting killed even after the killing started would look weird. On the other hand Sylvanas' explanation that she can't trust if they are returning only out of fear doesn't make much sense, if at all, if they started to return before the killing began.

How so? What we are given is that Sylvanas blew the horn and was afterwards informed of Calia being there. At the same time, we are told that Elsie ordered the retreat immediately after hearing the horn. Unless sound travels very, very slowly for some reason, these two events, i.e. blowing the horn and hearing it, happen simultaneously.
As such, the Forsaken that do return upon being given the agreed-upon signal to retreat have to do so before the killing starts. The following page involving Anduin confirms that, for he sees multiple things - some Forsaken returning, some heading towards him, and Calia and Elsie arguing. He does not report any killing happening at that point. Thus, at least the first ones to head back do so before any killing occurs. I.e. they are obeying Sylvanas completely and to the letter.

It is only after that Anduin scene that we are shown Elsie still trying to tell Calia off, who then reveals herself to everyone. Elsie rejected her when the horn was blown, but Calia insisted she come with them. Don't get hung up on the "end of the discussion" thing. Elsie said "No thanks, goodbye", Calia pleaded to stay and Elsie allowed herself to be drawn into another round of arguments.

As for the bats. It does make sense when you consider the proper order of events. As per the page quote:
Sylvanas sounds horn. "At that moment", the bat rider with the priest appears. Note that this is not one of the bats sent to kill. This is one of the bats circling the area to supervise the meeting, which is why the rider is a priest, not a dark ranger.
Then Sylvanas is told of Calia, thinks, and orders the batriders carrying the dark rangers out.

Elsie did not die immediately after hearing the horn. The author clearly describes hearing the horn-->retreat is sounded-->Elsie and Calia argue and some retreat--->Calia reveals herself, Elsie dies.

While I agree that Golden is not the best writer and should have made it clearer, that is the order of events shown to us on these pages. There is a timespan depicted between the sounding of the horn and the killing, during which actions are taken. Sylvanas makes the call to kill those Forsaken since she does not trust them due to potential contact with Calia at best; because they did not obey her beyond the letter of her orders at worst.

[Kralljin]

Now it is a bit odd how the living heir to the kingdom happens to show up and these council members seem to be flocking to said heir's command... It's actually funny overall since it wouldn't be the first time someone tried to take the undercity from her.

Some Forsaken move towards Stromgarde (a.k.a. defectors)
Some Forsaken just stand on the field totally agast. (a.k.a. potential defectors)
Some Forsaken were moving back to the Wall as ordered (a.k.a. loyalists)

Yet all three groups were actually one and the same and followed the same plan? Doesn't make any sense.
Sylvanas even realized later on that this was not planned, did she regret killing the "loyal" ones? Nope.

again, Sylvanas likely wouldn't have really cared if some forsaken enjoyed themselves as she still regarded the whole ordeal as a tool either way. either she was going to show her forsaken the "harsh reality" or give them a present for doing what she wanted and having another meeting in the future.

Sylvanas played those that returned early by faking pity and even the council on the field realized that there most likely won't be another meeting.
Sylvanas didn't like the idea of fraternizing with the enemy, and she simply sees the Alliance as enemy, peace is not an option for her.

Just because you consistently engage in intellectual honesty and deliberately ignore the first reason she gave (i.e. being unable to trust the Council members that could have been returning only out of fear) doesn't mean it does not exist and as such does not make what you mentioned here the sole reason.

And what would Sylvanas have done if Calia didn't appear? Still killed them?
Would the situation be that different for those that went back to the wall in this situation?

Like seriously, answer me this: Did Sylvanas set up the council members, that anyone who does not get rejected by their living relatives needs to be rooted out?

[mickybrighteyes]

Some Forsaken move towards Stromgarde (a.k.a. defectors)
Some Forsaken just stand on the field totally agast. (a.k.a. potential defectors)
Some Forsaken were moving back to the Wall as ordered (a.k.a. loyalists)

Yet all three groups were actually one and the same and followed the same plan? Doesn't make any sense.
Sylvanas even realized later on that this was not planned, did she regret killing the "loyal" ones? Nope.

who's saying they're all in on the same plan. They all were part of the ruling council of the undercity and a main reason for this event taking place. Things went sideways when Calia Menethil started trying to rally 'her' people to defect. Those still in the field at that time could be doing anything. Is it right? nope... is it wrong? again that's hard to tell. We the viewers get better insight since we get a peak at one of the loyal ones who refused to defect.

Sylvanas played those that returned early by faking pity and even the council on the field realized that there most likely won't be another meeting.
Sylvanas didn't like the idea of fraternizing with the enemy, and she simply sees the Alliance as enemy, peace is not an option for her.

Except for how she agreed that the event was in itself a good incentive tool to use to manipulate her people... main reason it ended like it did was because someone decided it was a good time to stage a coup.... with no army or back up... just their own feelings and poor judgement.

[Kralljin]

We the viewers get better insight since we get a peak at one of the loyal ones who refused to defect.

Sylvanas later outright stated that she wanted those dead because she wanted them "broken and desolate", not filled with hope.
There's a reason why even Nathanos was taken agast by Sylvanas' order.

And that reasoning would have been true even without Calia.

Except for how she agreed that the event was in itself a good incentive tool to use to manipulate her people...

There would be no second meeting because Sylvanas goals for the meeting are contradictory to that of her own people (at least of the council).

1.If Forsaken had been rejected at the meeting, no Forsaken would want another one
2.If Forsaken had been accepted at the meeting, Sylvanas would not allower another because it undermines her further goals, that being war with the Alliance.

[mickybrighteyes]

There would be no second meeting because Sylvanas goals for the meeting are contradictory to that of her own people (at least of the council).

Well of course there won't be... the fallout from this one was too much. Now you can assume or infer all you like but we won't know for sure beyond her stated reasoning prior to the Calia reveal... those 'contradictory' goals made it work for her either way and appear that Anduin was pushing for something that really was just a bad deal for him.

no matter the outcome. Sylvanas could look like the good guy. anduin rolls up, agrees to meet. If she follows the set rules and lets it play out. She gets another tool to coerce her people. If it's a trap she can use it to move the horde to action. If it goes off as expected and the humans reject the forsaken... they will remember what she said before hand and listen in the future. Overall, all she had to do was NOT kill any of Anduin's people and keep the forsaken from acting up and the event, no matter which way it turned out, would end in her favor. That's not to say the goals are contradictory... it's that every outcome was favorable EXCEPT FOR surprise Menethil coup and apparent mass defection.

edit:

again. Sylvanas own words were that future meetings could occur if that one turned out fine. Sylvanas didn't believe it would work... hell only Anduin really had any such hope, but he's sort of like that.

[Mehrunes]

How so? What we are given is that Sylvanas blew the horn and was afterwards informed of Calia being there. At the same time, we are told that Elsie ordered the retreat immediately after hearing the horn. Unless sound travels very, very slowly for some reason, these two events, i.e. blowing the horn and hearing it, happen simultaneously.
As such, the Forsaken that do return upon being given the agreed-upon signal to retreat have to do so before the killing starts. The following page involving Anduin confirms that, for he sees multiple things - some Forsaken returning, some heading towards him, and Calia and Elsie arguing. He does not report any killing happening at that point. Thus, at least the first ones to head back do so before any killing occurs. I.e. they are obeying Sylvanas completely and to the letter.

It is only after that Anduin scene that we are shown Elsie still trying to tell Calia off, who then reveals herself to everyone. Elsie rejected her when the horn was blown, but Calia insisted she come with them. Don't get hung up on the "end of the discussion" thing. Elsie said "No thanks, goodbye", Calia pleaded to stay and Elsie allowed herself to be drawn into another round of arguments.

What do you mean "still"? The Anduin chapter was seeing the events from the same time period from a different perspective. After Elsie and Calia stop talking Calia turns to her to talk some more only to see her die before her eyes.

And even if they talked twice, or even twenty thousand times, what Anduin saw even before noticing people moving in direction of Stromgarde or Thoradin's Wall were Dark Rangers having already been deployed. As such, the Forsaken started to return not only after the horn, but after Sylvanas managed to get briefed on Calia, gave the order to kill based on that information and Dark Rangers already managed to mount up and fly at least some part of the distance.

Also, looping back to the "still" part, all that happened before Anduin hearing the horn and him seeing the Dark Rangers fly towards the Gathering was him having two bone aches and Genn and Velen make short remarks on his first bone ache.

Alas, I admit there's a possibility that Elsie and Calia talked the second time. And I admit I was wrong on Elsie dying immediately after, since there were a few other events that passed since then (~one page worth of them, but still).

But my point between the lines was that what Sylvanas did was not give the Forsaken enough time to retreat due to learning about Calia. Because even if Elsie didn't die immediately after she shouted for the Forsaken to retreat, your claim that Sylvanas' reaction was disproportionate, because she "simply decided that having been around Calia, even if not recognizing or even noticing her, is enough of a crime to kill even those that obeyed the retreat." is not entirely correct.

Not only did Sylvasnas have no way of knowing who recognized or noticed Calia or not, but the bats were already in the air before Anduin noticed people moving in reaction to the horn. Sylvanas gave the order before people started to retreat. So while Sylvanas indeed gave the order because of Calia, she didn't include "even those that obeyed retreat" in it, because those people didn't even exist yet when she gave it. And while she could theoretically preemptively include that in her order, it's unlikely. Nathanos would have heard that and as such wouldn't be surprised only when seeing the effects.

The point from the end of my post also stands. You yourself pointed out at least twice by now that the horn signal was an agreed upon thing and the Forsaken knew what it meant and how to react to it. Why would anyone be returning only out of fear if they started to return, i.e. act in a previously agreed manner in a reaction to a signal they knew would happen sooner or later, if they started to return before shit hit the fan?

[Kiri]

What do you mean "still"? The Anduin chapter was seeing the events from the same time period from a different perspective. After Elsie and Calia stop talking Calia turns to her to talk some more only to see her die before her eyes.

And even if they talked twice, or even twenty thousand times, what Anduin saw even before noticing people moving in direction of Stromgarde or Thoradin's Wall were Dark Rangers having already been deployed. As such, the Forsaken started to return not only after the horn, but after Sylvanas managed to get briefed on Calia, gave the order to kill based on that information and Dark Rangers already managed to mount up and fly at least some part of the distance.

Also, looping back to the "still" part, all that happened before Anduin hearing the horn and him seeing the Dark Rangers fly towards the Gathering was him having two bone aches and Genn and Velen make short remarks on his first bone ache.

Alas, I admit there's a possibility that Elsie and Calia talked the second time. And I admit I was wrong on Elsie dying immediately after, since there were a few other events that passed since then (~one page worth of them, but still).

But my point between the lines was that what Sylvanas did was not give the Forsaken enough time to retreat due to learning about Calia. Because even if Elsie didn't die immediately after she shouted for the Forsaken to retreat, your claim that Sylvanas' reaction was disproportionate, because she "simply decided that having been around Calia, even if not recognizing or even noticing her, is enough of a crime to kill even those that obeyed the retreat." is not entirely correct.

Not only did Sylvasnas have no way of knowing who recognized or noticed Calia or not, but the bats were already in the air before Anduin noticed people moving in reaction to the horn. Sylvanas gave the order before people started to retreat. So while Sylvanas indeed gave the order because of Calia, she didn't include "even those that obeyed retreat" in it, because those people didn't even exist yet when she gave it. And while she could theoretically preemptively include that in her order, it's unlikely. Nathanos would have heard that and as such wouldn't be surprised only when seeing the effects.

The point from the end of my post also stands. You yourself pointed out at least twice by now that the horn signal was an agreed upon thing and the Forsaken knew what it meant and how to react to it. Why would anyone be returning only out of fear if they started to return, i.e. act in a previously agreed manner in a reaction to a signal they knew would happen sooner or later, if they started to return before shit hit the fan?

Actually, we do not have any indication as to when the batriders are sent off in relation to the retreat call.

If we go by the book, then the horn sounding and calling the retreat happened in quick succession. That is something we agree on, yes?

Right before blowing the horn, Sylvanas states that she wants to find out if those moving towards Stromgarde are betraying her, so I would reckon that blowing the horn does not automatically trigger the killsquads.
The Anduin part is only really relevant because he does note the retreating Forsaken after the horn blows, but he does not note any bloodshed at that moment already. Granted, this is a bit fuzzy since, for dramatic effect I guess, he does not notice the approaching riders before they start the killing. However, he does note no killing while Calia and Elsie argue, so there is a point in time, after the horn sounded, where there is no killing, but forsaken are returning.

This makes sense since on Sylvanas' side, we have some events to go through. She sounds the horn, gets briefed and makes a decision. The call is not instantaneous, either, since she is asked for orders. We don't know how long it takes her to make the order. But what is important here is that these events did take at least some time, while the order to retreat on Elsie's side was given right away and Anduin, hearing the horn, saw people retreating towards the wall. The way it is written I really cannot see the order being given before people start retreating.

And it isn't like it does not fit. As you said, it is impossible for Sylvanas to tell whether or not these people had contact with Calia, whether or not they were retreating because they got cold feet (since they were not yet close enough to make a run for it, for example) or any other reason. That all would be in line with the Sylvanas we have been presented so far. I simply called this presumption of guilt disproportionate. Those people running towards the wall were no threat to her whatsoever, considering combat prowess or whatever. It would have been relatively easy to capture them and question them. But she chose to kill them. She looked at them having been close to Calia, having been part of the group that showed some acceptance to the living, having been friends or allies to those who betrayed them, and summarily sentenced them to death without giving them a chance to remotely defend themselves. That is her action. Even if you strip away everything else, it would still be cutting down unarmed civilians.

However, you do raise an interesting point regarding Nathanos.
He heard the order given to the riders. Yet he only starts asking "What are you doing?" after the killing starts. But wouldn't he have heard her tell the batriders to go and kill everyone? Why would he wait for the full time that it takes for them to mount up, fly out, and kill people, to say anything about this? It is specifically given a time stamp there - Nathanos question comes while screams of the dying could already be heard - so that is a bit odd. So, there are two options.

1) Nathanos heard the order but arbitrarily decided to only object once the killing started.
2) Nathanos did not hear at least that part of the order.

Now, option one goes against the characterization of Nathanos so far. He is intelligent. He is a military man. It is unlikely that he would be both confused enough by an order to ask Sylvanas about it in a strong tone, but also so disinterested that he would wait to do so. He is an experienced soldier, so he would have recognized that order, too. Option two on the other hand, well, he is not exactly bad at hearing. But it might be related to the order given. As the three sisters comic has shown us, Sylvanas is big on giving her dark rangers pre-arranged plans and only giving them a signal to execute them. These dark rangers are also disciplined enough to not get impatient or anything, and only attack pre-determined targets.
What if Sylvanas only gave them the signal to go....and killing everyone on the field was already the pre-set order?

[Reyuna]

We should have Jaina lead the Horde, after all she does things like slaughter Blood Elf civilians in Dalaran.

The Horde has been made weak for too long by a succession of Warchiefs (minus Garrosh).

I look forward to slaugthering every member of the Alliance I can.

[tristannarutofan]

We should have Jaina lead the Horde, after all she does things like slaughter Blood Elf civilians in Dalaran.

The Horde has been made weak for too long by a succession of Warchiefs (minus Garrosh).

I look forward to slaugthering every member of the Alliance I can.

it would help if yall could stop lying about things.

Almost all the Sunreavers (not blood elves) were arrested. a handful of sunreavers responded to their arrest by fighting back with lethal weapons (magic) and so Jaina and her guards responded to lethal force with lethal force.

Lor'themar literally tells her to release the prisoners from the violet hold

- - - Updated - - -

anyways, hearsay aside, its a good thing then that the current story is part of a pretty obvious attempt to turn the HOrde into good guys.

The horde were NEVER good people, because their allies were evil and they allowed them to do such evil things such as experiment on humanoids in cages.

With Garrosh hellscream one of the two evil factions (the orc nationalist/supremecists/nazis) rose to power and were defeated.

That leaves Sylvannas and her mass murder cult.

once she is forced to step down and Baine bloodhoof takes over the horde we will have an expansion or two of peace between the alliance and horde, seeing as the two leaders will be friends, Genn's prejudice is gone, Jainas legitimate trauma is dealt with, with 2 of the other leaders (tyrande and velen) having been the biggest diplomats between Horde and alliance, the tauren have always been good allies of the alliance and the orcs finally lead by their most reasonable members. the elves have been the most pro alliance faction and now the forsaken will be.
and each of the legion allied race has already worked well with the other faction.

The story has to progress. they cant make mass murderers who see the living as a disease, and a tool to be destroyed so you can make better tools, suddenly be 'good' for no reason. nor are they going to make an 18 year old whos always been a good person into some sort of crazed zealot.

the story takes time to go through especially in an MMO.

at the end of this both the horde and alliance will be 'the good guys"

stop judging a book (bfa) by the first few chapters.

its like saying harry potter sucks because there are no antagonist in the first chapter of the book

[Pum]

At this point the only thing to do is bring back somebody very cool from the dead to lead the Horde (not Vol'jin, he was like a troll version of Thrall if Thrall had no presence. I vote Cairne!

Yes! Saurfang remains in SW for a time, Thrall comes to SW to meet with him and Anduin and they bring back Cairne somehow so he can lead the Horde (as it should've been when he defeated Garrosh). Following ofc we have some father/son shit with Cairne/Baine. At this point Sylvanas' only real ally is Gallywix because of political expedience on his part and for the personal kerching$$$. Vol'jin senses Cairne's resurrection and appears before them with some voodoo shit after some time and instructs them to meet with Talanji and convince her to deny Zandalari cooperation with Sylvanas' Horde for an eventual peaceful coup.

Baine, Thrall and voodoo Vol'jin (speaking on behalf of Talanji) have a secret meeting with Lor'themar to agree a coup against Sylvanas' leadership. Not thinking or not certain if they could get any of the Forsaken (at least in significant numbers) to get involved, the Gathering proved a perfect opportunity to see if this could be achieved, so they all together met with the remaining Desolate Council and Calia, who agree. Saurfang and Thrall rally the Orcs. Of course they did not engage in secret meetings with such impunity, as Sylvanas' spies were able to divulge some movements of Thrall, Baine and Saurfang, however Cairne's resurrection was not discovered. The spies' details lead Sylvanas to believe that they were simply attempting to curry support for a leadership challenge, though she does make plans for a full blown coup.

As her war rages on, Baine et al. plan to use the aftermath of a specific battle (who knows what) to enact a full withdrawal of Orc and Tauren forces and supplies, while the racial leaders communicate to Sylvanas that they will not support her engagements as Warchief as they currently stand and she must change what she envisions for the Horde (which they have already anticipated she won't do, though it's important that she starts to feel somewhat alone so this can be a peaceful coup). She soldiers on convincing herself that she doesn't need the rest of them to crush the Alliance, however after a slew of embarrassing defeats against them, she agrees to meet Baine and Saurfang with the only intention to lie and make shallow concessions, as she believes that she can execute her strategies successfully with limited support from all factions (though she needs full from Lor'themar and Thalyssra, which she assumes she has).

Just before Baine and Saurfang arrive to meet Sylvanas, she receives word that there has been a full withdrawal of Blood Elf, Troll, and Nightborne forces from all outposts. She's spooked. Baine and Saurfang arrive and have it out with Sylvanas. Thrall arrives with Cairne, Lor'themar and Alyssra and the voodoo Vol'jin appears with them, explains that Cairne will pick up the mantle of Warchief and that she must banish herself to wherever and this is her only opportunity to do so peacefully. She feels cornered, but clings on to her mettle and nervously refuses. They tell her 'there is one more thing that you will forfeit...', but before they can finish Nathanos slithers in from somewhere and notifies her that more than half of the Forsaken forces have abandoned their positions to currently unknown locations. 'You are also no longer leader of the Forsaken', they finish. At that point Calia and the Desolate Council enter the room and Sylvanas completely shits the bed, realising exactly what is happening. Feeling truly alone, she agrees to the demands and banshee slinks off.

Okay that's it from me bye.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Have you ever seen a group of good guys call themselves the "Horde"? They have blood elves, orcs, trolls, goblins, undead, minotaurs, ogres(lorewise). They're not supposed to be the good guys.

[Super Dickmann]

Have you ever seen a group of good guys call themselves the "Horde"? They have blood elves, orcs, trolls, goblins, undead, minotaurs, ogres(lorewise). They're not supposed to be the good guys.

This is a difficult concept to grasp for some, hence why you come up with the kind of desperate fanfiction @Pum produced just above you.

[Pum]

This is a difficult concept to grasp for some, hence why you come up with the kind of desperate fanfiction @Pum produced just above you.

Just an idea, mate, I couldn't give much of any shits as to what happens I'm just playing the fuckin game and having a good time. Well done on being boring though, I'm sure your patronising ear piss is impressive to someone.

[Super Dickmann]

Just an idea, mate, I couldn't give much of any shits as to what happens I'm just playing the fuckin game and having a good time. Well done on being boring though, I'm sure your patronising ear piss is impressive to someone.

---snip---

Infracted.