More customization in the talent system

[Deleted]

Having 110 levels in the game with only 7 active talents at a given time gives leveling a totally dull feeling - unless you get lost in the amazing zone stories :-). I have given this much thought and I am 100% certain that the old talent trees need to come back in some form into the structure of our classes. I want to share with you my ideas about the class I play and spec I want to play the most in BfA and how the old talent trees ideology could make the current talent system much better.

The premise for the enhancement of our current talents requires all talents to have a 15 level gap between each other. So imagine that the first talent row to start at level 10 and the last talent row at level 100. Next imagine each talent has 3 specific perks with 5 ranks. Each level you get 1 perk point that you can invest.(starting with the level 10 when you get to choose first talent) However you cannot invest more than 15 perks in each talent row - so that it would not be a total mess, but nice progression.

Now the most important thing is that players would have a checkbox to automatically put all perks into the associated talent choices so the talent choice with all its 15 perks is the same talent as we currently have now.

Let me show you my ideas for Outlaw Rogue (please bear in mind that this is just an example I do not want to be Rogues an OP class and I have absolutely no experience in balancing the game in any way - I just want to demonstrate what could be done with this perk system)

Level 10

Weaponmaster - Sinister strike has additional 5% chance to strike additional time. The cost is increased by 5 energy and Sinister Strike deals 5% less damage
- 1st perk - 1/2/3/4/5% additional chance to strike additional time.
- 2nd perk - 1/2/3/4/5 reduced energy cost of Sinister Strike
- 3rd perk - 1/2/3/4/5% Sinister Strike damage increase
Quick Draw - Half-cost uses of Pistol Shot granted by Sinister Strike now have a 50% chance to generate 1 additional combo point, and deal 25% additional damage but the base energy cost of Pistol Shot is increased by 10 energy at all times
- 1st perk - 10/20/30/40/50% additional chance to generate 1 additional combo point from Half-cost uses of Pistol Shot
- 2nd perk - 5/10/15/20/25% additional damage from Half-cost uses of Pistol Shot
- 3rd perk - 2/4/6/8/10 reduced base energy cost of Pistol Shot
Ghostly Strike - 35 Energy, 60s cd, Melee Range, awards 1 combo point - Strikes an enemy dealing (80% of Attack power) physical damage and causing the target to take 5% increased damage from your abilities for 5sec.
- 1st perk - 1/2/3/4/5 reduced energy cost and 5/10/15/20/25 sec reduced cooldown of Ghostly Strike (if Ghostly Strike is not talented, then Adrenaline Rush has 5/10/15/20/25sec reduced cooldown)
- 2nd perk - 1/2/3/4/5% increased damage bonus buff (if Ghostly Strike is not talented, then Half-cost uses of Pistol Shot have 10/20/30/40/50% chance to get 1/2/3/4/5% buff for increased damage from your abilities for 10s)
- 3rd perk - 1/2/3/4/5 increased duration of the buff (if Ghostly Strike is not talented, then Adrenaline Rush duration is increased by 1/2/3/4/5 sec, but its cooldown is increased by 5/10/15/20/25 sec)

Level 25

Acrobatic Strikes - Increases the range on all your melee attacks by 1.5 yards. Also reduces the range of Pistol shot and Grappling Hook by 15 yards and reduces your movement speed by 5%
- 1st perk - increases the range on all your melee attacks by 0.3/0.6/0.9/1.2/1.5 yards
- 2nd perk - increases the range of Pistol shot and Grappling Hook by 3/6/9/12/15 yards
- 3rd perk - increases your movement speed by 1/2/3/4/5%
Retractable Hook - Reduce the cooldown of Grappling Hook by 15 sec and the range by 15yards. After getting to the target location you get 2sec penalty with 10% reduced movement speed
- 1st perk - reduce the cooldown of Grappling Hook by additional 3/6/9/12/15 sec
- 2nd perk - reduce the movement speed penalty by 2/4/6/8/10%
- 3rd perk - increase the range of Grappling Hook by 3/6/9/12/15 yards
Hit and Run - Increases your movement speed at all times by 10%. However the cooldown of your Grappling Hook is increased by 15sec and decreases the range on all your melee attacks by 1.5yards.
- 1st perk - increases your movement speed by 1/2/3/4/5%
- 2nd perk - reduces the cooldown of Grappling Hook by 3/6/9/12/15 yards
- 3rd perk - increases the range on all your melee attacks by 0.3/0.6/0.9/1.2/1.5 yards

Level 40

Vigor - Increases your maximum Energy by 10 (in the memory of old Vigor :-) ) and your Energy regeneration by 5%, but your finishing moves cost 5 more energy
- 1st perk - increases your maximum Energy by 8/16/24/32/40
- 2nd perk - increases your Energy regeneration by 1/2/3/4/5%
- 3rd perk - reduces the cost of your finishing moves by 1/2/3/4/5 energy
Deeper Stratagem - You may have a maximum of 6 combo points, your finishing moves consume up to 6 combo points, but the cost of all finishers is increased by 5 energy also you have 5% chance to loose all combo points when you get all of them
- 1st perk - reduces the cost of all finishers by 1/2/3/4/5 energy
- 2nd perk - increases the damage of all your finishing moves by 1/2/3/4/5%
- 3rd perk - reduces the chance to loose all combo points when getting all of them by 1/2/3/4/5% (if Deeper Stratagem is not talented then you have 1/2/3/4/5% chance to get 5 combo points after using a finisher)
Marked for Death - 30 yd range, 2min cooldown - Marks the target, instantly generating 5 combo points. Has a 50% chance to reset the cooldown if the target dies within 1 min. You deal 5% less damage to the marked target
- 1st perk - increases the the chance to reset the cooldown by 10/20/30/40/50% when target dies(if Marked for Death is not talented then all finishers have 1/2/3/4/5% chance to give maximum amount of combo points)
- 2nd perk - reduces the cooldown by 12/24/36/48/60 sec (if Marked for Death is not talented then increases the energy regeneration by 1/2/3/4/5%)
- 3rd perk - reduces the damage penalty to the marked target by 1/2/3/4/5% (if Marked for Death is not talented then increases the damage of all finishing moves by 1/2/3/4/5%)

Level 55

Iron Stomach - Increases the healing you receive from Crimson Vial, healing potions, and healthstones by 20%, but cooldown of Crimson Vial, healing potions, and healthstones is increased by 30sec. Also using Crimson Vial, healing potions and healthstones make you vulnerable to damage by 10% for 5 sec
- 1st perk - increases the healing by another 2/4/6/8/10%
- 2nd perk - reduces the cooldown of Crimson Vial, healing potions and healthstones by 6/12/18/24/30sec
- 3rd perk - reduces the vulnerability to damage by 2/4/6/8/10%
Cheat Death - Fatal attacks instead reduce you to 2% of your maximum health. For 3 sec afterward, you take 60% reduced damage. Cannot trigger more often than once per 16 min.
- 1st perk - increases the health you are reduced by fatal attacks by another 1/2/3/4/5%
- 2nd perk - the damage you take after triggering is further reduced by 5/10/15/20/25%
- 3rd perk - reduces the cooldown by 2/4/6/8/10 min
Elusiveness - Feint also transforms 20% of all damage into a bleed from non-area-of-effect attacks for 5 sec. The bleed ticks each second for 5 sec after feint ends for all damage it prevented. The cooldown of feint is increased by 10 sec
- 1st perk - increases the effectivenes for non-area-of-effect attacks by another 2/4/6/8/10%
- 2nd perk - reduces the damage of the bleed by 20/40/60/80/100%
- 3rd perk - reduces the cooldown of feint by 2/4/6/8/10 sec

Level 70

Dirty Tricks - Cheap Shot, Gouge, and Sap have their cost reduced by 50%. Also when someone is disabled by your abilities you take 5% more damage. The duration of these disables are reduced by 10%
- 1st perk - further reduces the cost of Cheap Shot, Gouge, and Sap by another 10/20/30/40/50%
- 2nd perk - reduces the damage you take when you disable enemy by 1/2/3/4/5%
- 3rd perk - duration of Cheap Shot, Gouge and Sap is increased by 2/4/6/8/10%
Blinding Powder - Reduces the cooldown of Blind by 15sec and increases its range by 5 yards. The duration is decreased by 2.5sec.
- 1st perk - further reduce the cooldown of blind by 3/6/9/12/15 sec
- 2nd perk - increase its range by 2/4/6/8/10 yards
- 3rd perk - increase the duration by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5 sec
Prey on the Weak - Enemies disabled by your Cheap Shot or Between the Eyes take 5% increased damage from all sources for 3.5sec. Also when someone is disabled by your abilities you take 5% more damage.
- 1st perk - increases the damage when enemies are disabled by your Cheap Shot or Between the Eyes by another 1/2/3/4/5%
- 2nd perk - increases the duration for the increased damage by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5sec
- 3rd perk - reduces the damage you take when you disable enemy by 1/2/3/4/5%

Level 85

Loaded Dice - Activating Adrenaline Rush has 80% chance to cause your next Roll the Bones to grant at least two matches. Duration of Roll the Bones buffs are reduced by 20% and chance for getting 2 matches is decreased by 10%.
- 1st perk - increases the chance for Adrenaline Rush to grant at least two matches by additional 4/8/12/16/20%
(if Slice and Dice is talented then it increases its attack speed by additional 2/4/6/8/10%)
- 2nd perk - increases the duration of Roll the bones (or Slice and Dice) by 4/8/12/16/20%
- 3rd perk - increases the chance for getting 2 matches by 2/4/6/8/10% (if Slice and Dice is talented then it increases its Energy regeneration rate by 1/2/3/4/5%)
Alacrity - Your finishing moves have a 10% chance per combo point to grant 1% haste for 10 sec, stacking up to 5 times
- 1st perk - additional 2/4/6/8/10% chance per combo point to grant buff
- 2nd perk - increases the bonus haste by 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8/1%
- 3rd perk - increases the duration of the buff by 2/4/6/8/10 sec
Slice and Dice - 25energy, Finishing move that consumes combo points to increase attack speed by 40% and Energy regeneration rate by 10%, Lasts longer combo point (9.6/14.4/19.2/24/28.8/33.6)
- 1st perk - increases the duration of Slice and Dice (or Roll the bonus) by 4/8/12/16/20%
- 2nd perk - increases the attack speed bonus by 2/4/6/8/10% (if Slice and Dice is not talented then it increases the chance for Roll the bones to get 2 matches by 2/4/6/8/10%)
- 3rd perk - increases the energy regeneration rate by 1/2/3/4/5% (if Slice and Dice is not talented then it increases the chance for Roll the bones to get 2 matches by 2/4/6/8/10%)

Level 100

Dancing Steel - Increases the duration of Blade Flurry by 3 sec, but increases the recharge time by 10sec and increases the energy cost by 45
- 1st perk - reduces the recharge time by 2/4/6/8/10 sec
- 2nd perk - increases the damage of Blade Flurry by 1/2/3/4/5%
- 3rd perk - reduces the energy cost by 9/18/27/36/45
Blade Rush - 10 yd, 2min cooldown - Charge to your target with your blades out, dealing x damage to the target and 50% to all other nearby enemies. Generates 25 Energy over 5 sec
- 1st perk - increases the range of Blade Rush by 2/4/6/8/10 yards(if Killing Spree talented then 1/2/3/4/5 yards)
- 2nd perk - reduces the cooldown of Blade Rush by 15/30/45/60/75 sec (if Killing Spree talented then 6/12/18/24/30 sec)
- 3rd perk - While Blade Flurry is active damage to non-primary targets is increased by 20/40/60/80/100%
Killing Spree - 5 yd, 4min - Teleport to an enemy within 10 yards, attacking with both weapons for a total of x Physical damage over 2 sec.
- 1st perk - increases the range of Killing Spree by 1/2/3/4/5 yards(if Blade Rush talented then 2/4/6/8/10 yards)
- 2nd perk - reduces the cooldown of Killing Spree by 24/48/72/96/120 sec (if Blade Rush talented then 2/4/6/8/10)
- 3rd perk - While Blade Flurry is active damage to non-primary targets is increased by 20/40/60/80/100%

If you read all of this, please remember that I did enjoy making it and it is a first draft - I barely kept in mind some things that need to be considered when doing these perk suggestions.

What do you think of this system? Would it be good or bad? Or do you think that having just 7 talent rows is more than enough? I would love to read your ideas about this.

[yjmark]

That is a really neat idea. However, for me personally, I don't want to have to deal with all that while leveling my toon. It basically means that you get a junk version of a talent until you fully flesh it out in 15 levels. Also, levels go pretty fast, and having to stop and click on 1/2/3/4/5% stuff every level so you don't gimp yourself is not super exciting (imho).

This is the same reason I like heirlooms - I don't really enjoy stopping, reviewing a new piece of armor to see if it is an upgrade, etc... At max level, those kinds of things are pretty engaging and fun for me because you are actually working toward certain gear. While leveling....not so much because you know it will get replaced pretty fast.

That's just my personal playstyle though. To each their own. I would be willing to deal with it if it made lots of other people really enjoy leveling again, thus making the leveling process better for everyone.

[vVBlackwolfVv]

That is a really neat idea. However, for me personally, I don't want to have to deal with all that while leveling my toon. It basically means that you get a junk version of a talent until you fully flesh it out in 15 levels. Also, levels go pretty fast, and having to stop and click on 1/2/3/4/5% stuff every level so you don't gimp yourself is not super exciting (imho).

This is the same reason I like heirlooms - I don't really enjoy stopping, reviewing a new piece of armor to see if it is an upgrade, etc... At max level, those kinds of things are pretty engaging and fun for me because you are actually working toward certain gear. While leveling....not so much because you know it will get replaced pretty fast.

That's just my personal playstyle though. To each their own. I would be willing to deal with it if it made lots of other people really enjoy leveling again, thus making the leveling process better for everyone.

I think its a great idea but here Yjmark has a good point too, i think in the later game we could have somekind of customization, at least in legion we had artifacts etc etc, and now we have the azeroth hearth in someway, in the early levels could work an extra or 2 talents, from base 7 to 9 for example so the feeling of emptiness between levels is not that harsh or maybe every 10 levels, the problem is the next expansion and so on, u cant add forever.

[Deleted]

That is a really neat idea. However, for me personally, I don't want to have to deal with all that while leveling my toon. It basically means that you get a junk version of a talent until you fully flesh it out in 15 levels. Also, levels go pretty fast, and having to stop and click on 1/2/3/4/5% stuff every level so you don't gimp yourself is not super exciting (imho).

This is the same reason I like heirlooms - I don't really enjoy stopping, reviewing a new piece of armor to see if it is an upgrade, etc... At max level, those kinds of things are pretty engaging and fun for me because you are actually working toward certain gear. While leveling....not so much because you know it will get replaced pretty fast.

That's just my personal playstyle though. To each their own. I would be willing to deal with it if it made lots of other people really enjoy leveling again, thus making the leveling process better for everyone.

That is why I have the option to let you have the perks autofill if you dont want to deal with them (autofilled perks make the talents exactly the same as they are now on live), but basically you can choose any combination of the 45 perks in each row so for example I can have talented Quick Draw with its 1st perk to have 100% to have 2 combo points when Pistol shot procs and at the same time I have 1st and 2nd perk from Weaponmaster perks for cheaper SS and higher proc chance as well.

What I tried to point out is that it would be amazing to gimp some talents in a certain way only to improve them in another. While at the same time easily providing the same easy to choose talents as we have now

[Pandragon]

The only difference between the old talent system and the new one is an illusion of reward, which is what this idea is as well. I'd rather the talents be impact and actually do something. Not just give a 1% damage increase.

A customization for talents would be to have them alter a specific ability in some way beyond just doing more damage, like the Runes in D3. They can completely change how an ability works. Take Lashing Tail kick for monks. You can have one rune cause the frontal damage of it be completely around you instead, or have it send out a tornado of fire in a straight line.

[Mirishka]

Having 110 levels in the game with only 7 active talents at a given time gives leveling a totally dull feeling - unless you get lost in the amazing zone stories :-). I have given this much thought and I am 100% certain that the old talent trees need to come back in some form into the structure of our classes. I want to share with you my ideas about the class I play and spec I want to play the most in BfA and how the old talent trees ideology could make the current talent system much better.

The premise for the enhancement of our current talents requires all talents to have a 15 level gap between each other. So imagine that the first talent row to start at level 10 and the last talent row at level 100. Next imagine each talent has 3 specific perks with 5 ranks. Each level you get 1 perk point that you can invest.(starting with the level 10 when you get to choose first talent) However you cannot invest more than 15 perks in each talent row - so that it would not be a total mess, but nice progression.

Now the most important thing is that players would have a checkbox to automatically put all perks into the associated talent choices so the talent choice with all its 15 perks is the same talent as we currently have now.

Let me show you my ideas for Outlaw Rogue (please bear in mind that this is just an example I do not want to be Rogues an OP class and I have absolutely no experience in balancing the game in any way - I just want to demonstrate what could be done with this perk system)

If you read all of this, please remember that I did enjoy making it and it is a first draft - I barely kept in mind some things that need to be considered when doing these perk suggestions.

What do you think of this system? Would it be good or bad? Or do you think that having just 7 talent rows is more than enough? I would love to read your ideas about this.

So a bunch of boring 1/2/3/4/5% talents would somehow make this 'totally dull feeling' exciting and fresh for you?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

The only difference between the old talent system and the new one is an illusion of reward, which is what this idea is as well. I'd rather the talents be impact and actually do something. Not just give a 1% damage increase.

A customization for talents would be to have them alter a specific ability in some way beyond just doing more damage, like the Runes in D3. They can completely change how an ability works. Take Lashing Tail kick for monks. You can have one rune cause the frontal damage of it be completely around you instead, or have it send out a tornado of fire in a straight line.

Honestly I still feel like the only reason talents have hung on this long is there's an emotional attachment to the term Talents both on the Dev Team and in the Playerbase.

You bring up D3 runes, and honestly I think Glyphs by the end were having a greater and more fun impact on my spells than talents ever were. I'd said for many expansions that Blizz should expand Glyphs while all they did was contract and ultimately remove the system. While at the same time they continue to fuddle with talent revamps because they can't admit that Talents are, at their core, a flawed system.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

This is an interesting idea. I like the idea. I think in practice you might struggle to get an implementation that is easy to balance. While there is certainly less choice or variety in the current system, balance is probably the best it has ever been. I can imagine that depending on how talents were set up, you'd get some super broken combinations.
It also has the potential to reduce meaningful decision making. More options is not necessarily always a good thing. If you have too many options, it makes it harder to figure out what combination feels good, or indeed which is most effective.
The cookie-cutter build problem is exacerbated when you have more options-it means there are more "trap talents" and more players have to go outside the game to look up which talent is better. With fewer options, the better balance means it's rare to get such traps, or at any rate they're far less impactful. The more ways you can go "wrong", the more it matters if you pick the "wrong" talents, since your mistakes compound on top of each other.

That said, I would be in support of a similar system just to spice up levelling, where every few levels you get a new rank of your talents, similarly to how you get new ranks of spells. That might fill the gap that they've got at the moment where you gain very little in the way of new stuff as you level up.
There was a lot of disagreement in that post, but if they were able to balance it I think that would be great, but history has not indicated that they can. Players always find clever combinations that break everything.

[skumnasty]

Talents are fine. Your increase with level is new gear, new abilities, and every 15 levels a talent. The entire "I need to click a little box every level to feel like I'm getting stronger" mindset is the problem

[jazen]

I miss the old talent trees where you could hybrid build. Was it always optimal? No, often it was suboptimal. But the point of a game isn't min/max, it is to be enjoyable. If some folks want to have a hybrid build that isn't great at anything, let them. It would only impact those in casual content, as the 'serious' players would optimize whatever is given.

[Deleted]

So a bunch of boring 1/2/3/4/5% talents would somehow make this 'totally dull feeling' exciting and fresh for you?

Honestly - it would. I prefer doing many small steps that work in unison instead of one big step.

Also quite a lot of legion weapon small traits are like that and I loved them at launch. Getting enough artifact power for a new trait felt amazing.

I thought of this perk system as a tradeoff system - where you make some talents worse only to make them better in a different way. This is my idea of what it could look like - it could also work as 1perk per 5 levels. However if you don't like the perks then just have them autofill for you so they might never bother you. This is why I made the talents intentionally weaker - so the perks would just undo the nerf. So if people don't want to bother with perks then they don't have to.

[yjmark]

That is why I have the option to let you have the perks autofill if you dont want to deal with them (autofilled perks make the talents exactly the same as they are now on live), but basically you can choose any combination of the 45 perks in each row so for example I can have talented Quick Draw with its 1st perk to have 100% to have 2 combo points when Pistol shot procs and at the same time I have 1st and 2nd perk from Weaponmaster perks for cheaper SS and higher proc chance as well.

What I tried to point out is that it would be amazing to gimp some talents in a certain way only to improve them in another. While at the same time easily providing the same easy to choose talents as we have now

I missed the autofill section. Sorry about that. That would definitely help take the edge off for me.

And I completely agree that tweaking your talents to improve them could definitely be a fun and engaging activity. If you don't care to super optimize it, then just let it autofill with some default settings. Neat suggestion