PvP depth: okay. PvE depth: not okay

[styil]

Why is it okay for players opting into PvP to have several additional layers of talent options over players opting into PvE? It seems hypocritical to suggest that adding new abilities is untenable yet at the same time provide these additional talents to a significant portion of the game (e.g. PvP, world content, etc).

When is Blizzard going to reconcile this inequality?

[Svetox]

Why is it okay for players opting into PvP to have several additional layers of talent options over players opting into PvE? It seems hypocritical to suggest that adding new abilities is untenable yet at the same time provide these additional talents to a significant portion of the game (e.g. PvP, world content, etc).

When is Blizzard going to reconcile this inequality?

Because PvE is faceroll and easy while pvp requires more choices since it's dynamic play

[Smoe]

Lots of reasons but mostly balance. It's far easier to balance a bunch of different classes if the only metrics are DPS, HPS, and Survivability across each role. It's not as easy to balance all of that together across every single class and spec. That's why they introduced the pvp talents as an extra way to balance the classes (so they can tweak the pvp talents without messing everything up for the pve crowd).

Another reason is because it is a way to balance out the time wasted for people who are in war mode ganking each other when they would otherwise be leveling. They want people to enjoy war mode without feeling like they're being penalized for enabling it. One way they do this is with a small exp. boost but they can't have this boost be too large or people will feel like they have to engage in war mode even if they don't want to. That's why they added the pvp talents to further speed leveling but not overtly state it. It still just evens things out by the calculations of Blizzard but doesn't make other players feel like they have to enable war mode.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

The PvP talents don't add much depth, just functionality. Classes designed to function in a PvE environment often struggle in PvP, so changes are necessary.

[SNES-1990]

The PvP talents don't add much depth, just functionality.

Not sure you and me are playing the same game.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Not sure you and me are playing the same game.

We might not be playing the same class. There's not much depth in "Call Dreadstalkers is now Instant Cast," it just means you can actually cast it ever.

[Deathquoi]

Adding something like Honor talents for PvE wouldn’t make any sense at all. I don’t understand why some players look at this shit like a zero sum game. “Reeeeeee PvPers get a couple extra talents needed to make spells viable in PvP, that means I’m missing out!!!!!”

[Jigglypuff]

Before Honor Talents existed, before they began pruning and you had a spellbook filled to the rafters, a PvP player would make greater and more extensive use of the array of abilities at his disposal. For example a tbc era frost mage would use rank 1 frostbolt to apply a snare because it had a shorter cast time even though it did little damage, arcane missiles on an enemy about to try to use a pillar to LoS, armor spells depending on the opponent, etc. PvP that many players enjoyed was mainly due to its dynamic nature

Since the prune began in WoD, it should be no surprise that it was the PvP playerbase that was far more vocal in criticising Blizzard. Their solution was honor talents, a way to add abilities that make PvP more dynamic, a way to add abilities that would be cool in PvP but too powerful in PvE.

Their inclusion now to extend to open-world content is part of an incentive package for world pvp specifically since it is an area of the game they have neglected for too long and was an absolute shambles in Legion.

[WurstKaeseSzenario]

3 additional talents that barely change pve gameplay but the downside is you can get attacked by other players.

"several additional layers of talent options"
"depth"
"new abilities"
"significant portion of the game"
"content"

[Nutrition]

Pve has rather large extremes of depth...the issue is its reserved for the highest of the high end. There are people who hit very,very close to what their maxed sim dps is even in fights requiring a lot of movement. Most players don't for instance pour over logs to figure out when they could squeeze in one more frostbolt rather then ice lance durning heavy movement. Same with classes that use energy building and spending not many players properly pool energy without wasting it.

[glowzone]

When is Blizzard going to reconcile this inequality?

Considering how much resources raiding takes up compared to the rest of the playerbase I'm not sure you can get away with that line.
(I don't mind that raiding takes it up, I'm just saying)

[Deleted]

We might not be playing the same class. There's not much depth in "Call Dreadstalkers is now Instant Cast," it just means you can actually cast it ever.

Way to pick the prydaz of pvp talents.

If you don't think having a dispel, silence, fel lord, 3 different curses or a spell reflect adds functionality, I don't know what to say. But sure, pick out the one that makes a spell an instant cast. Good fucking grief.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Way to pick the prydaz of pvp talents.

If you don't think having a dispel, silence, fel lord, 3 different curses or a spell reflect adds functionality, I don't know what to say. But sure, pick out the one that makes a spell an instant cast. Good fucking grief.

It's functionality, not depth. To me when you talk about the depth of a class it's interactivity between spells and decision making, though to be fair I am mostly a PvEer, so I may be way off.

[Usernameforforums]

Why is it okay for players opting into PvP to have several additional layers of talent options over players opting into PvE? It seems hypocritical to suggest that adding new abilities is untenable yet at the same time provide these additional talents to a significant portion of the game (e.g. PvP, world content, etc).

When is Blizzard going to reconcile this inequality?

Doesn’t matter. If you opted for pvp then you’re on the same scale as everyone else in terms of choice and vice versa. There isn’t much of a increase in damage or survivability, pve vs pvp. Yes you get more choices but do you get ganked in pve? Nope. It’s balanced out in that regard.

[Aeula]

Because Blizzard can't understand why people don't like being ganked. So they offer them incentives so that gankers have something to do.

[infinit]

When is Blizzard going to reconcile this inequality?

Kidding right? PVP has largely been an afterthought by blizzard for the last 14 years. Think about how much PVE content there has been compare to PVP.

this expansion could come with 5 new arenas and 5 new BGS and it would still be miles behind PVE

[Re4leader1]

They're just desperately trying to get people in to pvp. But people dont care about wow pvp its not wrath anymore. They need to focus on more and better pve content. Also focus on make sure content works before they send it out

[Deleted]

Oh please.

First world problems

Yeah PvP has more talents. Maybe because otherwise NO ONE would do it.

[Spazlord]

It seems obvious to me, and maybe it's just me, that WoW is both a PVE and PVP game. You can even PVP at all, without engaging in at least some PVE content. IMHO, you shouldn't be able to engage in PVE content without also engaging in PVP content. But apparently some people, for reasons, don't like PVP. If you need to play World of Cuddlecraft, you should accept that you are deliberately cutting your own content. Your choice. You don't wanna. Boohoo.

Personally, I would prefer it if the classes retained all of their utility in both scenarios, I like the PVP talents, and I would use them in PVE. Having disarm and spell reflect etc, would bring extra depth to playing a PVE warrior, we used to have them and it meant you could bring better plays in a PVE dungeon. You could straight up tank mobs for a time, that would otherwise one shot you. In BC heroics, when the trash was diabolical, these talents were instrumental in reducing the damage on a tank such that you didn't wipe on a dodgy pull. When everyone had these talents, dungeons were a more dynamic experience.

However, I can also see that when everyone has ridiculous utility, you can trivialise PVE content, to the point where it's hard to balance it in such a way that it remains difficult for good players while not being impossible for bad players. If we all had PVP talents in mythic+, they would have to be tuned around the fact that you probably had a disarm, you probably had a HP reduction that could be used on a boss, you probably had ridiculous kiting abilities.

So perhaps the talent split is a good way of approaching it. Extra utility for PVP, and a more level playing field in PVE.

Now if you want extra utility while leveling, you can have it by choosing warmode. Noone is stopping you, but you better be OK with getting your posterior handed to you with some regularity, because the world is a dangerous place and people will press your face into the ground if you're questing in their space. They will outnumber and gank you silly. They will call their friends and start a big fight in your quest hub and slay every red bar on their screen.

You don't wanna? Don't. But leave your complaints at the door, cause nobody has any sympathy for someone who hamstrings themselves and then cries unfair.

[Sastank]

Because PvE is faceroll and easy while pvp requires more choices since it's dynamic play

ZOINKS PvP is harder than PvE argument y i k e s .