How come that literally 90% of classes feel like utter shit right now?

[Jeina]

All the people who say they're all worse at 120:

How do you have so much free time?

[Jastall]

Fury is the ****ing bomb right now. I'm loving it SO much.

I'm pretty sure it's the one spec I've not seen anyone speak of negatively. Not surprising since it's basically Legion Fury (which was really good on its own) with pretty much every single change that needed to happen to it.

[Benomatic]

We don't have our azerite specs yet though?

[hulkgor]

What changes on 120 except we're even worse than on level 110 because of scaling?

The talents you get from the gear? Those will be significant as hell. Maybe you missed that.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't have our azerite specs yet though?

Sshhh, let them continue to mindlessly whine.

Same thing happened on Legion pre-patch, until we actually got the Artifact traits.

It's just the typical circle jerk.

[Mirishka]

I've done LFR on all of my healers: MW, H.Pally and R.Druid - I gotta say, healers don't feel much worse. I do miss moving as MW and R.Druid, but all in all I like the new MW more than the old version.

As far as DPS goes...well, I think A LOT of specs can use some work. The worst being Shadow Priest, by far. Marksman Hunter feels MUCH better to me, though. I absolutely love the new Marksman. I got my Fury Warrior to 101 and I'm loving it. Mage specs don't feel bad, either. Outlaw rogue feels fine.

The ones that feel bad are the sluggish ones or the ones who feel like they lost purpose. Shadow priest is chief among them. I don't like Arms Warrior, but I've heard other people do, so meh. I don't like Feral, but I didn't like it in legion very much either so there's that. Affliction feels like it's hitting like a wet noodle. DK specs just feel sluggish, now - especially frost.

PVP-wise, pretty much everything feels awful. WW lost its burst, affliction lost most of its umph, Most casters have no real way to escape mongoloid melee leaping on their face, Warrior is the most mobile class in the game right now(Why? Double charge double leap 6 seconds of sprint on a 30 sec cd...just why), not to mention the MASSIVE gear disparity.

My fingers are crossed but I'm not hopeful for the start of this xpac.

Anecdotal of course, but while on my gnome afflic lock I utterly murdered a horde mage attacking SW last night. It was glorious!

[Themerlin]

Once you get the specific Azerite traits in gear and get to lvl 120 (will take about a month or so), with 25+ on Heart of Azeroth, most of the bitching about classes will cease.

There are certain classes that will outplay others, but that has always been the case.

[Jeina]

Once you get the specific Azerite traits in gear and get to lvl 120 (will take about a month or so), with 25+ on Heart of Azeroth, most of the bitching about classes will cease.

There are certain classes that will outplay others, but that has always been the case.

Nah, there'll still be plenty of bitching. Mostly from the people who don't play anymore and get their opinions secondhand.

[Deleted]

It's because WoW is no longer an RPG. There is no character progression, there is regression.

It's more similar to a MOBA where heroes get tuned and retuned all the time. There is literally nothing new from level 100 to level 120 character wise. You just level and get 0 talent points/new spells for it. You only get some azerite, which will ofc be taken away by the next expansion.

Instead of building classes in complex ways, block by block on top of the last expansion, everything is reset to the minimum and started over. I understand the concern of bloating, but how the hell are interesting passive artifact traits considered bloat? There were so many interesting mechanics in that. Moving during tranquility, Astral Shift also healing you, Vandetta shooting poison daggers at the target, Time and Space for double Arcane explosions, etc. etc. Nothing of those takes any ability space.

[Themerlin]

Nah, there'll still be plenty of bitching. Mostly from the people who don't play anymore and get their opinions secondhand.

Most classes play fine on Beta. In the beginning when leveling my DH, I was pissed since it seemed so broken and really played like crap. Over the course of leveling and gearing up and the small beta changes on the class, its "fine" now. Not necessarily the best, like legion level, but fine.

I am loving the warlock, and mage on Beta.

Despite that I will still main my DK, frost plays great at 120, good numbers in general and always fits my playstyle and feel I want.

Shadow Priest I have heard feels like crap in general without the Azerite traits, that is still secondhand ...

[infinitemeridian]

Wow, I didn't realize Shadow Priests and Guardian druids = 90% of classes!!

[Otimus]

The way Blizzard thinks people should play the game, the way high end players play the game, the way casual players play the game, and the way the general middle actually play the game are all at war with one another.


Generally speaking, this is the cause of almost all of WoW's problems from now til around the beginning.

[Themerlin]

It's because WoW is no longer an RPG. There is no character progression, there is regression.

It's more similar to a MOBA where heroes get tuned and retuned all the time. There is literally nothing new from level 100 to level 120 character wise. You just level and get 0 talent points/new spells for it. You only get some azerite, which will ofc be taken away by the next expansion.

Instead of building classes in complex ways, block by block on top of the last expansion, everything is reset to the minimum and started over. I understand the concern of bloating, but how the hell are interesting passive artifact traits considered bloat? There were so many interesting mechanics in that. Moving during tranquility, Astral Shift also healing you, Vandetta shooting poison daggers at the target, Time and Space for double Arcane explosions, etc. etc. Nothing of those takes any ability space.

I play the game not for Goku to reach Super Saiyan Quadrillion Blue Silver Monkey Power level, but for the amazing art and feel to the game. The team participation ingrained into it as well. It is a continuous story.

The whole, "more powerful than others" is the addictive part of it.

I am sure they will clean up the classes eventually. I for one am ready for a break.

[glowpipe]

Its fine. For the first time in years i can actually see whats going on in the raid. See what the boss is doing for once instead of heavily watching my bars and timers.

[Spiffums]

Because everything is "tuned" for lvl 120.

[Teph]

Once you get the specific Azerite traits in gear and get to lvl 120 (will take about a month or so), with 25+ on Heart of Azeroth, most of the bitching about classes will cease.

There are certain classes that will outplay others, but that has always been the case.

Nearly every single azerite trait won't change anything you do. The most impact full one i have seen is, that you cast a starfire before wrath.
Nothing will change from now to 120 besides that you will have less crit/haste etc.

[MoanaLisa]

I've had this theory about what's wrong with class design that most people consider BS but if you think about it for a while it makes a certain sense.

Most classes these days are over-engineered, mathed-out to the nth degree and carefully built to fit into the game in as close-fitting a way as possible. Once all of that is done there's not a lot of room left for what we might call by various words: fun, soul, creativity, inspiration.

It's what happens to a lot of things when engineers design to fit to some specific tolerance with layers and layers of complicated math underlying it.

I realize people here are writing about specific things that are wrong with their favorite classes but I just think there's some element of class design that has gone completely missing or is buried totally under the math and spreadsheets.

The comment about waiting until you're at 120 is also correct. You never really know how a class will actually play against the game until you get to 120 and start to deal with difficult content at that level. But the other bit I wrote about I think explains why classes and to some extent the game itself is less fun. It's not engineered to be really a game but a solution to a complicated math problem.

[Harbour]

I can't wrap my over the fact that almost every class in Legion, moreover - every spec - felt juicy, with defined and clear identity, but Blizzard somehow managed to ruin all of that sucking the juice out of almost every spec and class. It feels like they said "Fuck all we did, lets do shit!", and then they did shit.

[Jeina]

I've had this theory about what's wrong with class design that most people consider BS but if you think about it for a while it makes a certain sense.

Most classes these days are over-engineered, mathed-out to the nth degree and carefully built to fit into the game in as close-fitting a way as possible. Once all of that is done there's not a lot of room left for what we might call by various words: fun, soul, creativity, inspiration.

It's what happens to a lot of things when engineers design to fit to some specific tolerance with layers and layers of complicated math underlying it.

I realize people here are writing about specific things that are wrong with their favorite classes but I just think there's some element of class design that has gone completely missing or is buried totally under the math and spreadsheets.

The comment about waiting until you're at 120 is also correct. You never really know how a class will actually play against the game until you get to 120 and start to deal with difficult content at that level. But the other bit I wrote about I think explains why classes and to some extent the game itself is less fun. It's not engineered to be really a game but a solution to a complicated math problem.

I can agree. Trying to make all 36 specs roughly equal while remaining unique and fun to play is a problem no engineer can solve.

[zeropeorth]

Somehow they managed to loose all classes identity in process of creating classes identity.
Maybe they chasing popular "4 button moba" or "console" gameplay, but indeed, this is sad days for mmorpg.
Players rolling alts just because they are bored from main to find out that all classes are pretty much the same.
Our judgment of classes and specs are literally based on Simcraft.
Gearing process in BFA are as dumb as comparing two integers.
This is just disgusting.

The team has been playing a lot of guild wars 2; but not the mage-type one, as that has some way of changing spell type on the fly so it isn't just around 5 abilities, but more like 5 abilities but able to change into fire, frost, and arcane while in combat? been a long time.

I do think your statement is a bit hyperbolic; and mine is a bit tongue in cheek. I do not feel my warlock is the same as my druid nor my demon hunter. I still sense some class identity, but I am not comparing pure melee classes against each other so I'll leave room in your statement for that possibility that classes I've never been drawn to might feel similar (say dk and warrior?).

BfA will feel super slow and dumbed down for a lot of people who have been playing a while; and exponentially so if end of Legion is their only experience of the game. You lost artifact ability and traits, will lose the two legendary item modifiers, ability trimming, talent changes. It is a big one. I've said to people since I got in beta months ago, that people are going to be missing Legion like you have people nostalgic about Wrath/BC/Vanilla, and for some Mists. This change is going to be a shock to some even more so than pre-patch because we lost some, and will lose more, with nothing tangible in return. Azerite at most does very minor changes, and most of the time is purely passive with no affect to gameplay.

I think most people will adjust/adapt over time; but they need to keep up with things very closely and make adjustments to pacing if needed. imho, they should do something (and both be viable) akin to how frost aura or whatever it was for DKs in wrath that reduced gcd/increased the pace of gameplay; so you could have a long gcd or a short one. Also making sure on the talent rows there is a passive for some, and at least one that affects priorities/procs/extra buttons to press in some way.

I also look at xpac development (and I believe it was stated in the past) as an A team/B team deal. So every other xpac now will 'feel' different, and for me, after BC it would be Wrath good, Cata bad, Mists good, WoD bad, Legion good, BfA to be decided, but the trend/outlook for me is not looking well and Beta so far unfortunately backs this up for me personally.

I want reforging back. I want gear choices instead of just equipping ilvl. I think secondary stats should matter, as your main stats is 'boring'. Secondaries change gameplay/feel. Want to run super fast on havoc for farming old content, stack mastery (lost 21% run speed in prepatch 140%->119%), does haste feel better for you for whatever reason (lower gcd, getting spells down to gcd, fights with movement where high haste might mean extra hard casts, etc) ... those things have meaning/value more than ... hey, this is +5 ilvls and the main stat increase is significant and the secondaries are mediocre, so I guess I'll just equip it ... not engaging or thought provoking at all.

The sky isn't falling, but it seems it will feel dreary for some, for some time.

[ryklin]

honestly as far as how my class's feel, most of them are way better than they were in 7.0, especially 7.0 pre-patch
Seriously 7.0 was probably the worst any class has ever felt, almost every spec's best talents were the ones with the least active buttons too...
That said though, we feel about how we felt with no or shitty legendaries or with only the first 35 traits, and as far as what's already coming in uldir and bfa, not much is going to change that right away.