Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[eschatological]

It wasn't the plan, but it was the right thing to do. The Bombers were in position to attack, and the way they were depicted, they were slow and cumbersome. No idea if they have a hyperdrive or not, but they were in position to strike when Leia recalled them, which would have meant that they had to be turned around and escorted out of combat, which would have probably cost them their lives anyhow. Furthermore, as Poe Damron said, they are fleet killers. If left intact, the Dreadnought would have presented a problem in the near future, making all operations with capital ships more difficult. They were in attack position and traded bombers for something that could have taken out any of their capital ships in a single blow. Poe did the right thing in a terrible situation.

I don't know if you can argue it was the right thing to do. Presumably they had planned this enough beforehand that they were confident in the bombers ability to retreat - or at least confident that it would be more successful than trying to assault the Dreadnaught itself (which it obviously would have been, seeing as they lost every single bomber, and only managed to kill the Dreadnaught with incredible luck and some plot armor which took the first 29 bombers in seconds and then kept missing the 30th).

Regardless of the debate of "was it right," you don't get to disobey superior orders unless your superior orders you to do something illegal. Retreating certainly isn't illegal. No military in the world would tolerate a commander second-guessing a general's tactics. Frankly, Poe should have been court-martialed, and probably would have been if it wasn't an all-hands-on-deck sort of situation.

[Skulltaker]

I don't know if you can argue it was the right thing to do. Presumably they had planned this enough beforehand that they were confident in the bombers ability to retreat - or at least confident that it would be more successful than trying to assault the Dreadnaught itself (which it obviously would have been, seeing as they lost every single bomber, and only managed to kill the Dreadnaught with incredible luck and some plot armor which took the first 29 bombers in seconds and then kept missing the 30th).

Regardless of the debate of "was it right," you don't get to disobey superior orders unless your superior orders you to do something illegal. Retreating certainly isn't illegal. No military in the world would tolerate a commander second-guessing a general's tactics. Frankly, Poe should have been court-martialed, and probably would have been if it wasn't an all-hands-on-deck sort of situation.

In a regular army, probably. The Resistance is no such army: They're an iregular force to begin with. As far as I recall, the (new) Republic deliberatly distanced themselves from the Resistance, even though they unofficially supported them greatly. But that's technicalities.

Poe might have disobeyed orders, but these orders were dumb to begin with. The Rebellion, as well as the Resistance, has always improvised, relied on their field commanders. The position he finds himself in is not his fault, anyway, nor is it General Organas fault, it's the writers. No military commander of sound mind would have ordered the heavy, slow bombers there to begin with, not Poe, who's presented as one of the most brilliant fighters when it comes to ship-to-ship combat, aswell as a seasoned CAG (borrowing that term, but it fits rather well I think), and not General Organa or Admiral Ackbar, who've decades of experience in that matter and have bested the imperial Navy time and time again. Not if the aim is a quick retreat, harassing and crippling the capital ships so the fleet can withdraw. X-Wings with Proton Torpedoes could have just as easily pestered the enemy capital ships and then jumped out on their own, because they definitly have Hyperdrives, even the new T-70 versions - see Force Awakens. Why would you take your slowest and most vulnerable ships, put them in front of the enemies biggest guns, if you don't intend for them to actually do what they were bult for?

Of course, if you need another conflict, because one of your main characters disobeyed orders, even though what he did was perfectly sound and probably saved their collected asses (nothing he could have known at the moment, of course), then it makes perfect sense to portray both sides of the conflict as complete morons that couldn't command a fighting force to save their lives, literally. If the commander of the Star dreadnought hadn't been a screaming moron, he would have blown the Raddus out of the sky with his first salvo, and the movie would have been considerably shorter.

[Skulltaker]

Poe wasn’t operating as a field commander. The orders also weren’t stupid.

Yes, he was, he was in command of the fighter squadrons. And yes, they were. Both the fact that they were positioned in the fron tlines if the goal was to escape, and the order to withdraw them when they were already on their attack run.

[eschatological]

-snip-

This wasn't some operation though. No military commander may have organized this as an assault on a Dreadnaught - but that's not what it was. It was a diversionary tactic to get them away after the FO found their rebel base. This was them beating a hasty retreat, and needing a distraction to get out. Hell, the whole dumb Poe diversion was simply to get all the ships in the air and off the ground. It was a plan that literally saved boots on the ground, and every ship got off the ground.

Then Poe co-opted the bombers, who, as far as I can tell, didn't have actual orders in the plan except to be a show of force until they got out of there.

[LedZeppelin]

Wonder whos gonna throw the nu emperor down a pipe thing

[Skulltaker]

Sorry, but he was a squad commander not a field commander. You’re confusing military terms. And aborting a run isn’t an invalid order when the cost is greater than the benefit.

First of all, the Resistance isn't a military, they're a paramilitaric organization. But that's allright, seeing how field commander isn't a military term at all. Second of all, the rank he held during the evacuation, and from which he was then demoted, was that of Wing Commander. So yes, he was in command of all their fighters and bombers, which were, at that time, all the forces in the field - the capital ships were all in the rear and didn't participate in the battle. He was the highest ranking officer engaged in battle.

As for the orders, it was dumb to have Bombers participating in the attack in the first place if your aim wasn't to destroy a target. It was even dumber recalling them. If the attacking craft were fast and nimble, I'd agree, aborting would be a valid choice. But they weren't. They were slow and cumbersome and would have been destroyed in the first place. The one to blame here are, of course, the writers, as neither Damron, nor Organa nor Ackbar are stupid enough to have these ships participate in the first place.

[Skulltaker]

This wasn't some operation though. No military commander may have organized this as an assault on a Dreadnaught - but that's not what it was. It was a diversionary tactic to get them away after the FO found their rebel base. This was them beating a hasty retreat, and needing a distraction to get out. Hell, the whole dumb Poe diversion was simply to get all the ships in the air and off the ground. It was a plan that literally saved boots on the ground, and every ship got off the ground.

Then Poe co-opted the bombers, who, as far as I can tell, didn't have actual orders in the plan except to be a show of force until they got out of there.

Poe organized the attack, Leia sanctioned the plans. If the goal was distraction, again, involving the bombers makes no sense. All commanders the Resitance had at his point would have known that. If Poe improvised the bombing run, then Leia Organa would have trusted him to make the right call, as he is by far the most experienced Fighter Pilot they have. And he's good enough to judge the situation correctly. So it once more boils down to the writers creating drama out of nowhere for the sake of confrontation later on. He might not have succeded with the attack, but even then, Leia would have said 'you made an hones mistake, it happens to the best of us.' She would not have pulled slow and already engaged elements out of a fight, not when they're about to strike. It makes no sense.

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It’s almost like the field commanders knew better than the squad commanders...

Yeah, but he was Wing Commander. So it was his call to make. Maybe you should read up on it befor you try to participate, hm?

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You’re the ne who tried to apply miitary structure buddy. I just followed your shit logic. The order was sound. Moron thought he was smarter than those commanding him. He wasn’t.

Dude, you didn't follow anything. All you said was "No it wasn't', without presenting any argument. As usual, you just proceed to embarass yourself by trying to participate in a discussion without having any facts to back your claims up. He also saved their lives.

[dwightyo39]

I'm getting a bad feeling it's going to end up with force ghost Luke battling a force ghost Palpatine. It's jumped the shark enough already.

That would almost be as epic as the duel between Eggshen and Lopan in "Big Trouble in Little China".

[Fayolynn]

Destroying the Dreadnought was neither the plan nor did it save the fleet. It was a reckless decision that cost them all their bombers. The plan was to jump to hyperspace and lose them, a quick hit and run with minimal losses.

The hyperspace argument is tired and re-treaded. It's like looking at kamikaze attacks and suicide bombers and asking, "Why hasn't anyone thought of this brilliant tactic before???" and "Why don't more people do this now???" and then disregarding the massive destruction of resources like a cruiser, and the situation where you could turn to ram a ship without them actively targeting you because they're targeting something else.

And I definitely criticized the Finn/Rose beam cannon thing.

The dreadnought was literally called a fleet killer in the movie. Left alone it would have been in the pursuit fleet and taken out the resistance during the chase. Poe orders saved the fleet hands down. Those bombers were dead regardless because the fleet would have been doomed. This is just an example of shitty writing, if they wanted Pie to be unquestionably wrong then he should have taken out a low value target instead. Looking at it from another angle, the bombers chose to ignore orders as well and followed through with the attack because they looked at the situation and decided he was right.

You are looking at the hyperspace ramming from the absolute wrong angle. If you are worried about resources then taking an asteroid and turning it into a ram is so much cheaper then building a capital ship. You need an engine, thrusters, guidance computer and maybe some shields. You can take out big ships with almost no cost to your side. As far as them "actively targeting you" while you try to ram this is a none issue. Multiple times throughout starwars we have seen massive ships firing at each other to no immediate effect. It takes moments to aim the ram and then jump to hyperspace.

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What is funnier is American fans asking seriously why the Rebels don' t do more kamikaze attacks. It's impossible to be that blind.

It's not a kamikaze attack if you use an asteroid with an engine attached to it.

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It's hilarious you're arguing he could assess the situation correctly when his entire arc was about him NOT assessing situations correctly until the very end.

That is a fault of the script. The script made the dreadnought waaaay to valuable of a target to pass up and the also had him succeed with his attack. Want him to be wrong, ha e the ship he attacked be nothing special, ha e the attack fail or both. Having him attack a ship described as a fleet killer and succeeding then trying to claim he was wrong is just bad writing.

[Xath]

I know you don't get it, but shelling 150 USD Lego sets or not does not means anything about the movie quality.

Again this isn't about movie quality it's about failing to sell merchandise to a group of fans that will literally buy action figures of a 15 second background character. That is not a commerical success. You can like the movie but it's divisive and hurt the brand.

[Th3Scourge]

Oh wow there are still people defending the Disney dogshit bastardization? You are the reason they keep churning out this crap.

[eschatological]

Poe organized the attack, Leia sanctioned the plans. If the goal was distraction, again, involving the bombers makes no sense. All commanders the Resitance had at his point would have known that. If Poe improvised the bombing run, then Leia Organa would have trusted him to make the right call, as he is by far the most experienced Fighter Pilot they have. And he's good enough to judge the situation correctly. So it once more boils down to the writers creating drama out of nowhere for the sake of confrontation later on. He might not have succeded with the attack, but even then, Leia would have said 'you made an hones mistake, it happens to the best of us.' She would not have pulled slow and already engaged elements out of a fight, not when they're about to strike. It makes no sense.

What evidence do you have that Poe planned the attack, and Leia "just sanctioned it"? She literally says, "That's not the plan," when he insists on attacking with the bombers, which seems to suggest the people on the bridge came up with the plan.

What evidence do you have that the bombers couldn't have easily disengaged and jumped to hyperspace?

Your point about the results (that he saved their lives) is disingenuous and out of context, because at the time, they had no idea the Fleet could track them through hyperspace. If anything, that's the shitty writing, where Poe's recklessness is justified by a contingency that was considered literally impossible. But I guess the writer (IE Rian Johnson) had to drum up some drama for the rest of the movie in re: the pursuit.

The dreadnought was literally called a fleet killer in the movie. Left alone it would have been in the pursuit fleet and taken out the resistance during the chase. Poe orders saved the fleet hands down. Those bombers were dead regardless because the fleet would have been doomed. This is just an example of shitty writing, if they wanted Pie to be unquestionably wrong then he should have taken out a low value target instead. Looking at it from another angle, the bombers chose to ignore orders as well and followed through with the attack because they looked at the situation and decided he was right.

Again, see above. No one knew that they could be tracked through hyperspace. That's why the plan was to jump into hyperspace once they got all the ships off the ground. It was, in the Star Wars universe, a literal impossibility to track someone through hyperspace until that moment. Even Snoke didn't know it was possible, which is why he appears on the command ship in bighead form to berate Hux, and then later is congratulating him when Hux explains.

You are looking at the hyperspace ramming from the absolute wrong angle. If you are worried about resources then taking an asteroid and turning it into a ram is so much cheaper then building a capital ship. You need an engine, thrusters, guidance computer and maybe some shields. You can take out big ships with almost no cost to your side. As far as them "actively targeting you" while you try to ram this is a none issue. Multiple times throughout starwars we have seen massive ships firing at each other to no immediate effect. It takes moments to aim the ram and then jump to hyperspace.

It's not a kamikaze attack if you use an asteroid with an engine attached to it.

What? Are you serious? You realize asteroids aren't just sitting around for the retrofitting, right? What's your suggestion, that they somehow tow an asteroid into orbit around Yavin to serve as a potential ramming device at some point? And draw attention to their secret base by making the extremely suspicious astrological event of an asteroid skimming a planet so perfectly that it ends up in orbit instead of impacting/shooting by? Asteroids don't just float stationary in space, yanno.

That is a fault of the script. The script made the dreadnought waaaay to valuable of a target to pass up and the also had him succeed with his attack. Want him to be wrong, ha e the ship he attacked be nothing special, ha e the attack fail or both. Having him attack a ship described as a fleet killer and succeeding then trying to claim he was wrong is just bad writing.

I agree, having the ship reinforce his behavior by having the rest of the FO fleet (which isn't a "fleet killer") track him through space is sloppy. The narrative, however, required A) that Poe acted recklessly against orders which were made to preserve the Resistance rather than all-or-nothing a fight against a superior fleet, B) that he live through that recklessness to eventually grow to be the leader the Resistance needs, and C) that in spite of his recklessness, they're still in danger. If we were being hyperrealistic, he would have either died in that attack like every single one of the bombers he risked, or they got away with his recklessness and he didn't learn a lesson. That's, in particular, why I wanted Finn to drive into that beam cannon. Poe had learned the lesson, ordered Finn to retreat, and Finn refused. Him dying would have been a harsh lesson for Poe about the stupidity of his earlier actions, while at the same time making Finn think he's heroic by sacrificing himself, and further ramming the subversive nature of the film home (that his sacrifice would have meant absolutely nothing).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Oh wow there are still people defending the Disney dogshit bastardization? You are the reason they keep churning out this crap.

Being the reason they keep putting out starwars content seems like a positive.

[sarahtasher]

Oh wow there are still people defending the Disney dogshit bastardization? You are the reason they keep churning out this crap.

When you live through ''The Crystal Star'' ''Dark Empire'' and ''Planet of Twilight'' you take stuff with philosophy.

[Krastyn]

What? Are you serious? You realize asteroids aren't just sitting around for the retrofitting, right? What's your suggestion, that they somehow tow an asteroid into orbit around Yavin to serve as a potential ramming device at some point? And draw attention to their secret base by making the extremely suspicious astrological event of an asteroid skimming a planet so perfectly that it ends up in orbit instead of impacting/shooting by? Asteroids don't just float stationary in space, yanno.

You aren't thinking nearly creative enough. There are a bunch of possible scenarios:
- The asteroid doesn't need to orbit the planet. It just needs to be in the system. Many systems have asteroid belts.
- You can use old, derelict ships.
- You can basically build a flying shell.

All it needs is mass. It doesn't need lights, seats, life support, or 90% of what a ship needs. Just a drive, targeting computer, and maybe shields even those are optional.

And this is still looking at it all through the lens of the rebellion. The Empire could easily build ships to do this. Or anyone at war.

It has a massive economic bang for its buck.

[PACOX]

The dreadnought was literally called a fleet killer in the movie. Left alone it would have been in the pursuit fleet and taken out the resistance during the chase. Poe orders saved the fleet hands down. Those bombers were dead regardless because the fleet would have been doomed. This is just an example of shitty writing, if they wanted Pie to be unquestionably wrong then he should have taken out a low value target instead. Looking at it from another angle, the bombers chose to ignore orders as well and followed through with the attack because they looked at the situation and decided he was right.

You are looking at the hyperspace ramming from the absolute wrong angle. If you are worried about resources then taking an asteroid and turning it into a ram is so much cheaper then building a capital ship. You need an engine, thrusters, guidance computer and maybe some shields. You can take out big ships with almost no cost to your side. As far as them "actively targeting you" while you try to ram this is a none issue. Multiple times throughout starwars we have seen massive ships firing at each other to no immediate effect. It takes moments to aim the ram and then jump to hyperspace.

The dreadnought is only a 'fleet killer' if the fleet just sits there. Its was a flying glass cannon WW2 artillery guns. All they had to do was jump. Poe's stunt allowed them (the Resistance) to get tagged and later bagged.

You don't ram stuff at hyperspeed in SW because

1) It's extremely difficult. You have to get danger close to your target, home girl would have been shot down if the FO wasn't being arrogant. Then you wait until your computers plot a trajectory that sends you through your target right before you slip into hyperspace. The Raddus didn't take out the ship it hit either, she just made it limp. The impact did create a shotgun effect that took out some of the ships behind the Supremacy but you wouldn't see ships lined up like that in an actual battle. If you mess and you hit the ship too slow to do any real damage or zoom right past it. This all correlates to why Japanese kamikazes were ineffective after the shock of them wore off.

2) Hyperspace full is extremely expensive. During the Galactic Civil War (Ep 4-6). The Rebels couldn't afford to throw fuel away like that. Fuel that could be used for pilots and capital ships that proved a lot more effective. The Resistance is a privately funded venture that has fewer resources than that of the Rebel Alliance facing a more formidable foe. We literally saw them run out of fuel in the movie. They wouldn't be able to afford to throw fuel away like that either.

3) The CIS tried to use suicide tactics and failed most of the time.

[sarahtasher]

In a more constructive way, I will give an example of the problem that appeared very early on Star Wars. Remember that Simpsons episode with Poochie, in which the kids ask at the same time new stuff and to keep the show the same (Ralph provide the more helpful comment by eating his buzzer)

That's the same problem. Any idea diverging too much from ''ANH'' is meet with hostility by some fans, who at the same time cry it's the same.

Rocks are going to be thrown at me, but why I endorse the ST is not because I'm ''SJW'' (I can confirm you that SW is not remotely left leaning when seen from normal countries), but because they did THE thing that should have been done as soon as ''Heir to the Empire'' : move away from the characters of the movies, that you can kill, that are hard to use post-Endor and that does not offer much room pre-Endor.

For instance, the ''classic'' era of SW, the stuff people want, is the Rebellion against the Empire. The big three fights incompetent admirals. Voilà. (There was two superb Zahn novels about it). Issue us, you can't go very far with it, since the evolution of the characters between ANH and ESRB is pretty limited.

One serie that I really liked was ''The Black Storm Crisis'', who tried to be different yet was shackled with ''being like the movies'' . The premise is that space talibans, down with the space turban, overthrow an Imperial garrison and keep the loot for them, using it to launch a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the local cluster. Okay, it's not terrible, but its not ''Imperial finds a superweapon'' and it features almost realist combat-the space talibans have odd ship designs, but quite functional ones.

Why it fails ? You need to find stuff to do with the characters of the movie
-Luke goes on a completely pointless errand to find his mother. It's not pointless because of the idea itself, it's pointless because everyone damn knew he was not going to find her, and after the Phantom Menace, it was even worse
-Han, following a sad course throughout the EU, is the fifth wheel of the carriage. He is promoted commodore and immediately captured and tortured by the space Taliban
-Leia have the role of the commander-in-chief with the (logical) issue that her colleague ask if she is fit to command, for the whole ''video of her husband being beaten savagely by the space Taliban''. While it's LOGICAL that the politician is trying to solve issues with senatorial support instead of taking potshots at the space Taliban, this is as exciting as it sounds.
-In a way that still baffles me, Lando and the droids engage in a completely unrelated plot, presumably because they were needed on the contract or padding. The sad thing is that this a ''Rendez-vous with Rama'' esque tale that is fairly unique and quite interesting.
-Exception, Chewbacca have a completely kick-ass rescue sequence in which he speaks first-person. It also introduce back his son, you know, the character in the Holiday Special…

(I used this book for a reason, that is for people crying about another plot point of TLJ : thinks Luke force projection is OP ? You have not seen the Falanaassi, space buddhist nuns)

[Th3Scourge]

Being the reason they keep putting out starwars content seems like a positive.

No content is better than this crap

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No content is better than this crap

It really isn't.

[Th3Scourge]

It really isn't.

I think the majority of the SW fan base would prefer TLJ never existed. So yes, it really is.