Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Darththeo]

Obi Wan training Anakin was extremely unusual you know that right? The council largely acquiesced because of Qui-Gon's sacrifice. Knights who took on pupils while still Knights usually continued working with their master while doing so the only reason Obi Wan didn't is because Qui-Gon was dead. We can actually see evidence of this when Anakin takes on Ahoska while still working with Obi Wan. Again Leia wasn't a master and Rey's progression in the force is an absolute joke especially in TLJ.

Except, we don't always see Knights constantly working with Masters ... the Clone Wars even shows that. Seriously, there is an entire episode when Kit Fisto meets up with his former Padawan now Knight and it wasn't played off as "this is expected."

For Anakin still working with Obi-wan, I always felt that was more to play into Anakin's attachment issues.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

silence cur, this is how i operate.

What a terrible way to have an discussion.

[Xath]

Well, then Luke has no moral flaws either ... so the argument Rey is "morally" perfect as a reason to dislike the character has zero value.

Luke believes in the innate goodness of everyone which gets him in trouble a lot. But more importantly having a single issue doesn't make a character a mary sue it's having all of them which Rey does. Luke loses and has to be saved a lot really that's the entire story of the trilogy. Luke about to get blown up by Vader Han saves him. Vader cuts off hand Luke falls down chute and calls for Leia to save him. Before that Han saves him from freezing to death. In Return Anakin saves him after he tells the emperor he won't be turned and palps says die then, thus allowing Anakin to snap back and save his son. The entire story of the OT is luke failing over and over and over but getting saved. Anakin is not a good character in terms of power he also has crazy progression not as fast as rey but still. Anakin is largely saved from being a Gary Stu due to his impulsive anger and hotheadness which leads him into multiple situations where he loses first to Dooku then to Obi Wan.

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I'd argue Luke never won a lightsaber duel.

He didn't the closest was when he roid raged out on the dark side but even that was largely because Vader wasn't trying to kill his son.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I would disagree on this point. Obi Wan had been watching Luke his entire life. To such a degree that Luke knew him on first name basis. I don't know that there's any canon descriptions of this, but I would have to assume that Kenobi had subtlety been guiding Luke his entire life, if only to avoid the same mistakes he made while training Anakin.

as far as canon goes obi-wan was guarding luke but he didn't guide him at all. he tried to reach out a few times but his uncle shot him down so obi-wan stopped trying after a while and just stayed in the area till luke came to him in ANH. post ANH luke finds obi-wans diary and and that leads him to some stuff but he never actually learns form force ghost obi-wan, what he gets in ANH is the extent of what obi-wan actually teach's him.

yeah....I don't know about that comparison. Luke was there long enough to show distinct improvement, and was being trained by an 800 year old head of the entire Jedi order, as well as being a master at teaching. Comparing Leia to Yoda is.....oof. Not good. Even if they spent the exact same amount of time training, Luke would have gotten a LOT more out of it.

eh its kinda two fold. yoda could teach luke alot about using the force but because of his age he wouldn't be able to do alot of hands on training. leia on the other hand should still be able some hands on stuff if luke is any thing to go by and rey had the old republic books to learn other force stuff from. I wouldn't say they were equal but likely not to far apart.

True that. At least Kylo has SOME background and build-up(which was thrown out the window in TLJ with snoke).


Oh well, like I said. I'm just going to try and pretend these movies never happened. Hopefully Mandalorian stays sharp, and the next set of Star Wars movies we get is in the Old Republic or something, completely separate from the trainwreck.

with this last one the movie's are at the same place as the old post return EU for me which is not a good place. I was hoping that coming off TLJ they could salvage something but given that TROS is just dark empire but with worse characters it failed that hope.

[Darththeo]

No, Luke didn't really have flaws in RoTJ. That was the biggest problem with that film along with the Endor shit and why it is rightly considered the worst of the OT.

Except, Jedi is considered by many to be better than ANH and next to Empire is listed often by people as their "Favorite Star Wars movie". A lot of people flop between the two as well. So it isn't "rightly considered" the worst.

[Kithelle]

nothing i said was a lie.

Luke trained for a about year, vader had multiple wars under his belt and was the best duelist/force user in the galaxy baring palp. luke is literally on the level of the best fighter in the galaxy in a year or so. purely due to his genes.

as to rey beating kylo within the context of how starwars/the force works it makes perfect sense and the guard fight is nothing unless they were force capable as force users just out place none force users in every thing from strength to speed.

rey's a god awful character but criticizing her on things that make sense in the starwars universe just devalues actual criticism of the short comings they did with her.

Except you lied...he didn't beat Vader in ESB, fact you need to lie so blatantly just wreaks of total desperation to try and make a shit character sound less shitty.

[Darththeo]

Luke believes in the innate goodness of everyone which gets him in trouble a lot. But more importantly having a single issue doesn't make a character a mary sue it's having all of them which Rey does. Luke loses and has to be saved a lot really that's the entire story of the trilogy. Luke about to get blown up by Vader Han saves him. Vader cuts off hand Luke falls down chute and calls for Leia to save him. Before that Han saves him from freezing to death. In Return Anakin saves him after he tells the emperor he won't be turned and palps says die then thus allowing Anakin to snap back and save his son. The entire story of the OT is luke failing over and over and over but getting saved. Anakin is not a good character in terms of power he also has crazy progression not as fast as rey but still. Anakin is largely saved from being a Gary Stu due to his impulsive anger and hotheadness which leads him into multiple situations where he loses first to Dooku then to Obi Wan.

You still don't understand a Mary Sue is, nor do you understand Rey. If I want to talk to a wall, I will.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He didn't beat him though? He tapped into the rage of the dark side and basically roid raged on it. Vader's power was significantly reduced after what he went through and he also had inner conflict as we saw when he threw Palps over the edge to his death w/e retcons may say.

Using the dark side is still beating him and vader's power was never reduced he only gets better and better at every thing post episode 3. sure the conflict comes into play but even that he's the best in the galaxy he should have had no problem given the vast amount of experience he had.

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Rey constantly beating Kylo is a joke. She doesn't take a heroes journey because she starts at the summit then climbs into the stars to become basically a god.

Rey only actually beats kylo twice, on starkiller there are a ton of factors and on the death starweckage he beats her to the ground before getting detracted. both make sense but that doesn't mean either are good and i agree she doesn't have a hero's journey which is one of her huge problems he doesn't develop at all.

[Darththeo]

I'd argue Luke never won a lightsaber duel.

And I could use similar logic to argue Rey never won a lightsaber duel. The duel with Kylo ended after a chasm opened up and she won on the Death Star wreckage because Leia involvement. Therefor, Obi-wan and Anakin are the only hero characters to win a lightsaber duel in any movie.

Qui-Gon ran away and was killed. Obi-wan defeated Maul.
Obi-wan and Anakin are defeated by Dooku. Yoda and Dooku fight to a stalemate causing Dooku to flee.
Obi-wan is knocked out by Dooku, Anakin defeat him (could argue that Palpatine helped him). Obi-wan defeats Grevious (arguably could not be counted). Mace Windu doesn't win because Palpatine let him "win" to help turn Anakin. Sidious beats/stalemates with Yoda. Obi-wan defeats Anakin.
Obi-wan sacrifices himself to Vader.
Vader defeats Luke.
Luke doesn't win because of giving up to the Dark Side.

See? I don't care if you dislike Rey ... I am just expecting consistency.

[Deletedaccount1]

Except, Jedi is considered by many to be better than ANH and next to Empire is listed often by people as their "Favorite Star Wars movie". A lot of people flop between the two as well. So it isn't "rightly considered" the worst.

By who exactly? On lists made by critics, you see frequently see Empire as among the best films ever made. Occasionally you see the original Star Wars on there. You don't see Jedi on there. It has a ton of problems but is still a decent film. Bringing back a bigger Death Star was unoriginal and the fact that it had the same weakness as the first one was even more unoriginal. The Ewok fight against the Stormtroopers where they throw rocks at them was dumb. The whole Ewok part of the film goes on for way too long. The Jabba part of the film was cool but ultimately irrelevant to the overall story since all it accomplishes is rescuing Han. The Emperor and Vader trying to seduce Luke to the dark side when it was obvious he was uninterested in power undercuts the main driver of the plot.

It is middling compared to the first two films. Empire is literally a perfect movie, the original Star Wars was close to one.

[Darththeo]

By who exactly? On lists made by critics, you see frequently see Empire as among the best films ever made. Occasionally you see the original Star Wars on there. You don't see Jedi on there. It has a ton of problems but is still a decent film. Bringing back a bigger Death Star was unoriginal and the fact that it had the same weakness as the first one was even more unoriginal. The Ewok fight against the Stormtroopers where they throw rocks at them was dumb. The whole Ewok part of the film goes on for way too long. The Jabba part of the film was cool but ultimately irrelevant to the overall story since all it accomplishes is rescuing Han. The Emperor and Vader trying to seduce Luke to the dark side when it was obvious he was uninterested in power undercuts the main driver of the plot. It is middling compared to the first two films.

Are we talking critics or fans?

Critics you are clearly right ... Fans ... yeah, no so much.

Also, I can only seem to find polls on what is your favorite Star Wars movie, rather than a ranking of all of them. ANH is clearly more people's favorte than Jedi is, but that doesn't really tell you which is more liked overall.

Empire is my favorite movie of the entire thing ... it isn't perfect.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except you lied...he didn't beat Vader in ESB, fact you need to lie so blatantly just wreaks of total desperation to try and make a shit character sound less shitty.

Where do you see ESB in the post you quoted? I said he beat vader with about a year of training, he didn't train for a year in ESB.

[lonely zergling]

After only seeing like 18 minutes of the ending on youtube I'm glad I didnt go to watch this in cinema. I thought people are overreacting but its really that bad. Not even gonna download this shit, not worth the risk.

[Deletedaccount1]

Are we talking critics or fans?

Critics you are clearly right ... Fans ... yeah, no so much.

Also, I can only seem to find polls on what is your favorite Star Wars movie, rather than a ranking of all of them. ANH is clearly more people's favorte than Jedi is, but that doesn't really tell you which is more liked overall.

Empire is my favorite movie of the entire thing ... it isn't perfect.

A lot of Star Wars fans continue to defend the prequels so I really care less about what they think compared to people who are actually well-versed in analyzing films.

[Darththeo]

A lot of Star Wars fans continue to defend the prequels so I really care less about what they think compared to people who are actually well-versed in analyzing films.

I disagree, because there are a lot of films critic panned but are decent films and films critics love that aren't really watchable. Critics are people, with their own tastes. But, if that is how you define it fine, just don't act like it is gospel.

[Sondrelk]

A lot of Star Wars fans continue to defend the prequels so I really care less about what they think compared to people who are actually well-versed in analyzing films.

Defending the prequels is easy because the problems with them are surface level. The acting being atrocious and the effects not being that great.
What the prequels to have however is a well crafted story ripe for analyzing if you look past the acting. A deep and somewhat complex tale of the fall of democracy, the moral decay of the jedi and the fall of Anakin from freed slave to the sith Darth Vader.

Meanwhile the sequels look good on the surface, but don't really have much substance beneath to back it up. Like many popcorn flicks before it you enjoy it while you are watching it, but on closer inspection there isnt much there.

[Darththeo]

Defending the prequels is easy because the problems with them are surface level. The acting being atrocious and the effects not being that great.
What the prequels to have however is a well crafted story ripe for analyzing if you look past the acting. A deep and somewhat complex tale of the fall of democracy, the moral decay of the jedi and the fall of Anakin from freed slave to the sith Darth Vader.

Meanwhile the sequels look good on the surface, but don't really have much substance beneath to back it up. Like many popcorn flicks before it you enjoy it while you are watching it, but on closer inspection there isnt much there.

How you described the sequels is literally an argument I have heard against the prequels.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Adopted sister, they are not related. Not so stupid now?

you dont have sex with your sibling

[Kokolums]

[Sondrelk]

How you described the sequels is literally an argument I have heard against the prequels.

I suppose you could argue the reverse as to why the Sequels are good. My point is rather that i have yet to hear someone try to explain the grand narrative vision that drives teh sequels that are supposed to carry them. So far i have just heard a bunch of people who like them, which is not wrong or anything, just not really grounds for any deeper discussion.