Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Skulltaker]

What are you talking about ? They are obviously building momentum to make a powerful strike. /s

In case you're not being serious: For them to build up momentum, the blade would need a mass. It has none, though.

What's the difference with the original trilogy duels? I mean, it's in the nature of that kind of weapon to rarely hit. Because when it does, you usually lose a limb. I believe the sequel is the first time we actually see someone get only superficially wounded by a lightsaber.

Well, the original trilogy was, first of all, hampered by technical difficulties. In New Hope, a) one of the combatants is a senior citizen, and b) George Lucas had that dumb idea of Lightsabers being rotating silver... things. I don't know how to describe it. The saber had to have a cable connection for the motor in the handle to be operated. You can actually still see it in a few shots with Alec Guinnes. Also, if I recall what Dave Prose said, he could barely see in his Darth Vader get up, and it was difficult to keep balance.

In Empire, the fighting picks up drastically. It's still not as fast paced as the newer movies, but still, a lot closer to what we know of light saber duels these days. The fighters act more as if they are in a japanese sword fighting movie. Each stroke is carefully considered, a lot more probing the enemy. It's a different fighting style. They go even more action in Return, but even there, there are longer intermissions.

In the Prequels they go in balls deep. Running at each other, wildly hacking away. Count Dooku has a lot of the old fighting style, with many gracefull deliberate moves and a lot less meaningless hacking away. But the only time the characters pause in Phantom Menace or Revenge is when they are actually seperated, otherwise it's one long patched together choreography. You have one moment of suspense, with the famous Darth Maul shot, and then it's just non-stop action. With cutaways to Pandalilly and little Orphan Annie.

[minteK917]

The only intense lightsaber fight star wars ever had was vader vs luke in empire. Because vader is just toying with him. Everything else looks and feels like total jokes, from eldery man waving a stick to CGI people making useless 1080 flips and twirls which would get them instantly killed by someone that decided to actually use their weapon as a cutting object and not target the enemy sword.

[PACOX]

OT and ST saber fights are superior to any live action PT fight. Not even a debate.

Lucas sucked at directing, which is why his fight scenes are ass. The only decent one was with Maul, and that's only because RPJ is exceptional.

[eschatological]

-snip-

I'm not into the EU or anything, so I had to look up some stuff. "Ataru" style was first mentioned in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: Visual Dictionary. Which came out in 2002, right before AotC. Which means it was made up purely for the shit fest we were about to see, and in part to retroactively describe Qui-Gonn's fighting style in TPM. That's not the understanding we had of lightsabers - not in the OT at least.

And there is a distinct focus on calling Jedis "knights", and the lightsaber an elegant reminder of a forgotten age. Even after Alec Guinness was no longer waving lightsabers, Luke in ESB vs. Vader is a deliberate, slow style, both of them using two hands, lightsabers clashing together and holding there, etc. The same was true in RotJ. Maybe you want to write off the ANH duel as Guinness being old, but the theme of that fight was also readily apparent: Obi Wan wasn't looking to defeat Vader, he was looking to parry, offer a distraction for Luke, and ultimate make Vader strike him down. Even if Alec Guinness was 25 and the Vader suit was flexible and could be seen out of, and the technology better, I guarantee that fight plays out similarly to ESB/RotJ, except less rage because Luke isn't involved.

[Kokolums]

The prequel fights are dances with glowsticks, where they never strike at their enemy, just their weapon. They look completely fucking ridiculous.

It's why we got this kind of bullshit;

It makes sense to me that a fight between Kenobi and Anakin would look like that. Both are masters at the top of their game. They struggle to even find an opening and sometimes the battle enters a massive anticipation loop where they each see the others moves coming and adjust to parry eternally instead of striking, to the point where they are locked spinning their sabers without touching, trying to break through.

[Endus]

It makes sense to me that a fight between Kenobi and Anakin would look like that. Both are masters at the top of their game. They struggle to even find an opening and sometimes the battle enters a massive anticipation loop where they each see the others moves coming and adjust to parry eternally instead of striking, to the point where they are locked spinning their sabers without touching, trying to break through.

You should watch some sparring matches between actually-skilled swordsmen. They look nothing like that stuff, because that spinny bullshit means you're deliberately giving your opponent an opening when your weapon cannot be brought to bear to defend yourself.

Hell, just watch olympic saber fencing or kendo. See how often they put their sword behind their backs, in either sword art, with entirely separate origins. Kendo in particular was a source they pulled most of the ideas for OT saber combat from. And before you say "but these are Jedi, with better reflexes and strength and speed than normal people", I'll point out that applies to both attacker and defender, and amounts to a wash.

[Shadowferal]

*nods* A pity we'll never get to know the light saber combat forms.

It really is appalling how badly the Council has allowed dueling techniques to deteriorate. No style. No elegance."
―Dooku

Form I, also known as Shii-Cho, The Way of the Sarlacc, or The Determination Form
Form II, also known as Makashi, The Way of the Ysalamiri, or The Contention Form
Form III, also known as Soresu, the Way of the Mynock, or the Resilience Form
Form IV, also known as Ataru, the Way of the Hawk-Bat, or The Aggression Form
Form V, also known by its two primary disciplines of Shien and Djem So, as well as The Way of the Krayt Dragon or The Perseverance Form
Form VI, also known as Niman, the Way of the Rancor, the Moderation Form, and the diplomat's form
Form VII, also known as Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr, or the Ferocity Form

[PACOX]

Puts on Boomer hat

This is one of the best fights in SW history.



Miss me with the PT garbage.

[Endus]

I like how you're over here talking about how there's different rules and different science and different this and that in the SW universe and therefore other peoples criticisms are dumb and don't apply.

But then on something you don't like you break out, "BUT...BUT...IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!"

Because on the one hand, people were claiming Newtonian physics applied to non-Newtonian forms of FTL travel, and then completely fucking up the Newtonian physics to boot.

And in the latter, I'm talking about the idea that moving your weapon out of any potential use as a guard or attack is a stupid thing to do in a fight.

Plus, I'm not arguing that Jedi "can't do that", I'm just saying it looks ridiculous. My comment on this point is aesthetic.

[ConstantinetheGreat]

You did the same thing with the fallout 76 thread. Game was trash and is rightfully in the bargain bin being ignored now but for months you defended it telling people why they were wrong for not enjoying that masterpiece now you're doing the same with low quality star wars films.

I’m not convinced he actually likes the movie, as he vacillates between defending the film outright, to just claiming it’s problems are also present in the originals and therefore our objections can only be because we’re racists, sexists, etc. etc. The movie is just a proxy for his personal ideology and he’ll defend it to he death even if it’s cinematic garbage.

[Endus]

I’m not convinced he actually likes the movie, as he vacillates between defending the film outright, to just claiming it’s problems are also present in the originals and therefore our objections can only be because we’re racists, sexists, etc. etc. The movie is just a proxy for his personal ideology and he’ll defend it to he death even if it’s cinematic garbage.

I don't see how the movie is a "proxy" for any kind of real-world ideology at all. I'm not the one who keeps trying to bring politics into this.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So the new snoke comic just raises more questions. apparently snoke knows luke went to dagobah and takes kylo there to train he also apparently Respects and fears luke.

No idea what’s canon with palp at this point or if he ever knew luke went into the cave but if he did then it would be a pretty strong pointer to snoke just being palp.

[Skulltaker]

So the new snoke comic just raises more questions. apparently snoke knows luke went to dagobah and takes kylo there to train he also apparently Respects and fears luke.

No idea what’s canon with palp at this point or if he ever knew luke went into the cave but if he did then it would be a pretty strong pointer to snoke just being palp.

Luke didn't make his trip to Dagobah a secret. It's pretty safe to assume that he'd tell a generation of fledgling Jedi he trains about his own experiences.

Also, if you remove the speech bubbles this comic is awfully sexual all of a sudden. Especially panel 4. If you didn't know Kylo was talking to Snoke you'd be forgiven for thinking he's checking out his butt.

[Ophenia]

I believe the sequel is the first time we actually see someone get only superficially wounded by a lightsaber.

Yeah, you can be a random soldier and not give a shit about having your spine sliced in half by a lightsaber nowadays

While every other single troop in SW movies will die as soon as they're hit on one finger

[PACOX]

So the new snoke comic just raises more questions. apparently snoke knows luke went to dagobah and takes kylo there to train he also apparently Respects and fears luke.

No idea what’s canon with palp at this point or if he ever knew luke went into the cave but if he did then it would be a pretty strong pointer to snoke just being palp.

[MG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/uEeGeG2UXfI1clYiZeIctHemIBxX0wxVliEQ-EegS1VhbYYrGtAKisR1yhnWgEb4qKOiCd9jJpaIf4oQociDh12PAwp7c2Id20KRN9Exj59ccd1NwxVq4EuPLET28o0 bqnJIww-j3Q=s1600[/IMG]

Ahh, that would be lame after Snoke talked crap about the Sith and real-life interviews that said Snoke isn't Palp.

Hoping it just means that Luke told him about it because there are clues that they've spent some time around each other.

I also dont see Palps going out the way Snoke did. Palp is a lot smarter than that and would've been a greater blunder than the first throne room...then they just bring him back,.again

[exochaft]

The only reason the OT llightsaber fights were such was the lack of technology and the prop material they used to actually film the fight. Lucas says so in the OT commentary, that, in the Vader vs Obi-Wan fight, the sticks they used to film the fight kept breaking, if the actors actually clashed them.
The lightsaber fights (and the materials used) in the 2nd and 3rd film of the OT were better, thus we see more elaborate fights between saber users.

While i don't disagree that many of the lightsaber fights in the prequels lack soul and are mostly there for the flash bang, thinking that there was a deliberate meaning about the lightsaber fight filming in OT is just a joke. There was less choreography only because of production reasons. When the prequels were filmed, that stuff was no longer a problem.

I think one has to look beyond just the two lightsabers and how they're moving to get an understanding of why lightsaber duels in the OT have much more depth in their presentation.

I recall back when Episode 1 came out in theatres, and my friends and I had this underlying feeling that while the lightsaber fights were visually flashy, they were missing something. When thinking about it, we realized that there was zero dialogue happening during the entirety of the duels. In the OT, there were breaks in combat where dialogue would take place, and usually those were as much of a battle as was the lightsaber dueling was. Going from memory, I don't think TFA/TLJ has any dialogue during lightsaber duels, and they seemed much more about flashy movement and sword displays than conveying a conversation between combatants. Current lightsaber duels are basically flat in this regard. Maybe this is just personal preference, as actual duels likely wouldn't have conversations interjected, but they also wouldn't be displays of 95% wasted/unnecessary movements lasting for long durations. I'd default to it being a matter of what better conveys the story, and having dialogue woven in tends to do that more than nonstop action scenes (which is a problem in many films, SW aside).

Another aspect that's akin to the dialogue woven in is what's going on around the lightsabers. What I'm referencing can be easily seen in TESB/RotJ lightsaber duels, and it's probably something you might have consciously missed but may have felt during the fights. Apart from the dialogue, there are often subtle and intentional lighting and coloring options that progress through these fights that express changes or relay symbolism important to each moment as the fights progress. Also, fighter positioning itself relays subtle hints, such as elevation and fighter movements therein. I'm not talking blatant "I have the high ground!" stuff, I'm talking purposeful positioning to convey strength or symbolize a fighter's attempt to ascend towards a more powerful opponent. It'd take a huge post to break down everything even in one scene, so I'd suggest watching the Luke vs Vader duels at the end of TESB and RotJ while paying close attention to the environment, the angle of the shots and the perspectives you're shown, etc. as the fights progress. The short version you'll notice is this: it all has meaning to it beyond "that will look cool and flashy!" The entire ending sequence around and including the lightsaber duel in TESB has much more subtle depth than anything you'll find in the prequels and the newer movies.

Hopefully, Episode 9 will take some cues about what made such sequences much more than just two lightsabers hitting each other. While Episode 7/8 aren't nearly as pointlessly coreographed lightsaber fights as in the prequels (not for a lack of trying, a la Snoke's throne room), they still lack much depth when it comes to messaging. There were some attempts in 7/8 at such messaging, but it was on such a superficial level or was used in extremely limited capacity that it seemed rather silly... or it was surrounded by nonsense to the point that you didn't really care at that point.

[Kokolums]

You should watch some sparring matches between actually-skilled swordsmen. They look nothing like that stuff, because that spinny bullshit means you're deliberately giving your opponent an opening when your weapon cannot be brought to bear to defend yourself.

Huh?

What do real life swordsmen have to do with jedi masters with telepathic powers able to sense and anticipate the moves of an enemy by reading their minds using the Force?

[s_bushido]

You should watch some sparring matches between actually-skilled swordsmen. They look nothing like that stuff, because that spinny bullshit means you're deliberately giving your opponent an opening when your weapon cannot be brought to bear to defend yourself.

All this talk of which series had the better lightsaber duels aside, real fights look nothing like what you see in movies because real fights aren't choreographed. When you know exactly what the other person is going to do because you've been practicing with them for hours so that it both looks good on camera and you don't accidentally murder each other...well...it's obviously not going to look the same as it would if you were just relying on your skill/training in whichever martial art is applicable.

[Kokolums]

All this talk of which series had the better lightsaber duels aside, real fights look nothing like what you see in movies because real fights aren't choreographed. When you know exactly what the other person is going to do because you've been practicing with them for hours so that it both looks good on camera and you don't accidentally murder each other...well...it's obviously not going to look the same as it would if you were just relying on your skill/training in whichever martial art is applicable.

But like I said, 2 jedi masters actually WOULD know what the other person is going to do because they can use the Force to anticipate everything. So it actually might look choreographed.

[Skulltaker]

But like I said, 2 jedi masters actually WOULD know what the other person is going to do because they can use the Force to anticipate everything. So it actually might look choreographed.

Yeah, but then again, they are supposed to be able to shut their minds off of foreign intrusion by force users, which leads us back to the better sword fighter winning, which leads us two idiots standing across each other, flailing glowsticks, while the entire situation could be resolved by a quick crotch kick. Or disembowelment, but since the prequels kicked me in the nards metaphorically I'd be fine with either McGregor or preferably Christiansen having his nutsack parted like moses did the red sea.