Elegy and A Good War Fully Released

[Jastall]

Well to be honest i exterminate several galaxies a week playing Stellaris as a slave driver who genetically modifies everyone he conqueres into cattle and proles before butchering them as food in the end.

I might understand that that, as well as Nelv genocide are bad things as a person, but enjoy the story and fully support it as a Horde character no matter who the warchief, because the whole point of digital gaming is to put you into delusional world to experience unusual things.

Iirc there is even a study that shows that ppl on the internet and in games tend to take roles that are as far from their real life as possible. Unintelligent people try to show themself philosophical and witty, spamming their pages with "cool" quotes and stuff, insecure people try to be alphas, etc.

The difference is that you, the player, choose to do this in Stellaris. When I play Total War Warhammer, I'm perfectly fine choosing the Dark Elves and playing as a slaving, pillaging, torturing, murderous, quasi genocidal bunch of maniacs. Because there's whole lotta factions to choose from if I don't like this theme. When playing WCIII I favored the Undead. In Starcraft, the Zerg. In my latest playthtough of Dragon Age Origins I played a total freaking scumbag who murdered on a whim, massacred an entire species, sold his own people into slavery for power and ruthlessly played a political game at the expense of his friends. Because I could choose to do it.

In WoW, you're Alliance or Horde, which in BfA means you either follow a bunch of morally flawless people in perfect symbiosis with each other and whose every subject is a veritable paragon of virtue, or a bunch of savages led by a pillaging, torturing, team-killing, dead-raising, quasi genocidal sociopath. There's no middle ground, no choice if you want to play something else. You either follow a bunch of angels or Satan with tits. That's just bring as hell to me.

[Tripzzz]

yep. she make all her speech in a sarcastic way and then she use that hyperbole. you know, the figure of speech you always use

Lmao. So her motivation is hyperbole. Too funny.

[Qualia]

Lmao. So her motivation is hyperbole. Too funny.

Her motivation was basically "If there will eventually be a massive war nonetheless, is there any point in delaying it with peace?". The 100 years is just hyperbole, but her motivation isn't. I don't quite agree with her, though - I think that's too pessimistic to assume that no matter how much both sides try, both factions would come to a total war in the end.

[omeomorfismo]

Lmao. So her motivation is hyperbole. Too funny.

lulz, your comprehension skills are so bad that now im feeling bad for you. meh, whatever...


anyway, there is a description of the forsaken rogue rifen in the alliance story?

[shrek09]

And Sylvanas's plan failed because it was bad. She banked on a factor she could not control - Greymane's behavior, when surrounded by cooler heads no less - and the Night Elves collapsing in front of her onslaught when they previously weathered a treacherous Azshara and a Legion invasion far more vicious than the one we just experienced. She badly evaluated her enemies and her shift of strategy made things worse for everyone involved. The Horde won a somewhat improbable tactical victory (really, in 10k years nobody discovered the magic tunnel Saurfang used?) but Sylvanas blundered and ruined it with a strategic idiocy that set her entire plans literally aflame so all they have to show for it is a burning tree and Night Elf lands that will be lit up in an endless guerrilla war.

I think it's a little shortsighted to say that Sylvanas' plan failed.
"And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow. And she wouldn’t be the only force beyond the Alliance to oppose Sylvanas’s true objective."
It's pretty obvious throughout the book that Sylvanas' goals are much broader than what is implied by her conversations with Saurfang...

And how is taking complete control over the entire continent of Kalimdor thus securing the major sources of azurite for the Horde while also destroying the Nelf fleet and taking a couple of ships for yourself not a major strategic victory??

Bonus: there's a lot less Nelfs to fight in the future

[Tripzzz]

Her motivation was basically "If there will eventually be a massive war nonetheless, is there any point in delaying it with peace?". The 100 years is just hyperbole, but her motivation isn't. I don't quite agree with her, though - I think that's too pessimistic to assume that no matter how much both sides try, both factions would come to a total war in the end.

She is way too dangerous to continue living with that motivation. The Alliance literally has no choice but to kill her.

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lulz, your comprehension skills are so bad that now im feeling bad for you. meh, whatever...


anyway, there is a description of the forsaken rogue rifen in the alliance story?

I feel bad you think Slyvanus is a good character.

[Sinistrem]

But now, if blizzard would want really (which i dont think after that short) go with the "sylvanas evil path", exactly how could expect that i, as a forsaken player, could even think to betray my people, nathans and sylvanas?

After reading this novel, i doubt they will go this path. She will either step down as a leader of forsaken, or be written off as Illidan. I mean, even Saurfang suddenly concludes that burning was the only way to go after plan with Malf went fubar. And even more importantly, every leader except Baine supports starting war first. The fact that they expected it to be short doesn't matter, there is no 5 second rule for wars when if you finish war quick enough you are suddenly neither aggresor nor warmonger.

To compare, they've spent several expacs showing both player characters and racial leader despise Garrosh more and more, with many uncharacteristic acts like Sylvanas being against Theramore bombing even though she just plague bombed the shit out of Gilneas. Hell we knew he would be raid boss before mop was released.

So expect Horde to either become dark enough for genocide to be nothing special / Big bad showing up with everyone forgetting about Sylvanas and Teldrassil / Some convoluted redemption arc.

[Minikin]

It's in the novella. Their plan to divide the Alliance fails because both Sylvanas and Saurfang assume each of the Alliance component races have different motives and in a crisis would disagree on where to prioritize. But they're wrong, because they all follow Anduin along on everything anyway regardless of what happens.

Isn't that more the fault of sylvannas and saurfang though?

Isn't a warchief or a military general supposed to be knowledgeable about their enemy? Isn't she supposed to be some tactical genius

[Deleted]

Her whole reasoning given is nothing but smokescreen so the rest of the Horde follow her to war. It doesn't need to make actual sense, it only needs to strike a nerve with Saurfang and make him think he's doing something to protect his Horde. He's a war veteran in a series of wars with so much mass murder and genocide that I don't think he can even conceive of a peaceful world. It's not even a possibility to him. At least that's how it seemed to me. And she just stokes his fear and paranoia about it, and then a bit of his bloodlust and want for glory and a chance of dying in a worthwhile and just battle.


"That was what war did. That was what it was for: to give civilized beings permission to do the unthinkable. Only then could you achieve the impossible." Sylvanas's thoughts.

[Sinistrem]

Her motivation was basically "If there will eventually be a massive war nonetheless, is there any point in delaying it with peace?". The 100 years is just hyperbole, but her motivation isn't. I don't quite agree with her, though - I think that's too pessimistic to assume that no matter how much both sides try, both factions would come to a total war in the end.

If playing Stellaris, Civ and other 4X games has tought me anything, she is right. If you are going for extermination/domination victory and can finish game early, why wait for endgame.

Hell it all makes sense from point of view of 4X player. It's just abhorrent and disgusting from the point of view of average person.

[Minikin]

I don't know how can you people ignore that Genn Graymane is the actual lunatic here?

Also, what's up with swinging emotions here? Do you people really judge characters based on cinematics only? I mean "Saurfang for warchief!" one moment, next "He is self pittying sad prick".

Name and avatar checks out

[Friendlyimmolation]

Isn't that more the fault of sylvannas and saurfang though?

Isn't a warchief or a military general supposed to be knowledgeable about their enemy? Isn't she supposed to be some tactical genius

They failed to see the full potential of humans being friends with others


Edit I am convinced if we merged Saurfang and Sylvanas it would be the perfect Warchief

[Kallisto]

Her motivation was basically "If there will eventually be a massive war nonetheless, is there any point in delaying it with peace?". The 100 years is just hyperbole, but her motivation isn't. I don't quite agree with her, though - I think that's too pessimistic to assume that no matter how much both sides try, both factions would come to a total war in the end.

From her perspective though she is clearly right and proven right from the actions of Genn in Stormheim and SI7 in Silithus. Anduin's not public punishing of Genn also cements the idea that he's in support of it or is powerless to stop.

[Jastall]

They sell it just how they sold night elves being out rogued in their own forest by blood elves and forsaken.

I can understand BEs to a degree but Forsaken? Really? They're bags of bones that must stink for miles around and the novellas explicitly highlight that Night Elves have better than usual sense of smell even without counting druidic forms. Yet they can sneak up above an entire group of NEs?

It's just another instance of the sad trend of seeing NEs castrated by the narrative. Oh how the mighty have fallen since WC3 in the name of faction balance.

[Ash123]

The current story has the Horde plan fail because they assume the Alliane have separate motives and drives, while in reality they're happy to circlejerk over an 18 year old. Their mistake is thinking too highly of the Alliance. I feel kind of bad for Saurfang and Sylvanas for putting all that effort into their initial trickery.

Yes, it is just like when a pro player makes a skill shot assuming his opponent would evade, but only to miss it because his opponent is a newbie who does not has the concept for evading...

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I don't know about "whitewashing," but they certainly failed to foresee that the Alliance was more allied than the Horde itself was or is, that is for certain.

You are taking the unity of Alliance as a given but there is really no explanation why there is such unity in the first place except everyone in Alliance just behave in that manner.

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I don't think it's really a matter of bias at play here, though - in this particular case, it is what it is, spelled out quite clearly in the narrative here. The plan depended on Greymane, well, being Greymane; putting his personal grievances before the Kaldorei and the Alliance, more than willing to put captured Gilneas above ruined Teldrassil. But that didn't happen - Sylvanas and Saurfang failed to account for Genn actually being noble, recognizing his debt to the Night Elves, and willing to put his own grievances aside.

When did Greymane lost Gilneas? 4 expansions ago, which is about 8 years.
So, Genn did not cry for taking back Gilneas for 8 years, even when the opportunity was golden right after MOP.
Then suddenly everyone think (including himself) he should cry to take back this kingdom.

This is the real issue I could not understand...

[Sinistrem]

Oh how the mighty have fallen since WC3 in the name of faction balance.

I mean the fact of them joining Alliance to begin with didn't make any sense. They are portrayed as racist isolationists whose first reaction to seeing new race in their forest is "kill them in the name of Elune" And even if we put that aside they are a race with 10 thousand year old diplomats who could probably manipulate both factions all they wanted, 10 thousand year old generals and soldiers that fought in the war of the ancients and 3d war, far surpassing skills of mortal races. Not to mention most powerful druids in the world, surpassing Tauren in both numbers and skill.

They don't need a faction, they are a faction in themselfs if you consider power scale.

In wc3 they were basically Eldar from wh40k. They then degenerated into Lotr Elves. And now i'm not even sure whether there is a fandom with elves so pathetic as Nelves after blizz butchered them with burning of Teldrassil.

[seleri]

Haven't read the whole thread, so someone else may have mentioned it, but does anyone else get the feeling Delaryn is gonna get raised as undead or come back in some way? The whole part about her losing faith in Elune at the end just felt so tacked on, like it has to be leading to something else. Though I guess it could just be showing that Sylvanas really did kill hope (at least Delaryn's hope).

[Sinistrem]

I am convinced if we merged Saurfang and Sylvanas it would be the perfect Warchief

I'm pretty sure a creature like that will suffer angst overload the moment it phases into existance and will be driven purely by suicidal tendencies. Question is whether it will prefer going to enemy camp to die or to throw itself from the tower onto spikes below.

[Jastall]

I mean the fact of them joining Alliance to begin with didn't make any sense. They are portrayed as racist isolationists whose first reaction to seeing new race in their forest is "kill them in the name of Elune" And even if we put that aside they are a race with 10 thousand year old diplomats who could probably manipulate both factions all they wanted, 10 thousand year old generals and soldiers that fought in the war of the ancients and 3d war, far surpassing skills of mortal races. Not to mention most powerful druids in the world, surpassing Tauren in both numbers and skill.

They don't need a faction, they are a faction in themselfs if you consider power scale.

In wc3 they were basically Eldar from wh40k. They then degenerated into Lotr Elves. And now i'm not even sure whether there is a fandom with elves so pathetic as Nelves after blizz butchered them with burning of Teldrassil.

Yeah, a big part of they degradation into punching bag came from the fact they joined the Alliance out of gameplay convenience. Had the NEs been as strong as they were, the Horde doesn't stand a single chance as the Night Elves alone would be almost a match for them, and certainly would defeat them on their home turf without the demon blood trump card that turned the tables in Grom's favor.

I've always thought WoW would work better as a 3 faction game; human Alliance, NE faction with other races (Fulborgs, Draenei, Worgen maybe?) that can be a bit more savage and ruthless while still not overdoing it, and the Horde that now has the leeway to be the murderhobos that Blizzard apparently wants them to be. But I suppose it's harder to sell faction pride when the conflict is more complex than red vs blue and evil vs good.

[Ash123]

Haven't read the whole thread, so someone else may have mentioned it, but does anyone else get the feeling Delaryn is gonna get raised as undead or come back in some way? The whole part about her losing faith in Elune at the end just felt so tacked on, like it has to be leading to something else. Though I guess it could just be showing that Sylvanas really did kill hope (at least Delaryn's hope).

Throughout the whole story there is not a single indication that Sylvanas raises any fallen, friends or foes.

Actually I thought she would raise the blood elf rogue but it did not happen.