"Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons"

[RobertoCarlos]

And have been nerfed, so now as far as melee goes unless you're willing to use a monk you deal with targeted stuns/silences which rogues excel at. We're not in Legion anymore.

And you didn't address the main point either way. DPS pales in comparison to utility in high tier content. And 5-mans are a relevant progression path today which they absolutely weren't in vanilla unless you think T0.5 sets were the real deal. Thus your arguments don't reflect reality much.

well theres no point talking about m+ in BFA when its not even released, do you legit have a point?

And M+ is a nice new feature sure, one of the few.

Vanilla still had more content though because dungeons were far more relevant for longer and required for tuning for raids.

[Jastall]

well theres no point talking about m+ in BFA when its not even released, do you legit have a point?

And M+ is a nice new feature sure, one of the few.

Vanilla still had more content though because dungeons were far more relevant for longer and required for tuning for raids.

If only we had a beta where players were running M+ for month- oh wait, we did. The point is, utility is more important nowadays than theoretical DPS and M+ demonstrates that better than any other content.

Dungeons were relevant for longer how? You outgeared them then never looked back ever unless you were running them to attune someone else or something to which, good fucking riddance is all I'll say. M+ keeps them entirely in the progression path all expansion pack long. It is true that vanilla's wonky as hell itemization made some dungeon items better than what you could find in raids sometimes until, like, AQ40, but that was a function of said broken ass itemization more than any design philosophy in regards to dungeons.

[Deleted]

Last few expansions I'm pushing maybe 5 buttons in a raid, in Vanilla I pushed perhaps 4. It's not that big of a difference.

What is a difference however is that the world was far more dangerous in Vanilla. Simply questing was dangerous. You died often. Nowadays you hardly ever die, and if you do it's because you f*cked up. You needed to use more obscure abilities while simply leveling in Vanilla than you do today.

So the argument really doesn't hold any ground. Vanilla wasn't easy. And today's game isn't difficult or complex either. It has pretty much stayed the same over the years.

[RobertoCarlos]

If only we had a beta where players were running M+ for month- oh wait, we did. The point is, utility is more important nowadays than theoretical DPS and M+ demonstrates that better than any other content.

Dungeons were relevant for longer how? You outgeared them then never looked back ever unless you were running them to attune someone else or something to which, good fucking riddance is all I'll say. M+ keeps them entirely in the progression path all expansion pack long. It is true that vanilla's wonky as hell itemization made some dungeon items better than what you could find in raids sometimes until, like, AQ40, but that was a function of said broken ass itemization more than any design philosophy in regards to dungeons.

there were drops in there that were good for a long time, as well as some classes in particularity have powerful items like bear druids and items with armor on it etc.

It wasnt just ilvl obsession like we have now and there was more than 4 different stats

[WeaponizedPillows]

Lol... Someone didn't actually raid during vanilla. The challenge to vanilla raiding was herding 40 children and somehow managing to play the game at the 5-10 fps you got on old toasters.

Most bosses only had one or two mechanics, and they were never more complex than spreading out or stacking up for the majority of the group. Seriously, go look up the mechanics of vanilla raid bosses. Until the end of aq40, and some outliers in naxx, most fights have only one or two things for an individual to worry about, and you were largely carried by the more competent raiders without them really feeling it.

[Protean]

Great argument!

Wow what a great comeback.

[Soon-TM]

I don't like the way raiders conflate skill with discipline. All it took in vanilla was discipline, there was no real skill in raiding. There was no real avenue for skill in WoW until arena was introduced in TBC.

And yet arenas were one of the greatest mistakes ever in the game's history. It put a huge constraint on PvE design, and it often had classes that performed well in PvE nerfed because of PvP, especifically arenas. As a matter of fact, it remained an unsolved problem until Legion introduced the PvP templates, and we all know how well that worked on uninstanced PvP. You know, the very thing that Blizz is trying to promote in B4A.

But all Blizzard cared, and cares to this day, are MUH ESPORTZ. They undermined their own game with arenas first, and now with MDI (feeding that toxic "gogogogo" mentality) because, you know, MUH ESPORTZ. Hell, they have SC remastered, SC2, OW and even HotS to promote MUH ESPORTZ but no, they also have to push it down our throats in WoW as well.

In other words, skill in FPS/RTS =! skill in RPGs.

[elaina]

Tanking required you to be a bit of a tactician esp to pull some of those instances. Healing required resource management and conservation/timing. DPS however was faceroll in many many cases.

For example, fury warrior:

>maintain battleshout
>bloodthirst on cd
>spend extra range on whirlwind and heroic strike

At 20% spam execute.

That was it. In 2.0 we had to keep rampage buff up.

[Mr chub]

Does a game need a million buttons to be good? I never really felt more or less attached to a class due to how many buttons they pushed with the exception of assassin rogues in legion. Not sure why but the spec never clicked with me.

[Deleted]

"Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons" – and!?


You think memorizing a 5-7 button rotations is hard? Not It's not and most people do it while leveling…
there is nothing hard or impressive about memorizing a 5-7 button rotation.
This is dumbest thing I've ever heard; It literally takes 5 hours to master it.

While in Vanilla and TBC! You had to think ahead and manage your resources –that is what actually takes skill– and doing that would take months
you would have the illusion that you've mastered your class, but you didn't.


Key things that you are missing when you think about vanilla
– Resource management
– Timing
– Thinking ahead
Which are not vital to game right now at all or not present altogether…

Vanilla & TBC gameplay was more strategy and RPG like, while modern wow is flat out action game.

Since rotations are easy to master Show me your ilvl r1 logs. do you really think that spamming frostbolt and watching threat is harder than a dh momentum rotation?

[Akasha64]

For mages that was mostly the case, but if you used only 1-2 buttons, you weren't a good mage. Good mages looked out for their healers, used AoEs, CC, Removed curses, Counterspell, Trinkets etc.

Mage water and food was also great and also they were the only ones able to port back in those days. Mages brought tons of utility to the raid, so it was not just a 1-2 button rotation. You also had to manage your mana, which basically means make sure it doesn't run out. Innervate me!! (Druids)

People forgot to mention classes were far more unique back in those days. Post-TBC classes became far more homogeneous.

[sage]

Well, that's why you need more levels of M+ etc. Lets say there are 250 levels. Very smart bots that play completely flawless could do 250 (max), Method people and other pro would be around maybe 235 (with potential to climb a little), avarage people might do 175 and noobs maybe 50. Level 1 etc would be for like my Grandmother, aka INSANELY easy. That way, there would be a level for everyone.

It's already like that though. Instead of level 1 mythic+ being for your grandma, it would be normal or heroic. Instead of noobs being level 50, it's like +2/3 or whatever. The average person can do 10+ and pro's pushing 20's or whatever is currently possible.

Increasing the numbers doesn't change it?

[ThrashMetalFtw]

it seems like people legit dont know what resource management was for dps classes

Mana is not the only resource in the game. Dps have more resource management today than in Classic.

[mich4el]

Mana is not the only resource in the game. Dps have more resource management today than in Classic.

The resource management today is just illusion, you need not pay attention to it to get peak performance.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

The resource management today is just illusion, you need not pay attention to it to get peak performance.

Factually wrong. Keep telling youself that though.

[mich4el]

Since rotations are easy to master Show me your ilvl r1 logs. do you really think that spamming frostbolt and watching threat is harder than a dh momentum rotation?

Lol you are the first person I ever heard who thinks rotations are difficult. If you didn't master your rotation by the time you are max level, I got some bad news for you.

Factually wrong. Keep telling youself that though.

No, It's factually right, check your facts again

[Deleted]

Lol you are the first person I ever heard who thinks rotations are difficult. If you didn't master your rotation by the time you are max level, I got some bad news for you.



No, It's factually right, check your facts again

We are comparing difficulties, which relative not absolute. Meaning, I got some bad news for you. And obv. there is always room for improvement, so I ask again - where is your r1 ilvl log?

And about Ressource Management - if you really think It doesnt matter, you've got no idea, evenif it is easy, it is required for good performance on many specs.

I am really curios about your logs, if i had to guess some blue and purple ones which makes you think that you are the real deal.

[Deleted]

Vanilla "rotation" was mostly one or two buttons. But for me thats not a problem at all.
The rotations might be few more buttons these days but they feel the same.

[Battlebeard]

It's already like that though. Instead of level 1 mythic+ being for your grandma, it would be normal or heroic. Instead of noobs being level 50, it's like +2/3 or whatever. The average person can do 10+ and pro's pushing 20's or whatever is currently possible.

Increasing the numbers doesn't change it?

It would matter if gear was scaled, like for Challenge Modes, which more or less meant that gear didn't matter at all. With the current system, if gear scaled, eventually 1000 people would hit the "cap" at lets say 30 and no one at 31, becuase with a gear scale, eventually, things will turn into humanly impossible at a high enough difficulty. That's why, to avoid everyone capping at the same level, adding more levels would make people more spread out in the leaderboard.

[chronia]

The resource management today is just illusion, you need not pay attention to it to get peak performance.

Mind to show some proof? Atleast the classes i play you wont get anywhere without proper resource management as in not aligning resource availabilty with cooldown(s) but also for example making sure you never cap your resources. In most cases resource management is not rocket science, but you also cannot ignore it if you want to do atleast decent. You won't even get close to peak performance without proper resource management.