German couple jailed for selling son to paedophiles on dark net

[Ravenblade]

On the fine, may I ask, does it depend on income? It seems on the low end. I mean realistically, if you take the child prostitution away, these parents also forced labour on the child and withheld the income of that labour. So I would assume that the fine should also account to all the income getting back to the child.

The income or wealth does play a part in it but that the German system always allowed deferred payments (or payment in rates) but it is not the factor deciding against it except if the offender is absolutely incapable of doing it which means usually either added prison time, or in milder cases (speeding etc.): communal service. The difference is purpose: It serves as compensation and satisfaction. Whereas in some countries the purpose is to get rich. Here it is based on the material damages and pains caused. How much is to be paid is based on facts of the case and evidence. There are also reference catalogs being used which in total would give a a mathematically determined total sum which then is negotiated in court however it can't get under 20% of that without risking an appeal.

Basically 43,000 € may seem absurdly low according to American standards where it would be 1000 times higher, in fact there have been high-profile cases in Germany where the sum has been as more than ten times as high but this never has been the underlying philosophy here. However a lot people misunderstand why this happened. The court could have opted for no fine and higher time (given he will end up in preventive custody it wouldn't have mattered by much). I think the intention was to satisfy the damaged party as well. The kid will never see these people again, no money will repair that trauma but it will at least give him and his caretakers a realistic head start for a new period life.

[pyro989898]

Don't you think that's isolation on the person's own terms? I don't think anyone would like to be placed in a random hole somewhere without access to the things that make them feel happy and/or safe.

Justice has to be the same for everyone under the same conditions. The fact that he may enjoy isolation or not should and will not play a role. If anything that could even be detrimental once he ends up in preventive custody.

Is isolation a punishment or not , given the condition of good prison condition , is entirely subjective.
Would really support with providing good prison time for serious criminal if such government show that Recidivism rate is low for serious criminal.

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Don't you think that's isolation on the person's own terms? I don't think anyone would like to be placed in a random hole somewhere without access to the things that make them feel happy and/or safe.

Justice has to be the same for everyone under the same conditions. The fact that he may enjoy isolation or not should and will not play a role. If anything that could even be detrimental once he ends up in preventive custody.

under normal circumstances fines in germany depend "somewhat" on income, you may have a case where the judge goes "fuck it" here and there, but in most cases fines are set in a "that's gonna hurt, but it should be doable" way. putting aside these people being absolutely terrible and disgusting people what would setting a fine of lets say a million do ? they would never be able to pay it back, and in germany it's not like they would take everything but their last 2 euros per day from them or whatever, there are limits to how much even a court ordered fine will make you broke.

about your point (made a post or two earlier) that this won't even pay for therapy though, that much is irrelevant, neither the boy nor any other molested child here has to pay for therapy themselves, and as the fine is to be paid as damages this means it's consolation money for the boy so to speak and thats that, it won't be used to pay for for a therapy or whatever and it isn't meant to save the state money. About the forced labour/withheld income though, it's kinda tricky in that this is a)income from illegal activitis and b)again, there's simply no practical use in handing out a fine that no one is able to pay, like if they sat on another 100k then sure, hand it to the boy, but i highly doubt that.




you seriously think these guys goe to a regular prison and no one will just drop a few hints why he/she is there ?
not gonna advocate for mob justice here, but some asswipe actually killed my cousin and their child because he didn't want to pay for the little one. after his conviction it took not even 2 weeks till some guard "accidentally" dropped a few hints just why this guy was in prison, let's just say he suddenly started to slip on staircases and things like that a lot, if you think prison for these people will be any kind of "fun" you are pretty wrong, they will spend the next twelve years mostly in solitary for their own protection, if you think this is fun then good riddance

can you tell me the country name .

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Domestic newspapers report the woman to be entirely devoid of emotion and empathy, she even is said to haven't reacted in any way to the sentence being brought. Sounds like your typical full blown psychopath. Whether isolation would give her joy? I don't know. Even reclusive psychopaths usually seek out others, if only to satisfy their whatever longings their brain coughs up.


Fines here always are in respect to income. We don't do the life-long and beyond debt thing, so that those that manage to actually recover still get a chance to prove themselves in life after prison. And 49k is a sizable chunk. The fine also isn't the focus of the sentence, that's still the imprisonment and following detention. Also keep in mind that the woman will be 60 upon ending her sentence, with probably not much of a pension. She'll live in poverty and known by the authorities. It won't be a nice life. Rightly so.

and they are not locked 24 hr in room , their will be people like her , it is a prison.

[breadisfunny]

But this sentence is not the only one, just think about what the inmates will do with this couple, they will torture them in jail.

good they deserve it.

[Ravenblade]

Their is no sexual offender list in Germany and even the image of the offenders is not available as you can see in the BBC article.
So i don't think society will know their name and faces ,so society shunning i hardly see it happening. Surveillance is another subjective .
Additionally no data on Recidivism in available in Germany.

Not trying to do nation bashing just don't see any point in comfortable prison time for serious crime offenders.

I wouldn't call that comfortable depending one what constitutes as such for you. That we don't throw prisoners in and chain them to the walls of moldy dungeons anymore should be a well-established fact by now. There are limits given to what a prisoner is allowed to possess and whatever he wants he has to earn by work. That also applies to the subsequent preventive custody following his prison term. The social shunning I speak of is that of one's own family and friends, the closes social connections one could have.

There is no publicly available sex offender list as it is in the US or Poland. They will still be registered in federal criminal databases. A few states, like mine, actually use HEADS. People envision a system where prisoners are locked up and the keys being thrown away. This is not how the system works here, the goal is rehabilitation on one hand and ensuring that the prisoner, if released, doesn't pose a further threat to the society on the other hand. A notorious thief might commit a crime again within 9 years after release, if we trust statistics derived from government studies, but he isn't overall a threat on the level of a child molester who will earn extra - if not infinite time - in preventive custody. What does it matter if it's not the most inhuman conditions here if he realizes he screwed up his life for good? If he doesn't get to that point he is psychopath enough to live in a detention center the remainder of his life, Charles Manson style, where he can't hurt anyone. So the duty of the state of keeping him away from society is fulfilled. As I said: That might not be as charming as vengeful bullet to his head, or a fine hanging-drawing-and-quartering or binding to a wheel, but that's as much as you can realistically do in a modern justice system that doesn't solely aim at punishment.

We also should not forget - in case the money cost argument is brought up - this is a very tiny part of the society, a part who even has to work in their own prison workshops to earn money as well. So no sitting there comfortably tucked into a chair by a nurse allowing you play WoW all day (which is after all the image a lot people seem to have in their minds about not just the German justice system).

[Escariot]

huh what? i thought liberal SJW nations such as germany surely allow the rape of children.

after all paedophilia isnt a crime anymore, or so american liberals say anyway

[Themius]

They should be sent to a North American prison so they can get their ass beat.

You don't see a problem with American prisons beating and raping people? What about the slew of people that are imprisoned but haven't committed any crimes?

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If it is true that he was already a known child offender, either life in prison, or death by painful means would've been the only justified sentence.

Child abusers have no place in our world. That's the one type of offence I feel that people should not receive a second chance for.

Stepping down to "death by painful means" just makes you as sick as people who enjoy snuff films.

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No, ur side that defends pedos.

Forgot Roy Moore already?

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Well then, it is time that germany changes their standards ....

it seems to be working for them... they don't jail a ridiculous amount of people, and they have lower recidivism rates.

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huh what? i thought liberal SJW nations such as germany surely allow the rape of children.

after all paedophilia isnt a crime anymore, or so american liberals say anyway

What American liberals? American Republicans almost elected a fucking pedo with a history of abuse and people in the town literally saying to keep children away from moore and that he was banned from the Mall because of his issues, but yet people still voted for him. How is it that Republicans literally almost vote in an offender, and then turn around and say "hah silly liberals and their celebration of pedos!!!" like what the fuck type of stupidity is this?!

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Their is no sexual offender list in Germany and even the image of the offenders is not available as you can see in the BBC article.
So i don't think society will know their name and faces ,so society shunning i hardly see it happening. Surveillance is another subjective .
Additionally no data on Recidivism in available in Germany.

Not trying to do nation bashing just don't see any point in comfortable prison time for serious crime offenders.

I see the point, less crime down the line.

How does a reformed sex offender get a job and progress when no one will hire them?

There also are numbers the rate is about 10% lower than the US.

[Noradin]

This makes me feel ill.

The jail sentence seems short. They should be in there for life. The fine won't even pay for their therapy bills.

It seems short because bbc didn't report the whole sentence.
Apparently they just translated what they understood and omitted the rest.

And this is the criminal sententencing, it is not supposed to pay for the therapy bills.
It is supposed to establish guilt, the bills are something that concerns civil courts, not criminal ones.
The way to get these therapy bills paid for is to go to ask them to do it and if they refuse go to civil court and point at the conviction in the crimial court.
All costs for court proceedings are of course to be paid by the convicted party.

In the end the actual sentencing and sum of money they have to pay will be much higher than reported by bbc.
That is because either bbc are idiots who do not understand what they are reporting upon and don't care to try either, or because they think their readers are too stupid or uninterested to be worth the efford.

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On the fine, may I ask, does it depend on income? It seems on the low end.

Yes, it is based on what is called "Tagessätze", which means something like "average income per day".
The courts establish them according to a set of rules, they also take into account what the person owns.

Also, the paper didn't mention that they get to pay the costs for all the court proceedings and for the lawyers of both sides.
(This is standard and not part of the sentence, it is just an automatic consequence of getting convicted.)

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Their is no sexual offender list in Germany and even the image of the offenders is not available as you can see in the BBC article.
So i don't think society will know their name and faces ,so society shunning i hardly see it happening. Surveillance is another subjective .
Additionally no data on Recidivism in available in Germany.

Not trying to do nation bashing just don't see any point in comfortable prison time for serious crime offenders.

Didn't you read what you quote?
No time to do more than skim for buzzwords?

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The thing with the fine is, they essentially stole wages from the kid. The fine should cover those.

No, that would be a case for the civil court, not for the criminal one.
Getting a conviction in the civil courts after the criminal one is done is easy, though.
Just pointing at the criminal conviction is enough. (Since the standards for convictions are higher in criminal courts.)
Civil courts are not limited by the income of the convict, either.

[pyro989898]

You don't see a problem with American prisons beating and raping people? What about the slew of people that are imprisoned but haven't committed any crimes?

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Stepping down to "death by painful means" just makes you as sick as people who enjoy snuff films.

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Forgot Roy Moore already?

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it seems to be working for them... they don't jail a ridiculous amount of people, and they have lower recidivism rates.

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What American liberals? American Republicans almost elected a fucking pedo with a history of abuse and people in the town literally saying to keep children away from moore and that he was banned from the Mall because of his issues, but yet people still voted for him. How is it that Republicans literally almost vote in an offender, and then turn around and say "hah silly liberals and their celebration of pedos!!!" like what the fuck type of stupidity is this?!

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I see the point, less crime down the line.

How does a reformed sex offender get a job and progress when no one will hire them?

There also are numbers the rate is about 10% lower than the US.

What reformed Sex offender??????
their is no recidivism number . If recidivism number is very small for serious criminal and prisoner gets facility like a 5 star hotel in prison , i will favor.

[Themius]

What reformed Sex offender??????
their is no recidivism number . If recidivism number is very small for serious criminal and prisoner gets facility like a 5 star hotel in prison , i will favor.

I literally say there are numbers and you just say there aren’t again.

[pyro989898]

I literally say there are numbers and you just say there aren’t again.

link it please ,as i was not able to find it , may be poor choice of words in search .

[Deleted]

Not sure that is usually referred to as the dark web though.

That's what the dark web technology were developed for, they literally use the same software and protocols

Cars were made to go from point a to point b, recently some groups used them to ram into people, you're arguing semantic where there's no argument.

[Crillam]

Has the "dark net" ever been used for something good?

The snowden leaks?

[Ravenblade]

link it please ,as i was not able to find it , may be poor choice of words in search .

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Germany's judicial system is not centralized therefore there are not always up-to-date accurate centralized statistics available. Even if you summarize these statistics then you get skewed results because every state uses different methods. That said there are recidivism statistics but only in conjunction with a previously made study however and only, as far as I know, only in German language, and often you have to understand that these statistics are even often more misleading as being recidivous sometimes means "committing another crime" or "getting another offense filed". Meaning failing to report it, violating electronic tag related regulations, being caught shoplifting etc. means becoming recidivous. In addition, and that's been the problem with sex offenders in general, only reported crimes get registered. Also a lot repeat offenders happen to be those without subsequent preventive custody. There is one major advantage to that method: in contrast to "simple" execution it allows for iterative improvements. I daresay countries which happen to have almost no rehabilitative programs in place also have a higher level of recidivism than those who have one.
Also a lot people make the mistake of not distinguishing between risk of recidivism and recidivism quote. For some reason it doesn't make a difference for some people.

[bigbleach]

Good post.

Does the TOR network exist in China? Or are the Chinese to sophisticated to let it exist? Can they block it at the Great Firewall of China? China is a good example of where a TOR network would be useful for dissidents.

The US Navy created TOR I think, and to do just what you said to allow dissidents a way of communicating.

I thought the first person to respond to you was being a little extra... then you post this. Noping on out of here,

[pyro989898]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Germany's judicial system is not centralized therefore there are not always up-to-date accurate centralized statistics available. Even if you summarize these statistics then you get skewed results because every state uses different methods. That said there are recidivism statistics but only in conjunction with a previously made study however and only, as far as I know, only in German language, and often you have to understand that these statistics are even often more misleading as being recidivous sometimes means "committing another crime" or "getting another offense filed". Meaning failing to report it, violating electronic tag related regulations, being caught shoplifting etc. means becoming recidivous. In addition, and that's been the problem with sex offenders in general, only reported crimes get registered. Also a lot repeat offenders happen to be those without subsequent preventive custody. There is one major advantage to that method: in contrast to "simple" execution it allows for iterative improvements. I daresay countries which happen to have almost no rehabilitative programs in place also have a higher level of recidivism than those who have one.
Also a lot people make the mistake of not distinguishing between risk of recidivism and recidivism quote. For some reason it doesn't make a difference for some people.

I don't remember if i mentioned to your's or some one else post . I will state it again i am not trying to question Germany prison system only .I am not trying to bash germany, their are lot of countries which provide a comfortable jail time to serious criminal.
If some one say that a system is very good and add word like progressive to it , their has to be result based on actual numbers and result should be better than previous system.
Yes not all crimes are reported and it is true for most of the countries but crime report system give a minimum idea of crime rate.
"I daresay countries which happen to have almost no rehabilitative programs in place also have a higher level of recidivism than those who have one."
Number gives a more clear idea than subjective one. It is not like prison system is 2-3 years old , it has been going on for decades for a country , many changes where applied by saying changes are progressive but none has released number to support it.

[Easo]

Of all the shitty things this one is definitely up in the top.

They should be sent to a North American prison so they can get their ass beat.

You see, this thinking is a problem. Laws specify the exact punishment for a specific crime. Nothing more, nothing less. Either you follow or throw out the whole judiciary system.

[roxfm]

Stepping down to "death by painful means" just makes you as sick as people who enjoy snuff films.

I don't even know what a snuff film is. Nor do I enjoy watching people suffer. But child abusers don't have any place in our world and I still stand by my words to make an example of those caught, to dissuade any others who are thinking about it.

[Ravenblade]

I don't remember if i mentioned to your's or some one else post . I will state it again i am not trying to question Germany prison system only .I am not trying to bash germany, their are lot of countries which provide a comfortable jail time to serious criminal.
If some one say that a system is very good and add word like progressive to it , their has to be result based on actual numbers and result should be better than previous system.
Yes not all crimes are reported and it is true for most of the countries but crime report system give a minimum idea of crime rate.
"I daresay countries which happen to have almost no rehabilitative programs in place also have a higher level of recidivism than those who have one."
Number gives a more clear idea than subjective one. It is not like prison system is 2-3 years old , it has been going on for decades for a country , many changes where applied by saying changes are progressive but none has released number to support it.

You are right that precise numbers tell more. However that would assume there are guidelines for reporting recidivism and simply put there aren't any, neither on national nor international level. However Germany never explicitly called their system progressive, same as France doesn't call it explicitly progressive, it did however progress over time based on historical experiences dating back even centuries. Mistakes do happen in every justice system and you could only measure progressiveness by checking whether a system is capable of making iterative changes over, is willing to critically reflect on effectiveness and efficiency and of course, does its name justice (no pun intended). In general I do have a lot of trust in our system despite its flaws and issues it has. One has to keep in mind, always, that the German states have a lot leeway in the ways they implement judicial and legal measures, and that is often also reflected in renditions even though they can't act outside the constitution. I'd also bet on that the judgment rendered wasn't done with liberal interpretation in mind, as has been mentioned: The BBC strangely did a poor job at their article giving many wrong impressions. One that the sentence was too low. 12.5 years are a long time and subsequent custody could add another 5-10 years at least. When the offender ever gets out he will be surely 61 years old and he then may ask himself what he has accomplished so far in his life except for being in detention for a third of it. That in addition to the fine that has to be paid should be telling us that the judge didn't simply make an easy decision here, the process took a long time after all and there are no such things as jury trials in Germany.

[Shadowferal]

If recidivism doesn't get reported, then it doesn't happen, right?

[Noradin]

I don't even know what a snuff film is. Nor do I enjoy watching people suffer. But child abusers don't have any place in our world and I still stand by my words to make an example of those caught, to dissuade any others who are thinking about it.

That never worked before as you should know.
Thus our impression that it is not deterrernt that you are after.