Horde lost in the Battle for the Undercity

[Deleted]

But the Alliance did win nothing. A plagued city and a worthless, dead countryside. That's what a lot of Alliance soldiers died for. Nothing.

[Eazy]

The only fact you stated up there was Sylvanas blighting her own city.

"Sylvanas losing the battle" is not a fact. Sylvanas did not intend to overpower the Alliance's and push them back. The trap worked to deliver a massive blow to the Alliance's forces and to keep her city from falling into Alliance's hands. She foiled every single objective the Alliance set out to do (capture Lordaeron and Sylvanas) and that means she won.

Why she didn't intend that? I think that everyone who has enough power to destroy the opposite army should've done that... But wait, she didn't. Because they were weaker, beaten, lost the battle and ran away.

[Deleted]

Why she didn't intend that? I think that everyone who has enough power to destroy the opposite army should've done that... But wait, she didn't. Because they were weaker, beaten, lost the battle and ran away.

Because the Horde lorewise don't have the manpower to hold Lordaeron, especially not after the decimation in SoO and on the Broken Shore, and with Alliance cracking down on it because it wants revenge for Teldrassil, which is predictable and makes the Alliance a puppet to be played.

Still, if you know that you will lose a strategic point, and manage to make your enemy pay dearly for it, then it's a good move. Not a win (this battle would have been a win if the trap had worked and killed the Alliance leaders), but almost the best possible outcome the Horde could get out of the situation. It's a stalemate. Horde lost something it could not hold, anyway, but Alliance lost a city which could have been defended if the stupid decision to send away the mass of NE forces to silithus had not been made. Teldrassil and SW could both have sent troops, in combination with Draenei forces etc. It's not like Stormwind has another harbour.

Anyway, without plot armour and Deus Ex Machina moments, the Alliance would be finished on that day. Think about it.

[Eazy]

Because the Horde lorewise don't have the manpower to hold Lordaeron, especially not after the decimation in SoO and on the Broken Shore, and with Alliance cracking down on it because it wants revenge for Teldrassil, which is predictable and makes the Alliance a puppet to be played.

Still, if you know that you will lose a strategic point, and manage to make your enemy pay dearly for it, then it's a good move. Not a win (this battle would have been a win if the trap had worked and killed the Alliance leaders), but almost the best possible outcome the Horde could get out of the situation. It's a stalemate. Horde lost something it could not hold, anyway, but Alliance lost a city which could have been defended if the stupid decision to send away the mass of NE forces to silithus had not been made. Teldrassil and SW could both have sent troops, in combination with Draenei forces etc. It's not like Stormwind has another harbour.

Thanks for sorting that out. That what I meant, but still, fanboys are going to say that Horde won that battle.
As I wrote a few times, this thread is not about alliance vs horde long-term war, it's not even about Alliance winning the Battle or Jaina shenaningans. It's about Horde losing it.
Of course it was a pyrrhic victory for the Alliance, or a strategical necesssary lose for the Horde. But it was a lost nonetheless for them.

Anyway, without plot armour and Deus Ex Machina moments, the Alliance would be finished on that day. Think about it.

Of course, but it's Blizzard writing the story, not us.

[masterjc]

There are so many wrong people here claiming that Horde won the battle for the Undercity it's seriously started to bothering me. I know that someone can play as a Horde, or be Sylvanas fanboy/whatever...

But saying that Horde won that battle is just foolish.

In b4 "You won nothing" bla bla, yeah, Alliance won nothing(other than dominance on the big part of Lordaeron lol), but the Horde lost their city.

Yes, the Horde is now the dominant faction because they destroyed the whole Alliance city with plenty of Night Elves(and other races) there and they evacuated Forsaken etc.

But they still lost the city and the battle.

Just because they used Blight it doesn't mean they won.
First blight(plan B) was used to make Alliance retreat, then Jaina appeared with her magical boat and fixed the ground with her magic.
Second blight(plan C) was used just to prevent the Alliance from entering to their city and they tried to kill their main characters, but they didn't.

...but the Horde still retreated. They ran away. They knew they don't have any chances with that force, so they decided that losing that city is better than giving it for the Alliance from the strategically point of view. But that isn't winning, that's losing.
(sometimes losing battles can make you win war, but still - they lost that exactly battle)

In b4 "OmG YoU PlAy AlLiAnCe!11one", I play both factions and I like them both. Just stating the truth.

lost or not, if not Jaina's timely arrival, I think Sylvanas had made great trap. and she would eliminate half of Alliance leaders in 5 seconds and Won whole war probably, if not Jaina teleporting them away. I think it was intended by Sylvanas to lose Undercity.

[Deleted]

Horde has done nothing but losing for quiet some time now.

Then don't provoke the superior faction

[Magister of Quelthalas]

I mean Sylvanas ordered to place the blight bombs before the battle started. She blighted the whole city so it and the surrounding areas are not habitable for a long time (unless Blizzard changes how the Forsaken Blight works). Also I wasnt able to gather any information about the current situation of Silverpine or Western Plaguelands. We will see I guess what will happen next. I know the Horde and the Alliance will battle for the control of Arathi and that s all I was able to gather.

[Deleted]

Then don't provoke the superior faction

The superior faction with greater numbers and technology that still didn't capture Lordaeron with all their apparent might. As I mentioned in an earlier post, where the Horde lack in sheer military might and quantity, they counter in being smarter, tactically, and strategically superior. The Battle of Lordaeron is the perfect example of that.

[Skulltaker]

Then don't provoke the superior faction

Agreed.

The superior faction with greater numbers and technology that still didn't capture Lordaeron with all their apparent might. As I mentioned in an earlier post, where the Horde lack in sheer military might and quantity, they counter in being smarter, tactically, and strategically superior. The Battle of Lordaeron is the perfect example of that.

You should really read the missions your mission table gives you. The Alliance did captured Lordaeron and Silverpine, and pushed the Horde out of Darkshore back into Ashenvale, establishing beachheads in the Barrens and Durotar.

[Deleted]

Agreed.



You should really read the missions your mission table gives you. The Alliance did captured Lordaeron and Silverpine, and pushed the Horde out of Darkshore back into Ashenvale, establishing beachheads in the Barrens and Durotar.

I thought it was clear I was talking about within the context of the Battle we all played - as a battle in of itself, everything I said holds 100% true. If we are talking Mission Tables though, the Horde may ultimately lose Lordaeron Keep after the battle but looking at the Horde's own mission tables they actually still have vast control over many areas throughout the rest of the region and Silverpine, as well in Arathi and Hillsbrad too. So, in that context, the reclamation of an indefensible keep in the large scope of things still amounts to next to nothing because they still cannot use it and the Horde (i.e. Forsaken) still control a majority of the surrounding area. Furthermore, on Kalimdor the Horde are actively pushing back into Ashenvale and taking out encampments and holding off Alliance forces trying to reclaim it, and are also pushing back into Darkshore to reclaim lost territory there too. So, again it kinda boils down to if these hold any kind of 'canon value' at all or not. If they don't then everything that transpires on the mission table is ultimately irrelevant. It would be interesting to know Blizzard's stance on this - as in, do any of the War Missions take canon in terms of outcome?

[Skulltaker]

I thought it was clear I was talking about within the context of the Battle we all played - as a battle in of itself, everything I said holds 100% true. If we are talking Mission Tables though, the Horde may ultimately lose Lordaeron Keep after the battle but looking at the Horde's own mission tables they actually still have vast control over many areas throughout the rest of the region and Silverpine, as well in Arathi and Hillsbrad too. So, in that context, the reclamation of an indefensible keep in the large scope of things still amounts to next to nothing because they still cannot use it and the Horde (i.e. Forsaken) still control a majority of the surrounding area. Furthermore, on Kalimdor the Horde are actively pushing back into Ashenvale and taking out encampments and holding off Alliance forces trying to reclaim it, and are also pushing back into Darkshore to reclaim lost territory there too. So, again it kinda boils down to if these hold any kind of 'canon value' at all or not. If they don't then everything that transpires on the mission table is ultimately irrelevant. It would be interesting to know Blizzard's stance on this - as in, do any of the War Missions take canon in terms of outcome?

So, what you are saying is that the Horde lost the Undercity, and the Alliance gained control over it, breacking the backbone of the Forsaken hold over the Kingdom of Lordaeron. I agree the Horde has to use cunning to be able to claim any victory, it was mildly well planned, but Sylvanas failed to take all the Alliances allies into account. Jaina is a very prominent figure and amon the most powerful mages, she must have at least suspected that she could show up.

One of Sylvanas' very prominent flaws is that she tends to overestimate herself slightly and underestimate her opponents or overestimates herself and her allies, time and time again. She's a capable strategist, but knows little of other people. She constantly misjudges characters. If Anduin had been on his own, he might have lost. I'd have assumed the same. He lacks experience. But Alliance leaders are rarely on their own.

She attempted to take Arthas on, 1 on 1, in the Halls of Reflection, all these years ago.

She assumed Greymane would go for the kill, and she lost her scheme due to that, in Stormheim.

She assumed she could take Malfurion on her own, and couldn't.

She assumed Saurfang would simply follow her orders, showing again a deep lack of understanding.

As a result of that, she has cost the Horde two major victories in the past few weeks. She attempted to capture a major settlement and strategic location, and the best she could achieve was to destroy it, commiting genocide in the process, further weakening her own position by alienating two major factions of the Horde (we know off - is there a reaction of the other faction leaders on the Horde side?) and binding the Alliance even tighter together. She failed to deal a crippling blow to the Alliance at the Undercity, and lost her best military commander in the process, someone idolized by a good chunk of the Hordes soldiers.

Resource wise, both factions lost heavily in the opening engagement. Both were denied acces to a major settlement. Troops wise, it is harde to tell. I'll assume the Alliance lost more soldiers overall, but seeing how the Alliance is assumed to be vastly superior in numbers, they can afford the hit.

Morale wise, the Horde lost. Both factions were denied their goal and suffered losses, but the Horde leadership is more devided then ever, while the Alliance stands even closer together. And the Horde lost its General. I doubt Saurfang would disclose sensitive information, he's not a tratitor.

Sylvanas' victories look impressive at first glance. If you look deeper into it, they lose a lot of their glamour. She sells them well to her followers, though, but in the end, she gained the Horde very little, and lost them a lot.

[ausoin]

Furthermore, on Kalimdor the Horde are actively pushing back into Ashenvale and taking out encampments and holding off Alliance forces trying to reclaim it, and are also pushing back into Darkshore to reclaim lost territory there too

The Alliance is doing the exact same thing in EK and in KL but you artibute it as a positive for the Horde in both cases when its the same for both sides.

[Deleted]

The superior faction with greater numbers and technology that still didn't capture Lordaeron with all their apparent might. As I mentioned in an earlier post, where the Horde lack in sheer military might and quantity, they counter in being smarter, tactically, and strategically superior. The Battle of Lordaeron is the perfect example of that.

Yo.. if the horde is smarter why do they still live in mud-huts or ruins even. Looks like steel didnt reach Kalimdor untill Garrosh did. Even he was like 'Yo .. step up your game'

[Deleted]

Yo.. if the horde is smarter why do they still live in mud-huts or ruins even. Looks like steel didnt reach Kalimdor untill Garrosh did. Even he was like 'Yo .. step up your game'

And what does that have to do with the price of cheese on Tuesday...?

[Ielenia]

Why she didn't intend that? I think that everyone who has enough power to destroy the opposite army should've done that... But wait, she didn't. Because they were weaker, beaten, lost the battle and ran away.

They weren't "beaten", because Sylvanas' intention was not to beat the Alliance in a head-to-head battle. Her intention was to set Lordaeron as a big trap to deliver a massive blow to the Alliance's army and to foil their attack. Which she did near perfectly: the Alliance does not control the castle of Lordaeron thanks to all that blight, and Sylvanas was not captured or killed.

The Horde won.

[Deleted]

The Horde win a war of attrition in Lordaeron. There was just a token force of Horde members in Lordaeron Keep, as opposed to the full might of the Alliance, and yet they still came out on top, because what should have been a devastating defeat, was a stalemate; and she, Sylvanas, not only inflicted tremendous losses on the Alliance army, thanks to the Blight, but almost killed the entire Alliance leadership. Therefore, Anduin looked weak, he looked vulnerable, and if this were a realistically-written setting, dissidents within the Alliance would already be taking advantage of this to discredit the "boy king who almost died thrice in a single battle".

Aside from the fact that this attack was meant to ultimately kick the Forsaken out of Lordaeron, but since from the War Table missions we know that they control Shadowfang Keep, the ruins of Alterac, Andorhal, and are attempting to rebuild Durnholde Keep and Southshore, as well as claiming Fenris Isle and the spirits of Dun Garok, it is clear that Anduin failed in his intent to secure Lordaeron for the Alliance. Sylvanas might have lost Lordaeron Keep, but her dominion over Lordaeron is still very much secure. And unlike the Night Elves, whose homeland is completely charred, the Forsaken still control Deathknell, Calston Estate and The Bulwark in Tirisfal Glades.

This siege was meant to be onesided. As Greymane himself stated, they had Sylvanas cornered. It should have been an easy victory for the Alliance, but Sylvanas turned the tables by unleashing the Blight and her necromantic powers, and so what should have been a great triumph, became a costly stalemate.

Ultimately, Sylvanas had clearly given up on the Undercity. Especially with much of the Horde army still in Kalimdor locked in the War of Thorns. And much like Garrosh with Theramore, her sole goal had become to trap and finish off the Alliance in one swift strike, using the Undercity as a bait to lure them right into the centre of her lair. She succeeded. Period. No one could have imagined that Jaina would come out of the shadows after spending the entirety of Legion (which is 1/2 years in-universe) MIA.

On the balance of all things considered, with the amount of planning that went into it from the Horde side and the naiveity on behalf of the Alliance, while it was tehnically a draw the bottom line is this, I feel - that the Horde still came out of it better because they denied the Alliance everything they went in for. Strictly speaking? A draw. In every other sense? Far closer to a Horde win than the Alliance.

/thread

[ausoin]

They weren't "beaten", because Sylvanas' intention was not to beat the Alliance in a head-to-head battle. Her intention was to set Lordaeron as a big trap to deliver a massive blow to the Alliance's army and to foil their attack. Which she did near perfectly: the Alliance does not control the castle of Lordaeron thanks to all that blight, and Sylvanas was not captured or killed.

The Horde won.

Seeing that the defenders charge out to meet the Alliance head on, the blight which would have prevented them from entering the city if it wasn't for Jaina. They did not intend to lose the battle, it was the last measure in case the army lost which they did thanks to Alleria, hell without her the Alliance army would have routed thanks to the chokepoint.

If your enemy forces you to destroy your own home that's not a victory, especially since Sylvanas entire plan in starting this war is to prevent an Alliance counterattack.

- - - Updated - - -

The Horde win a war of attrition in Lordaeron. There was just a token force of Horde members in Lordaeron Keep, as opposed to the full might of the Alliance, and yet they still came out on top, because what should have been a devastating defeat, was a stalemate; and she, Sylvanas, not only inflicted tremendous losses on the Alliance army, thanks to the Blight, but almost killed the entire Alliance leadership. Therefore, Anduin looked weak, he looked vulnerable, and if this were a realistically-written setting, dissidents within the Alliance would already be taking advantage of this to discredit the "boy king who almost died thrice in a single battle".

Aside from the fact that this attack was meant to ultimately kick the Forsaken out of Lordaeron, but since from the War Table missions we know that they control Shadowfang Keep, the ruins of Alterac, Andorhal, and are attempting to rebuild Durnholde Keep and Southshore, as well as claiming Fenris Isle and the spirits of Dun Garok, it is clear that Anduin failed in his intent to secure Lordaeron for the Alliance. Sylvanas might have lost Lordaeron Keep, but her dominion over Lordaeron is still very much secure. And unlike the Night Elves, whose homeland is completely charred, the Forsaken still control Deathknell, Calston Estate and The Bulwark in Tirisfal Glades.

This siege was meant to be onesided. As Greymane himself stated, they had Sylvanas cornered. It should have been an easy victory for the Alliance, but Sylvanas turned the tables by unleashing the Blight and her necromantic powers, and so what should have been a great triumph, became a costly stalemate.

Ultimately, Sylvanas had clearly given up on the Undercity. Especially with much of the Horde army still in Kalimdor locked in the War of Thorns. And much like Garrosh with Theramore, her sole goal had become to trap and finish off the Alliance in one swift strike, using the Undercity as a bait to lure them right into the centre of her lair. She succeeded. Period. No one could have imagined that Jaina would come out of the shadows after spending the entirety of Legion (which is 1/2 years in-universe) MIA.

On the balance of all things considered, with the amount of planning that went into it from the Horde side and the naiveity on behalf of the Alliance, while it was tehnically a draw the bottom line is this, I feel - that the Horde still came out of it better because they denied the Alliance everything they went in for. Strictly speaking? A draw. In every other sense? Far closer to a Horde win than the Alliance.

/thread

Whats up with the consant headcanon that only a token force was at Lordareon, have people forgoten in the cinematic the Horde army size? They had the numbers to charge out of a defensible postion and meet the Alliance army head on and actually push them back.

Then there is Jaina comment how the Forsaken army was massive, and Sylvanas ordering reserves to deploy, its def not a token force.

Very much secure, you are kidding right? From the missions everything is in chaos.

And again why do you see the Forsaken still have holdings as a positive but pretend like the NE are not doing the same thing?

[Skulltaker]

They weren't "beaten", because Sylvanas' intention was not to beat the Alliance in a head-to-head battle. Her intention was to set Lordaeron as a big trap to deliver a massive blow to the Alliance's army and to foil their attack. Which she did near perfectly: the Alliance does not control the castle of Lordaeron thanks to all that blight, and Sylvanas was not captured or killed.

The Horde won.

The Horde lost its best general, it lost its only defensible fortress, the Horde lost a sizable Force of Forsaken, Orks and Trolls.

The Alliance does control Lordaeron castle. They don't occupy it. Just as with Teldrassil, the Horde lost.

The Horde win a war of attrition in Lordaeron. There was just a token force of Horde members in Lordaeron Keep, as opposed to the full might of the Alliance, and yet they still came out on top, because what should have been a devastating defeat, was a stalemate; and she, Sylvanas, not only inflicted tremendous losses on the Alliance army, thanks to the Blight, but almost killed the entire Alliance leadership. Therefore, Anduin looked weak, he looked vulnerable, and if this were a realistically-written setting, dissidents within the Alliance would already be taking advantage of this to discredit the "boy king who almost died thrice in a single battle".

Aside from the fact that this attack was meant to ultimately kick the Forsaken out of Lordaeron, but since from the War Table missions we know that they control Shadowfang Keep, the ruins of Alterac, Andorhal, and are attempting to rebuild Durnholde Keep and Southshore, as well as claiming Fenris Isle and the spirits of Dun Garok, it is clear that Anduin failed in his intent to secure Lordaeron for the Alliance. Sylvanas might have lost Lordaeron Keep, but her dominion over Lordaeron is still very much secure. And unlike the Night Elves, whose homeland is completely charred, the Forsaken still control Deathknell, Calston Estate and The Bulwark in Tirisfal Glades.

This siege was meant to be onesided. As Greymane himself stated, they had Sylvanas cornered. It should have been an easy victory for the Alliance, but Sylvanas turned the tables by unleashing the Blight and her necromantic powers, and so what should have been a great triumph, became a costly stalemate.

Ultimately, Sylvanas had clearly given up on the Undercity. Especially with much of the Horde army still in Kalimdor locked in the War of Thorns. And much like Garrosh with Theramore, her sole goal had become to trap and finish off the Alliance in one swift strike, using the Undercity as a bait to lure them right into the centre of her lair. She succeeded. Period. No one could have imagined that Jaina would come out of the shadows after spending the entirety of Legion (which is 1/2 years in-universe) MIA.

On the balance of all things considered, with the amount of planning that went into it from the Horde side and the naiveity on behalf of the Alliance, while it was tehnically a draw the bottom line is this, I feel - that the Horde still came out of it better because they denied the Alliance everything they went in for. Strictly speaking? A draw. In every other sense? Far closer to a Horde win than the Alliance.

/thread

How can the Horde win a war of atrition if the Alliance High King can ressurect its soldiers? Also, stop with that made-up bullshit regarding a 'token force'. If it was only a token force, the Forsaken alone would have been sufficient to defend the castle, and there wouldn't have been the need for every single faction leader of the Horde to be present, and you losing the best of them.

Devastating losses by what margin, again? You have numbers to share? Please do so.

And it was an easy victory. Besiege a city and take it in one day? I'd love to see the Horde do that.

Sylvanas had given up on the Undercity is a lie. To give up she'd have to had a chance to keep it in the first place, which she didn't. You cannot give up on something you have no chance to gain or retain whatsoever. She attempted to make it as costly for the Alliance as possible - which she failed at, miserably. All she did was make sure that noone can make use of the Capital of Lordaeron anytime soon.

On the balance of all things considered, the measurable loss we have is Saurfang, the Hordes greatest hero and most capable Warrior. On the balance of all things considered, the othermeasurable loss we have is the trust of Baine Bloodhoof towards the Warchief. So, that's two-nil in the Alliances favor. If you take two lost capitals into account: Alliance three, Horde one.

All Sylvanas has proven, again, is that her arrogance is her own downfall, time and time again.

[Nuniqt]

I get the feeling that the alliance forces greatly outnumbered the horde forces before the battle began. That comes from my interpretation of saurfangs vid when zappyboi asks how many there are and he says too many. I think the horde therefore was forced to leave occupational forces in northern kalimdor after the war of thornes where the alliance basically brought their full might to bear.

Did the horde lose a city. Yep. Was that their staging point for EK activity. Yep. Is that a big deal. Yep. It is the mirror to the night elf/alliance loss of teldrassil. I think why the horde feel they came out ahead is that they had time to exacuate UC. They had a sizable force there, but they knew that wasnt a battle they really should win. When blight got deployed they had a shot and they came out the gates for their 1 in a million shot of crushing an alliance wave that got decimated by blight - but that to me was a targeted strike on over extended alliance forces when a trump card got played. The horde didnt make it to the alliance war camp, they just rushed out and clipped some overextended troops. With Jaina countering the blight they turtle back up because they lost their field advantage.

Then you see sylvannas (and possibly nathanos/saurfangs) foresight to rig the place with blight as the loss was highly probable. Kill as many alliance as we can on our way out the back door. She punks the alliance into her trap and springs it. Its like knowing you lost an important chess piece already and getting as much value for it before its taken. She did that. When you measure against darkshore where it clearly feels like a night elf/alliance loss, she salvaged something here.

Thats why it feels like the horde *won* imho

[Enosh]

If your enemy forces you to destroy your own home that's not a victory

Napoleon and the Russians might disagree with you on that one, they burned Moscow and he had to retreat back home in shame even through he "won"