Sylvanas DOES fit the Horde faction fantasy

[sillag]

the difference between alliance and horde as it stands is that the alliance races are willing to stand up for their ideals against hardship and the horde races are cowards who abandon their morals for comfort. with the exception of most of the goblins and forsaken who never had any to begin with

orcs: gave up on their idea to become a nation of noble savages because it was too hard for them to find food in the barrens. apparently their savage lifestyle on draenor wasn't all that savage considering they can't make it in the barrens

trolls: went from opposing the zandalari's empire to embracing it wholeheartedly because it will help them win the war.

taurens: we love the earthmother and nature. let's just not look at what any of our allies are doing all the time. if we go along with it maybe they'll let us keep mulgore. tauren are the biggest fucking joke in this game seriously i quit the horde over this. if they dare have baine poke his head out at the end of this expansion and talk about how happy he is that peace has come i will be sick. he has never lifted a finger when it was needed.

pandaren: honestly its beyond me how ji firepaw is still a member of the horde. he is the dumbest person in all of fucking azeroth to stick around after what he has been through.

nightborne: "we will not be conquerors. now hold my arcwine"

what am i supposed to identify with in the horde at this point. the one sane person left in the faction just straight up quit. and i'm afraid it's not going to be enough for sylvanas to die and saurfang to meekly shuffle onto the stage and wave the horde banner around saying the rest of us did nothing wrong.

on the other hand the alliance gets fucked constantly but they don't abandon their values when it happens. and you can say it's bad writing for the alliance to still be pure white and you're probably right but we have no alternative to bad writing on all sides at this point. i would rather play the faction that doesn't make me feel sick.

[Protean]

When you have her casually sacrifice her own soldiers and turn them into skeletons, you have to start asking some questions. Some posters eat it up as a "cunning" strategy and "everything's fine during war" - conveniently forgetting that most people (which also happens to include most fantasy races) generally don't enjoy choking to death in a poisonous gas, simply because their boss decided this was the optimal tactic. The PC is obviously protected by a plot armor, but if that wasn't the case, I could easily see Sylvanas bargaining our life as a means of gaining more power. Wonder if said edgy posters would agree with her methods at that point.

"Hitler couldn't have risen to power because nobody wants a leader who does genocide or kills his own people. People wouldn't have gone to war and would have toppled him." -You


Sylvanas has a ton of power, nobody dares speak out against her. Garrosh was volatile and dangerous, sure, but Sylvanas is downright cruel. She has the muscle and the intelligence get you where it hurts, and no qualms to boot.

[Arrashi]

She fits its fantasy as a character, but not as a warchief. And thats the main problem here.

[Mardux]

No offense, mate. Everything you said that is wrong.

The first time i opened WoW i thought to myself. Why are these undead bungled in with the Horde. They seem off. As we all know the reasons are for the Horde to have some grip on the Eastern Kingdoms. Sylvanas was not different then, she had purpose (to kill arthas). That purpose masked the person she really was.
Also Orcs are not inherently Bloodthirsty and warmongering. They love a battle and war, i'll give you that. But they didn't commit genocide for shats and gaggles (without demon blood). they lived for the hunt and fought with their view of honor.

Honor and Sylvanas are polar opposites. If anything, she has dragged the Horde down to her level.

cheers

"No offense, mate." But that's wrong. The Forsaken are with the horde because they had no where else to go once the alliance told them to fuck off, called them abominations and monsters, and wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet.

[Ielenia]

except no, the death knights used the bodies of the enemy, not their own

Just a quick addendum and perhaps minor correction: even when the death knights do raise their own, they do not do so lightly, as we could see in the Legion death knight campaign when you recreate the "four horsemen".

[Techno-Druid]

The problem is the modern races of the Horde are not compatible with the ideals of the Old Horde. We've spent over a decade hearing about the orcs guilt over the genocide of the draenei and First War. We've been told from the release of Lord of the Clans to now that the actions of the Old Horde were not only universally repugnant but also not of their own, being made slaves of Mannoroth and pawns of the Legion.

The concept of a return to the Old Horde is even more difficult considering that unlike the Horde of the First War, the modern day orcs are basically a complete civilization with farmers, artisans, civilians, etc. We as Warcraft fans want a faction war, but following the logic of the in-universe races, there are great incentives to not risk war: home, family, political stability, legacy, etc. Things that the orcs of the Old Horde were pretty much manipulated into abandoning.

Not to mention in general it's just a big fuck you to WC3, the entire character of Thrall and years of development.

[Wildberry]

If we're going to be the WCII Horde, why couldn't we have just done it with Garrosh?

[Super Dickmann]

Not to mention in general it's just a big fuck you to WC3, the entire character of Thrall and years of development.

That's even more reason to cement the WC2 Horde. Thrall and noblesavagery have been a cancer on the Horde. He's Anduin before Anduin.

[Friendlyimmolation]

If we're going to be the WCII Horde, why couldn't we have just done it with Garrosh?

Because Kosak didn't like Garrosh I guess.

[Varitok]

Sylvanas really brought out all the edgy, twelve year old WoW players.

[Guildenstern]

Sylvanas really brought out all the edgy, twelve year old WoW players.

No kidding? Because to me horde being all about "muh honor" was much more cartooney and suited for 12 year olds. Honor does not win wars and Sylvanas is best suited to be a Warchief because she is mature in that respect.

[roboscorcher]

She's not Garrosh 2.0 and Anduin didn't die.

What are you talking about?

My bad, I meant Varian's death.

Also, how are her actions different from Garrosh? Theramore, Teldrassil. Yshaarrj, Azerite. The other leaders hate her. We saw this in MoP.

I think Blizz will end up going a different route with her, in the end. But right now, she is following in Garrosh's footsteps.

[Theodarzna]

Well yeah, The Horde is an evil faction, and thus a Lich Queen makes sense.

[SleepsAtDay]

No kidding? Because to me horde being all about "muh honor" was much more cartooney and suited for 12 year olds. Honor does not win wars and Sylvanas is best suited to be a Warchief because she is mature in that respect.

Sylvanas is a mustache-twirling supervillain who has (so far) gotten away with everything she’s done, and is a smirking, arrogant asshole to anyone who questions her. That’s pure id fantasy. That’s about as immature as it gets.

Also, that time where she pitched a hissy fit over some random dying elf and destroyed her own military objective.

[Guildenstern]

Sylvanas is a mustache-twirling supervillain who has (so far) gotten away with everything she’s done, and is a smirking, arrogant asshole to anyone who questions her. That’s pure id fantasy. That’s about as immature as it gets.

Also, that time where she pitched a hissy fit over some random dying elf and destroyed her own military objective.

Everyone who thinks burning of Teldrassil was just to spite the dying elf clearly has no idea of symbolism. Read a "Good War" and you would know that it was the second best thing to do after that traitorous muh-honor-should've-rolled-alliance Saurfang botched the killing of Malfurion. And "moustache twirling"? Please. You clearly don't understand how wars are fought.

[Haven]

Good versus bad is much More interesting than good vs good. Cmon now. Who doesent want To play as the badguys? Id totally play as the bad guys.

Good vs bad is stupid. You know who is wrong and you know who wins in the end. Bad vs bad, on the other side... Like W40k. Imperium is totalitarian theocracy, Tau are castrating people to make them mercifully go extinct in the name of greater good, eldar dispise almost everyone else and like using lower races as meatshield, and the rest are pretty much either genocidal aliens or daemons from Warp.

[Arrashi]

Good vs bad is stupid. You know who is wrong and you know who wins in the end. Bad vs bad, on the other side... Like W40k. Imperium is totalitarian theocracy, Tau are castrating people to make them mercifully go extinct in the name of greater good, eldar dispise almost everyone else and like using lower races as meatshield, and the rest are pretty much either genocidal aliens or daemons from Warp.

A setting without one dimensional, morally flawless lawful good characters ? BRUTHA WAT IS DIS ?

[Haven]

A setting without one dimensional, morally flawless lawful good characters ? BRUTHA WAT IS DIS ?

SPIRITUAL LIEGE is as close as it gets. Oh wait, Imperium Secundus... BRUTHA IM HIT!

[SleepsAtDay]

Everyone who thinks burning of Teldrassil was just to spite the dying elf clearly has no idea of symbolism. Read a "Good War" and you would know that it was the second best thing to do after that traitorous muh-honor-should've-rolled-alliance Saurfang botched the killing of Malfurion. And "moustache twirling"? Please. You clearly don't understand how wars are fought.

Well, if Sylvanas is any indication, you fight wars by turning around at the moment you have your objective in hand, taunt your obviously-conflicted executioner, and leave without making sure that the job gets done. And then overcompensate for your Bond villain mistake later.

[Arrashi]

SPIRITUAL LIEGE is as close as it gets. Oh wait, Imperium Secundus... BRUTHA IM HIT!

The thing is - if you put him in warcraft setting guilliman would easily be the most complex and interesting character in setting.

As for draigo....well turalyon is basically draigo made in china.