Sylvanas DOES fit the Horde faction fantasy

[Theodarzna]

Sylvanas does represent effectively the evil aspect of the Horde. Because Horde identity is kind of two things. Its either "Thralls Family" made up of Orcs (Old Horde), Trolls and Tauren who all have similar values, helped on another out, saved one another and formed a common bond (Though all leaders from Thralls era are dead or don't lead their faction). Forsaken and Blood Elves are Alliance rejects or in it out of pure conveniance and have little connection to the Horde that Thrall built.

Thralls Horde from the 3rd War could be said to be about Honor, Courage and the Saurfang values that he claims to have, but there is that element of overcoming an evil past. By Sylvanas is that Evil Past in spades, and so was Garrosh. The Horde has never effectively reconciled with its evil past, or moved past it. At no point have the Orcs say attempted to make it up to the Alliance for the 2nd and 1st Wars and have routinely continued to do war against the Alliance.

Thralls family is dead, Honor is largely gone as the Horde will time and time again follows evil leaders and has waxed and waned between them ever since its founding in War1. Thrall, and Vol'jin and maybe Doomhammer (Vaguely) being the least evil and Doomhammer is a very BIG Maybe. Thrall never reformed his people and out of necessity took in two races that really didn't fit the other three. Sylvanas is a Horde Warchief in the style of its older leaders, those that chose Demonic service and those guided by the Shadow Council, or Garrosh. The Horde is naturally warlike and that necessitates being evil to some degree. You don't give your supreme leader the title "Warchief" if you aren't expecting to be in a state of near perpetual warfare. Anyone who takes even a second to look at the Horde would see that obviously evil Sylvanas fits their story trajectory perfectly.

[Super Dickmann]

So you take it at face value that guaranteed annihilation war is better than hostages? Okay. You do you.

The narrative beats you over the head with why the hostage plan would not work. Even a dying woman completely at Sylvanas' mercy basically told her to go fuck herself and the story points out that every night elf has rudimentary military training at the very least. Occupying the city would require not just an investment of troops but be at the risk of partisan warfare, one that's backed up by the morale of having Malf escape. Once Saurfang spared Malf and he could no longer be used to break their morale or get Tyrande to make ill-considered moves, the hostage plan had failed.

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Sylvanas does represent effectively the evil aspect of the Horde. Because Horde identity is kind of two things. Its either "Thralls Family" made up of Orcs (Old Horde), Trolls and Tauren who all have similar values, helped on another out, saved one another and formed a common bond (Though all leaders from Thralls era are dead or don't lead their faction). Forsaken and Blood Elves are Alliance rejects or in it out of pure conveniance and have little connection to the Horde that Thrall built.

Thralls Horde from the 3rd War could be said to be about Honor, Courage and the Saurfang values that he claims to have, but there is that element of overcoming an evil past. By Sylvanas is that Evil Past in spades, and so was Garrosh. The Horde has never effectively reconciled with its evil past, or moved past it. At no point have the Orcs say attempted to make it up to the Alliance for the 2nd and 1st Wars and have routinely continued to do war against the Alliance.

Thralls family is dead, Honor is largely gone as the Horde will time and time again follows evil leaders and has waxed and waned between them ever since its founding in War1. Thrall, and Vol'jin and maybe Doomhammer (Vaguely) being the least evil and Doomhammer is a very BIG Maybe. Thrall never reformed his people and out of necessity took in two races that really didn't fit the other three. Sylvanas is a Horde Warchief in the style of its older leaders, those that chose Demonic service and those guided by the Shadow Council, or Garrosh. The Horde is naturally warlike and that necessitates being evil to some degree. You don't give your supreme leader the title "Warchief" if you aren't expecting to be in a state of near perpetual warfare. Anyone who takes even a second to look at the Horde would see that obviously evil Sylvanas fits their story trajectory perfectly.

I agree with the majority of your post, but I have no idea how Doomhammer is sorted with Thrall or Vol'jin. Sure, he wasn't demon-corrupted but he lead the Horde in a way more comparable to Garrosh or Sylvanas than Thrall or Vol'jin. There's a scene where he cheers himself up with the screams of the Stormwind citizens being massacred while the city is sacked and his plans for the Horde vary from Gul'dan's only in that he's the one in charge and they're raping, pillaging and burning for themselves rather than for the Legion.

[dimitrov]

Looking at complaints on "undead high elf not fitting Horde's theme" I tend to disagree.

Thrall's Horde's theme? Yes. But that era had a different Sylvanas, too, personality-wise.

But since Cataclysm we've been heavily drifting towards the Old Horde faction fantasy, not just with Garrosh (though he did play a large part), but more with orcs now being warmongering and bloodthirsty regardless of demonic blood.

And what was fundamental with the Old Horde lore? Warlocks, necromancers and undead.

Some of the most powerful and influential Old Horde figures were physically frail, un-orc'y, scheming evil sorcerer types. Namely Gul'dan, Teron Gorefiend and even BtDP era Ner'zhul.

Sylvanas fits the team perfectly if you ask me.

Undead high elf? Teron was an undead human (possessed by an orc's soul, but still). Oh and he wanted a lil' personal world for himself and his death knights, not unlike Sylvanas' kingdom of undeath.......

But High/nightborne elves doesn't fit with that horde and still Blizzard made them join it. In fact as a guy said in another theme the horde has complete randomness.

[Rasula Elfbiter]

The Old Horde had human allies - the kingdom of Alterac. Blood Elves (very) roughly fit that trope, I think.

[Dagoth Ur]

Warcraft isn't like that, and I'd prefer is it stuck to WC3's grey vs black morality than the black vs white we have today.

Even though it's practically a washed up term and meme now, I always kinda felt like Warcraft works best when Horde and Alliance represent different shades of grey, former being a bit darker and latter a bit whiter. It'd even make more sense with us constantly uniting against someone even worse like Legion and Scourge.

What we have with Sylvanas and Anduin now is nowhere near though, as contrast between them couldn't be starker. With them on helm, it's like you've put the two most extreme facets directly in forefront, and suddenly we're in what feels like black vs white situation. Even though this is probably intended and part of the story they wanna tell, that's the reason why I feel like both factions would be better off if these two weren't leading. On the other hand, at least with Horde you can kinda assume Sylvanas won't be warchief forever, with Saurfang, who's supposed to be "the heart of the Horde", already jumping up and down in disapproval. Alliance though, due to that comic, seems like it's pretty much stuck with Andy, which unfortunately suggest them staying like this for a looong time.

So, as for the OP, even though I don't mind her, Sylvanas works better in role she was before - token, cloak and dagger, evil teammate, while warchief should be someone else, at this point preferably an orc.

[Theodarzna]

I agree with the majority of your post, but I have no idea how Doomhammer is sorted with Thrall or Vol'jin. Sure, he wasn't demon-corrupted but he lead the Horde in a way more comparable to Garrosh or Sylvanas than Thrall or Vol'jin. There's a scene where he cheers himself up with the screams of the Stormwind citizens being massacred while the city is sacked and his plans for the Horde vary from Gul'dan's only in that he's the one in charge and they're raping, pillaging and burning for themselves rather than for the Legion.

It is a strong maybe on Doomhammer, only because he, in theory, tried to overthrow Gul'dan and the Shadow Council and so could be said to be less terrible than Blackhand. He is evil as all hell, but I guess he isn't a servent of the Legion so slightly less terrible? .... for Orcs anyway.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It is a strong maybe on Doomhammer, only because he, in theory, tried to overthrow Gul'dan and the Shadow Council and so could be said to be less terrible than Blackhand. He is evil as all hell, but I guess he isn't a servent of the Legion so slightly less terrible? .... for Orcs anyway.

Some people's heroes are other's villains.

[Jastall]

Even though it's practically a washed up term and meme now, I always kinda felt like Warcraft works best when Horde and Alliance represent different shades of grey, former being a bit darker and latter a bit whiter. It'd even make more sense with us constantly uniting against someone even worse like Legion and Scourge.

What we have with Sylvanas and Anduin now is nowhere near though, as contrast between them couldn't be starker. With them on helm, it's like you've put the two most extreme facets directly in forefront, and suddenly we're in what feels like black vs white situation. Even though this is probably intended and part of the story they wanna tell, that's the reason why I feel like both factions would be better off if these two weren't leading. On the other hand, at least with Horde you can kinda assume Sylvanas won't be warchief forever, with Saurfang, who's supposed to be "the heart of the Horde", already jumping up and down in disapproval. Alliance though, due to that comic, seems like it's pretty much stuck with Andy, which unfortunately suggest them staying like this for a looong time.

So, as for the OP, even though I don't mind her, Sylvanas works better in role she was before - token, cloak and dagger, evil teammate, while warchief should be someone else, at this point preferably an orc.

Agree fully. Moral greyness is not supposed to be a meme, it became one when Blizzard claimed the factions were (which is a dubious claim at best even before BfA) and then put the most sickening paragon of virtue possible at the head of the Alliance, while the Horde's token evil teammate was put in charge. It's like if you claimed Ramsay Bolton vs Jon Snow in Game of Thrones was a morally grey situation. Like, seriously, no it's not. It's one of the most black and white conflicts in the entire show. Only the White Walkers are a darker shade of black than Ramsay.

Personally I'd have been on board a faction war waged for understandable reasons; have Vol'jin as Warchief attack the Alliance because he has pressing needs for resources and/or has strong reasons to believe they are about to invade. To justify this, have Greymane be High King, or make Anduin a lot more assertive after he picks up Shalamayne in an attempt to emulate daddy. The nonsense we got sounds like Sylvanas finding excuses to be able to wage a war for shits and giggles.

You're also right that the Forsaken work when they're the guys doing evil in the background. The entire point of Vol'jin's appointment of Sylvanas is that she steps out of the shadows. Except she's now doing the exact same shit she's always done if not worse, in broad daylight, and nobody says anything. Makes you wonder why they bothered with the secrecy in the first place. The entire theme of the Forsaken doesn't function anymore when they're in charge of a global superpower.