So Momentum sims highest again...

[Synthium]

We are at that point again where Momentum is the highest simming talent, which will lead to a lot of weirdness in raids.

https://imgur.com/a/1Rgbv90

I personally like the dynamics and playstyle of Momentum, but I dislike trading mobility for damage. Any thoughts?

[pay928]

Don't use it, losing 2.4% damage for nemesis is better than changing to a class that might do even less damage that you don't enjoy. Also your demonic spec is wrong. It should be 131X2X1

[Ryzeth]

2018 and people still don't realise that simmed damage isn't reflective of actual dps.

Regardless, though, when both of them are that close to one another, play the one you enjoy playing more. 2% dps from a single person is not going to be the deciding factor in being able to clear content.

[Nemb]

I know that I will not trade reduced survability through unavailable mobility for 2.4% more damage, especially in a new raid. Amount of beer I drink during the raid affects my dps by more than 2.4%

[Donimic]

I highly recommend playing demonic for single target if you do not enjoy momentum... dungeons and AoE on the other hand, yeah that just sucks and we are basically forced into momentum since its like a 10%+ difference.

[Strifelol]

Which fight in Uldir is a patchwerk fight? Where you have 100% uptime on the boss and you don't have to deal with mechanics like moving out of range, unable to attack boss etc?

I guess my point is this; the moment you start adding more targets or you start having to swap or get off the boss because you have to run out with a debuff, that 2.4% difference between Nemesis and Momentum starts to become a lot bigger in Momentums favor. With Nemesis you're usually restricted to one target/target type and requires you to be on that target 100% throughout the whole duration of Nemesis in order to out perform Momentum(if played momentum correctly of course), meanwhile Momentum is not really restricted since we carry the buff over to whatever we swap to etc.

[Deleted]

The difference between momo and nem is like 500dps for me, 14400 vs 14900 or something like that.
But then again: I could fairly weil lose those 500 paper-dps on small hitboxes due to losing autohits or due to movement, so... brainafk-nemesis :P

[Onikaroshi]

I highly recommend playing demonic for single target if you do not enjoy momentum... dungeons and AoE on the other hand, yeah that just sucks and we are basically forced into momentum since its like a 10%+ difference.

Only a 9.4% difference for me, I'll stick with my less annoying rotation lol.

[Tiev]

Glad I switched to rogue. Enough of that.

[Strifelol]

The difference between momo and nem is like 500dps for me, 14400 vs 14900 or something like that.
But then again: I could fairly weil lose those 500 paper-dps on small hitboxes due to losing autohits or due to movement, so... brainafk-nemesis :P

Again, under the assumption that you're doing a patchwerk fight. There hasn't been a patchwerk fight for a very long time btw and there isn't a patchwerk fight in Uldir. Keep that in mind.

Only a 9.4% difference for me, I'll stick with my less annoying rotation lol.

9.4% is a pretty big difference imo. If you don't mind not playing the most optimal talent then it's okay to play whatever you like, anyone that says otherwise is just being an idiot.

[Onikaroshi]

Again, under the assumption that you're doing a patchwerk fight. There hasn't been a patchwerk fight for a very long time btw and there isn't a patchwerk fight in Uldir. Keep that in mind.



9.4% is a pretty big difference imo. If you don't mind not playing the most optimal talent then it's okay to play whatever you like, anyone that says otherwise is just being an idiot.

But you have to factor in most people aren't going to play at "sim level". Some dungeons just aren't conducive to momentum either, too tightly packed mobs, cliffs, random crap, oh, and FR still DCs on occasion so there's that.

[Strifelol]

But you have to factor in most people aren't going to play at "sim level".

Exactly my point, simming patchwerk when there's 0 patchwerk fights is not really realistic mostly just a guideline. Play what you want, doesn't matter what sims show if you're not trying to play the most optimal spec and you're okay with it and your raid is okay with it.

Of course there are going to be situations where Momentum isn't going to be ideal because of x reasons but every fight in Uldir allows you to play Momentum without many issues. Playing momentum is annoying, I hate it to be honest with you. Knowing how to weave in and out of boss range to properly fel rush through a boss in mythic dungeons/raids without losing CD's by timing GCD's takes practice and obviously more work. I prefer to play the most optimal talent even if I dislike the playstyle, it's just my preference. That doesn't mean EVERYONE has to play the way I do, it's your choice . Just know that Momentum will outperform Nemesis a majority of the time.

[Lucrece]

We are at that point again where Momentum is the highest simming talent, which will lead to a lot of weirdness in raids.

https://imgur.com/a/1Rgbv90

I personally like the dynamics and playstyle of Momentum, but I dislike trading mobility for damage. Any thoughts?

Make Demonic last 2-4 seconds longer and increase metamorphosis haste by an additional 5-10%.

[Onikaroshi]

Exactly my point, simming patchwerk when there's 0 patchwerk fights is not really realistic mostly just a guideline. Play what you want, doesn't matter what sims show if you're not trying to play the most optimal spec and you're okay with it and your raid is okay with it.

Of course there are going to be situations where Momentum isn't going to be ideal because of x reasons but every fight in Uldir allows you to play Momentum without many issues. Playing momentum is annoying, I hate it to be honest with you. Knowing how to weave in and out of boss range to properly fel rush through a boss in mythic dungeons/raids without losing CD's by timing GCD's takes practice and obviously more work. I prefer to play the most optimal talent even if I dislike the playstyle, it's just my preference. That doesn't mean EVERYONE has to play the way I do, it's your choice . Just know that Momentum will outperform Nemesis a majority of the time.

True, though from a pure sim perspective (I honestly don't know how it will stack up live, or in Ul'dir) Demonic 131x2x1 outperforms Nem with a 321x2x3 spec, though I don't know if that is the CORRECT nem spec. At least for me.

[Nemb]

Which fight in Uldir is a patchwerk fight? Where you have 100% uptime on the boss and you don't have to deal with mechanics like moving out of range, unable to attack boss etc?

I guess my point is this; the moment you start adding more targets or you start having to swap or get off the boss because you have to run out with a debuff, that 2.4% difference between Nemesis and Momentum starts to become a lot bigger in Momentums favor. With Nemesis you're usually restricted to one target/target type and requires you to be on that target 100% throughout the whole duration of Nemesis in order to out perform Momentum(if played momentum correctly of course), meanwhile Momentum is not really restricted since we carry the buff over to whatever we swap to etc.

Sometimes you cannot predict when you need to run out or move suddenly and get back. if your mobility stuff is down because you just used it for momentum buff, you have to slowboat it and lose dps that way. Having good mobility helps maintain that maximum time on target especially in fights with a bunch of movement or mechanics that have to be executed through movement. This is the main reason I have total distaste towards momentum. It all depends on play-style. Like you said there are no patchwerk fights any more, and we all deal with movement and mechanics slightly differently. I for one, play demon hunter because high mobility classes suit me. If i start using this mobility for no other reason than dps gain, I would rather play something like a ret pally (low mobility but more fun rotation and visuals).

[Strifelol]

Sometimes you cannot predict when you need to run out or move suddenly and get back. if your mobility stuff is down because you just used it for momentum buff, you have to slowboat it and lose dps that way. Having good mobility helps maintain that maximum time on target especially in fights with a bunch of movement or mechanics that have to be executed through movement. This is the main reason I have total distaste towards momentum. It all depends on play-style. Like you said there are no patchwerk fights any more, and we all deal with movement and mechanics slightly differently. I for one, play demon hunter because high mobility classes suit me. If i start using this mobility for no other reason than dps gain, I would rather play something like a ret pally (low mobility but more fun rotation and visuals).

Playing Momentum is a spec where you should know when you're going to fel rush way before hand based off timers and experience with the fight hence the disclaimer (top simming talent if played correctly or if the fight allows you to take advantage of the talent without restrictions such as not being able to FR for long periods of time etc). You should be looking at timers of possible abilities that may require you to hold that FR in case that moment comes. Even then, you lose a lot more from Nemesis than you would with Momentum. Nemesis is a debuff on 1 target that regardless if you're in range or out of range, have a mechanic, have to swap, doesn't matter it's always ticking down vs Momentum you might have to use a couple to get out and back in and lose a little bit of momentum uptime but it's an on demand buff to YOUR CHARACTER that you can use freely vs Nemesis.

For the sake of examples lets just say the following scenario happens:

You start the fight and nemesis the boss. You are dpsing for 15 seconds, then the boss disappears, a new add spawns and it dies in 15 seconds, then you move on to the next target and it dies in 15 seconds. They are all different mob types (undead,humanoid,beast), then the boss finally spawns again. You just lost 30 seconds of Nemesis uptime = 50% downtime on your major cd. Take the same example with Momentum and you lost about 9 seconds of momentum + you were able to do increased damage to all those mob types. There's a ton of scenarios you can bounce back and fourth and most of them favor Momentum currently.

True, though from a pure sim perspective (I honestly don't know how it will stack up live, or in Ul'dir) Demonic 131x2x1 outperforms Nem with a 321x2x3 spec, though I don't know if that is the CORRECT nem spec. At least for me.

Doesn't show that for me in my current gear. The better nem spec for me would be 1311213. Maybe for your gear level, I'm not sure unless you post the sim report.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...c8v2sgC2Mh43KW

[Onikaroshi]

Playing Momentum is a spec where you should know when you're going to fel rush way before hand based off timers and experience with the fight hence the disclaimer (top simming talent if played correctly or if the fight allows you to take advantage of the talent without restrictions such as not being able to FR for long periods of time etc). You should be looking at timers of possible abilities that may require you to hold that FR in case that moment comes. Even then, you lose a lot more from Nemesis than you would with Momentum. Nemesis is a debuff on 1 target that regardless if you're in range or out of range, have a mechanic, have to swap, doesn't matter it's always ticking down vs Momentum you might have to use a couple to get out and back in and lose a little bit of momentum uptime but it's an on demand buff to YOUR CHARACTER that you can use freely vs Nemesis.

For the sake of examples lets just say the following scenario happens:

You start the fight and nemesis the boss. You are dpsing for 15 seconds, then the boss disappears, a new add spawns and it dies in 15 seconds, then you move on to the next target and it dies in 15 seconds. They are all different mob types (undead,humanoid,beast), then the boss finally spawns again. You just lost 30 seconds of Nemesis uptime = 50% downtime on your major cd. Take the same example with Momentum and you lost about 9 seconds of momentum + you were able to do increased damage to all those mob types. There's a ton of scenarios you can bounce back and fourth and most of them favor Momentum currently.



Doesn't show that for me in my current gear. The better nem spec for me would be 1311213. Maybe for your gear level, I'm not sure unless you post the sim report.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...c8v2sgC2Mh43KW

Yea, that one is ever so slightly ahead https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...euzYKL9j3uZsm6

Really seems like a lot is going to rely on how Ul'dir is I suppose.

[Nemb]

I was actually thinking that demonic might be the most appropriate spec for a new raid where nobody knows what they are doing and things are generally a mess for exact reasons you described above. I know that's what I will be using.

As for your nemesis comment you kinda need to know the fights too to time it. Like in abt on high command you wouldn't drop it on the boss on the pull but rather on caster add when it spawns to maximize the effect on both adds and boss.

[Uglytoes]

Could demonic be more competitive if Blizz let us stack the Eyes of Rage trait (Eye Beam reduction)?

[Icoblablubb]

Momentum sims are just ... for Momentum to pull ahead of Nemesis u have to have perfect momentum uptime and close to no error when it comes to rushing out of boss range planing ahead if there will be a boss move or not target switch etc etc etc so much factors into Momentum and since sims simulation is just patchwerk which we basically don't have fights like this anymore that sim is to take with a grain of salt. I doubt that there are that many DH out there who can perform perfect Momentum gameplay so Nemesis will pull ahead