So Momentum sims highest again...

[kliffharry]

Sims assume you have perfect timing on every momentum, never require it to move from a mechanic rather than for DPS gain.

Realistically Nemesis is going to be better in raids simply because of the utility it frees up in fel rush/backflip charges. You may do 3% less DPS, but you may also actually have the movement to dodge that 1 hit ability. A dead DPS doesnt do any DPS.

Equally, Momentum has always been a pain to use in raids except for the most basic of fluffy pillow tank and spank fights, the moment you add any movement, any kind of raid stack/spread or any soak to the mix it becomes worse.

Not necessarily. Stacking is something you gotta do no matter what, with nemesis you lose uptime on the buff, with momentum you dont lose anything unless you cap fel rush. See it as a 5-10 second timeout and if you use VR to get to where you need, you can just fel rush back and have a full fury bar and not lost any of the benefit of momentum, where 5-10 seconds of lost time during nemesis makes it fall behind a lot.

[Deleted]

Good thing I said from a single person then, isn't it? And not per person. Reading sure is hard. Regardless, you evidently aren't aware of what simulated damage means.

Nope, no clue for sure and he sure is quite arrogant about not having any clue whatsoever.

[drbatman]

Good thing I said from a single person then, isn't it? And not per person. Reading sure is hard. Regardless, you evidently aren't aware of what simulated damage means.

thats the fucking point

if everybody in the raid says 'oh its just one person...."


dumbass

[Ryzeth]

thats the fucking point

if everybody in the raid says 'oh its just one person...."


dumbass

Except my post was literally about a single person.

Reading sure is hard.

[Cytraz]

Sims assume you have perfect timing on every momentum, never require it to move from a mechanic rather than for DPS gain.

Realistically Nemesis is going to be better in raids simply because of the utility it frees up in fel rush/backflip charges. You may do 3% less DPS, but you may also actually have the movement to dodge that 1 hit ability. A dead DPS doesnt do any DPS.

Equally, Momentum has always been a pain to use in raids except for the most basic of fluffy pillow tank and spank fights, the moment you add any movement, any kind of raid stack/spread or any soak to the mix it becomes worse.

This is too simplistic.

What if, say, there comes a phase where you have to swap away from the boss during Nemesis? Say a lot of adds spawn and you need to spend at least 20 seconds to take them down. Or perhaps the boss goes underground and is unable to be attacked/becomes invulnerable/takes 99% less damage. Then a big chunk of your Nemesis is going to be wasted. I can think of many, if not more, ways Nemesis can be wasted compared to Momentum.

With Nemesis, you never want to be swapping away from the boss for that 1 minute. With Momentum, you will most definitely lose out on some of the uptime of Momentum and/or be unable to benefit from it, because Fel Rush has to be used for positioning and/or you cannot Fel Rush due to mechanics. But overall, Momentum seems to be the most versatile choice of the two.

Demonic is most probably the most versatile of the talents, but afaik it isn't very good for ST as of right now.

Update: Actually, there is a Demonic build just 1% behind the optimal Momentum build for ST. Might be the best choice, at least for progress raids, since Demonic should seems to be more adaptable than the other two choices.

[Deleted]

This is too simplistic.

What if, say, there comes a phase where you have to swap away from the boss during Nemesis? Say a lot of adds spawn and you need to spend at least 20 seconds to take them down. Or perhaps the boss goes underground and is unable to be attacked/becomes invulnerable/takes 99% less damage. Then a big chunk of your Nemesis is going to be wasted. I can think of many, if not more, ways Nemesis can be wasted compared to Momentum.

With Nemesis, you never want to be swapping away from the boss for that 1 minute. With Momentum, you will most definitely lose out on some of the uptime of Momentum and/or be unable to benefit from it, because Fel Rush has to be used for positioning and/or you cannot Fel Rush due to mechanics. But overall, Momentum seems to be the most versatile choice of the two.

Demonic is most probably the most versatile of the talents, but afaik it isn't very good for ST as of right now.

Update: Actually, there is a Demonic build just 1% behind the optimal Momentum build for ST. Might be the best choice, at least for progress raids, since Demonic should seems to be more adaptable than the other two choices.

This comes down to knowledge of a boss fight though. If there is a phase where it becomes invulnerable, or you have to switch to adds then you know not to use nemesis there. Equally, if the add is the same mob type as the boss, use nemesis on the add. You will be doing the burn phase of the add faster, then you have full up time of nemesis left for the boss.

Obviously if there is any kind of cleave Momentum becomes the better talent,

[Cytraz]

This comes down to knowledge of a boss fight though. If there is a phase where it becomes invulnerable, or you have to switch to adds then you know not to use nemesis there. Equally, if the add is the same mob type as the boss, use nemesis on the add. You will be doing the burn phase of the add faster, then you have full up time of nemesis left for the boss.

Obviously if there is any kind of cleave Momentum becomes the better talent,

Yeah, I agree it comes down to knowledge of the fight. If you only read the tactics of the boss but never actually did the fight yourself, I would not recommend going Nemesis. I simply think the other two choices are more adaptable to a fight. At least I wont be rolling Nemesis during progress raiding, but I have yet to decide which of the other two I want to play.

- - - Updated - - -

Did some testing on a dummy.

I did 5 Demonic fights over 4 minutes each. I did 6 Momentum fights over 4 minutes each.

Overall, I averaged around 8,26k DPS with Demonic, and I averaged around 8,43k DPS with Momentum.

Based on my own samples, this leads to a DPS in favor of Momentum by around ~2% over Demonic, which isn't far from the 1.1% DPS difference according to sims. Obviously, the more dummy fights I would do, the more data I would have to work with and the closer I would get to my true DPS playing each of those specs (leaving aside stuff like me getting better at playing the specs), which in theory should result in a 1.1% DPS increase in favor of Momentum.

My point is that realistically, with a human playing the character and not a simbot, you would still outperform Demonic as Momentum if you play each spec (close to) optimal (which I believe I did).

[kliffharry]

Yeah, I agree it comes down to knowledge of the fight. If you only read the tactics of the boss but never actually did the fight yourself, I would not recommend going Nemesis. I simply think the other two choices are more adaptable to a fight. At least I wont be rolling Nemesis during progress raiding, but I have yet to decide which of the other two I want to play.

- - - Updated - - -

Did some testing on a dummy.

I did 5 Demonic fights over 4 minutes each. I did 6 Momentum fights over 4 minutes each.

Overall, I averaged around 8,26k DPS with Demonic, and I averaged around 8,43k DPS with Momentum.

Based on my own samples, this leads to a DPS in favor of Momentum by around ~2% over Demonic, which isn't far from the 1.1% DPS difference according to sims. Obviously, the more dummy fights I would do, the more data I would have to work with and the closer I would get to my true DPS playing each of those specs (leaving aside stuff like me getting better at playing the specs), which in theory should result in a 1.1% DPS increase in favor of Momentum.

My point is that realistically, with a human playing the character and not a simbot, you would still outperform Demonic as Momentum if you play each spec (close to) optimal (which I believe I did).

This. And having a 15% damage increase on 10 sec cd is huge for priority fights. Demonic also loses value in fights where you want to delay your Eye Beam for mechanics. Momentum is harder to pull off perfectly but also more forgiving when it comes to mechanics.

[Isilarya]

How are we actually stacking against other classes though? i do somewhere between 9-10.5k, 10.5 being any boss that i can just mongoloid stand on forever and not worry about mechanics but WW, Ret, Arcane, Fury are all beating the dogshit out of me by not small amounts and it makes me feel like im going to be a detriment to the raid, why would you not want to just stack all of the above?

[Deleted]

I really wanted to avoid going back to momentum as I seriously enjoy demonic more but it does higher dps and while I strongly fought it I can't ignore it.

Has anyone tried non-demon blade builds? I hate not being able to control my fury all the time and I don't like the demon blades gameplay at all. So my question is has anyone been playing with 1/3/1/X/2/X/2 and how does it perform for you?

[Cytraz]

How are we actually stacking against other classes though? i do somewhere between 9-10.5k, 10.5 being any boss that i can just mongoloid stand on forever and not worry about mechanics but WW, Ret, Arcane, Fury are all beating the dogshit out of me by not small amounts and it makes me feel like im going to be a detriment to the raid, why would you not want to just stack all of the above?

Are you running the ST build? According to sims, Havoc DH does a lot of DPS ST. Try checking out herodamage.com

Also, dont worry; there will always be 1 DH in the raid, because of the 5% magic debuff, so even if DH were the worst DPS class in the game, you would still bring one

[Curlyfry]

Momentum is fun and is the only talent that changes the monkey brain dead rotation that Demon Hunter into something more engaging and raising the skill cap. Can't wait to top parses on mythic fights again because people are too scared to switch to momentum

[Strifelol]

that is only on sim with perfect placement and timing, in a real raid environment demonic is better imo most of the time.

For me on a ST patchwerk fight these are my results:

-1.5 for nemesis
-1.5 for demonic
-2.7 for 3212223 nemesis

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...DgsNBRYvwqtBx1

On a 3 minute patchwerk fight they are much closer together due to not getting a 2nd meta I'm assuming. Here are the results for my gear level:

-0.4% for nemesis
-0.5% for demonic
-1.7% for 3212223 nemesis

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...2RNyLF4xLfqaWD

If the fight is complete cancer with momentum, demonic is a very viable option. Otherwise, momentum will win in almost every fight. You guys should play whatever talent you want though. Your gear may sim better with demonic and some might sim better with momentum. Play what you want, doesn't matter what I say or what numbers show because in the end you're going to do what you want anyway. PLUS they are really close to each other. I prefer to play whatever is the most optimal even if it's a small gain as long as it's the best for that fight and it's viable and that's why I will be going Momentum unless the fight doesn't allow me to.

[evermynd]

I haven't read too much into this thread but I wanna point out a few things.

In pure single target, demonic is realistically equal to momentum.

When people try to claim huge differences in aoe, they are quoting hectic add cleave sims which are nothing like how uldir fights actually are. Hectic add cleave spawns a lot of adds very frequently. The more aoe, the more demonic falls behind.

[Deleted]

Another day into looking in this and dummy testing. I'm getting better cleave damage as demonic and equal single target. Since I actually like demonic more, I'm good.

- - - Updated - - -

Strife, I seriously don't get it. You're showing us sims where the difference is 194 dps for you. That is 1.5%.

I for the life of me can't understand you, this is a sim and you keep advocating for a spec being better with such a tiny dps gain that results in:
1) A massive drop in survivability (demon form & leech)
2) Turning your main movement abilities into dps & fury regen abilities greatly hindering movement

And in total, being way more rng and fight based meaning you might even lose more dps against a spec that can be executed perfectly in nearly every scenario.

[Strifelol]

Another day into looking in this and dummy testing. I'm getting better cleave damage as demonic and equal single target. Since I actually like demonic more, I'm good.

- - - Updated - - -

Strife, I seriously don't get it. You're showing us sims where the difference is 194 dps for you. That is 1.5%.

I for the life of me can't understand you, this is a sim and you keep advocating for a spec being better with such a tiny dps gain that results in:
1) A massive drop in survivability (demon form & leech)
2) Turning your main movement abilities into dps & fury regen abilities greatly hindering movement

And in total, being way more rng and fight based meaning you might even lose more dps against a spec that can be executed perfectly in nearly every scenario.

Okay let me write it out for you in a way you might understand. It helps if you read it slowly.

In a patchwewrk fight they sim very close together and the difference is very small BUT there are 0 patchwerk fights in uldir, once adds spawn momentum starts to pull ahead making that 1.5% turn into lets say (For an example, not an exact number) 4.5%. You can play whatever talent you want in the end it doesn't really matter unless you're in a guild pushing for world first.


I enjoy playing the most optimal spec per fight regardless if it is demonic or momentum or even nemesis. And as of right now momentum is the most optimal even if it's only 1.5% ahead. I trust in my mechanical abilities as a player to look at timers and plan my movement ahead of time when I'm playing momentum. I also know how to not fel rush myself into death or into fire or things that are bad. If you don't want to play the most optimal spec because of x reason, that's okay, I'm not telling you you need to play momentum and no one else should either.

[Deleted]

Another day into looking in this and dummy testing. I'm getting better cleave damage as demonic and equal single target. Since I actually like demonic more, I'm good.

- - - Updated - - -

Strife, I seriously don't get it. You're showing us sims where the difference is 194 dps for you. That is 1.5%.

I for the life of me can't understand you, this is a sim and you keep advocating for a spec being better with such a tiny dps gain that results in:
1) A massive drop in survivability (demon form & leech)
2) Turning your main movement abilities into dps & fury regen abilities greatly hindering movement

And in total, being way more rng and fight based meaning you might even lose more dps against a spec that can be executed perfectly in nearly every scenario.

1: Lifeleech is so little that it is neglectable. Having 30% every 30 seconds is almost always useless. You can't hold on eyebeam just to plan on utilicing the 30% leech. You are dps, you do it when it's ready, end of story. Healers are there for a reason. If you would come across a situation where 30% leech would have saved you your healer is to blame.

2: Here lies the skill difference between momentum and nemesis/demonic: If you know the encounter and are able to plan ahead then you know when to use/not use felrush/retreat. You are able to manage your charges while still maintaining dps. If you can't do that, then don't play momentum. It is harder to play for a reason.

[kliffharry]

I seriously don't understand how people can look at ST sims to decide which spec to play with a class like DH that's all about AOE on cooldowns.

Here is my character simmed for 5 minutes of hectic add cleave with 1 boss: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...Q1EEqRd3SgxJTY

Demonic and Momentum will be favored for fights that require priority burst dps, and that won't really show in any sims either.

[Cytraz]

If looking strictly at a ST situation, Momentum pulls ahead of Demonic by a small percentage.

However, when you look at AoE, this is where Momentum begins to really pull ahead. I have not yet read tactics on the bosses, but if you need to hit 3 or more targets regularly in a bossfight, this is when Momentum should start to pull ahead by quite a bit.

[Deleted]

Okay let me write it out for you in a way you might understand. It helps if you read it slowly.

In a patchwewrk fight they sim very close together and the difference is very small BUT there are 0 patchwerk fights in uldir, once adds spawn momentum starts to pull ahead making that 1.5% turn into lets say (For an example, not an exact number) 4.5%. You can play whatever talent you want in the end it doesn't really matter unless you're in a guild pushing for world first.


I enjoy playing the most optimal spec per fight regardless if it is demonic or momentum or even nemesis. And as of right now momentum is the most optimal even if it's only 1.5% ahead. I trust in my mechanical abilities as a player to look at timers and plan my movement ahead of time when I'm playing momentum. I also know how to not fel rush myself into death or into fire or things that are bad. If you don't want to play the most optimal spec because of x reason, that's okay, I'm not telling you you need to play momentum and no one else should either.

You're quite full of yourself mate. You think you're saying something major that I need to read slowly to get? You're repeating the same thing over 10 threads and ignoring others' arguments entirely.

1: Lifeleech is so little that it is neglectable. Having 30% every 30 seconds is almost always useless. You can't hold on eyebeam just to plan on utilicing the 30% leech. You are dps, you do it when it's ready, end of story. Healers are there for a reason. If you would come across a situation where 30% leech would have saved you your healer is to blame.

2: Here lies the skill difference between momentum and nemesis/demonic: If you know the encounter and are able to plan ahead then you know when to use/not use felrush/retreat. You are able to manage your charges while still maintaining dps. If you can't do that, then don't play momentum. It is harder to play for a reason.

1. Agreed, although more survivability never hurt anyone. It's not just raiding, it's also m+ we are discussing.

2. What the demonic advocates are arguing is the risk/higher skill vs reward factor when we are talking about 1.5% and when we all know there will be a number of fights where maintaining perfect momentum uptime will be impossible and will be irrelevant of skill, but mechanics. The only cases that I see is meaningful going momentum is on heavy movement fights with knowing the fight well.

Patchwerk: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...eXbngca7rzayYa

Cleave: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...EsW8LgByAuZ1nb

Heavy movement: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...Mrnphg2VptQkQr