Have classes "devolved" to not match their fantasy playstyle?

[Deleted]

** Wotlk to BFA **


So i've played wotlk mostly , in private servers and now im playing retail. PLayed a bit of legion and now BFA.

But i have this impression and i'd liek to know if you feel the same.

Classes and spec give the feeling they have devolved from what they were supposed to a more generic state.

Caster have become less casters and more of instant casters. Casters had to cast. Now its more of instant casts mostly. Frost mages used to have quick casts doing average dmg except when doing shatter combos. Now most spells that do dmg are instants (comet storm, orb, ice lance). Frostbolt is more of a slowing spell/proccing instants rather than damaging. Warlocks used to be tanky because they were werent mobile. They had just a portal. Pretty much same applies to all casters. Spells have become too long now to cast.

Is this maybe the reason of the rise of melee cleaves?

Melees now. Rogues where used to be about controling rather than damage. Now they have become a better version of warriors (dmg wise) with control. Warriors should do high damage, they are warriors and be tanky with low mobility. I'd say warriors are in right state now (maybe dmg was a bit overtuned). Dks , i dont how how i should feel about them. UH used to stick on targets (couldnt slowed under a certain % if you had no runes), do high dmg ( no healing reduction ) . Now they give the feeling of a generic melee class. Rets are feeling improved.

Yes, now there are more viable specs per class, but they feel empty and not how they were suppsed to be. The examples i mentrion and just a few that straight came to my mind.


What is your opinion?

[Mafic]

Well they tried to take away a lot of instant casts in Legion but in the process Blizz also pruned away caster mobiity and utility. And pruning of melee utility also means that melee can't protect casters/healers from other melee.

So now PVP has become a DPS race like PVE. o.O

[hermansen]

Yes, it feels like classflavor has been steadily removed from WoW, more and more everytime a new expac comes along.

I still like the game for what it is, but I long for the class design of old.

[Malikath]

yes.
classes are shit, they've been pruned to the point some don't even work logically.

[Waldor666]

Yes. People say, choose the class you enjoy playing. When really, all of them are the same with the majority having builder/spender mechanics. The visuals might be different but at the end of the day, its the same.

[Mafic]

I am glad you cited Rogue because this is a good example of how WoW devs don't get class and spec fantasy.

In Legion, they thought removing Shadow step, garrote, Gouge, Blind and poisons was a good idea for Sub. In turn, they allowed Sub to be able to spam Shadow Dance due to PVE reasons which had major consequences in PVP. Being able to shadow strike teleport non stop was simply broken lol as casters/healers couldn't escape shadow strike spam.

In WotLK, Sub Rogue felt balanced because your backstabs actually did a lot of damage if you were behind your target and pooling energy for ambush felt good for big damage that required set ups as shadow dance was a major cool down. Compare to recently before the nerfs in BFA, Sub was pumping out damage just spamming shadow strike...ZZZZZZZZZzzzz.

Combat in WotLK was about doing lots of steady damage and with some burst and in combat utility.

Assassination was also about burst but with Envenom windows.

Rogues had a good mix of control, burst and sustained back then.

No wonder WotLK is considered the pinnacle of PVP. Some will come along and say MoP was better because it was a lot more homogenized in that everyone had the tools to succeed.

But I think class fantasy was at its highest in WotLK/Cata/MoP. Since WoD it has been downhill really.

[Deleted]

I am glad you cited Rogue because this is a good example of how WoW devs don't get class and spec fantasy.

In Legion, they thought removing Shadow step, garrote, Gouge, Blind and poisons was a good idea for Sub. In turn, they allowed Sub to be able to spam Shadow Dance due to PVE reasons which had major consequences in PVP. Being able to shadow strike teleport non stop was simply broken lol as casters/healers couldn't escape shadow strike spam.

In WotLK, Sub Rogue felt balanced because your backstabs actually did a lot of damage if you were behind your target and pooling energy for ambush felt good for big damage that required set ups as shadow dance was a major cool down. Compare to recently before the nerfs in BFA, Sub was pumping out damage just spamming shadow strike...ZZZZZZZZZzzzz.

Combat in WotLK was about doing lots of steady damage and with some burst and in combat utility.

Assassination was also about burst but with Envenom windows.

Rogues had a good mix of control, burst and sustained back then.

No wonder WotLK is considered the pinnacle of PVP. Some will come along and say MoP was better because it was a lot more homogenized in that everyone had the tools to succeed.

But I think class fantasy was at its highest in WotLK/Cata/MoP. Since WoD it has been downhill really.

I agree with you, in Linch King Class fantasy it was a great part of the game, but they start change and change, and now even tame a rare pet it's a meh thing, The rares finish in MOP. I don't know what i have that other classes don't have...well a pet, at least i still have the pet.

[Powerogue]

If frost/fire mages were previously all about long cast time spells, with none of the comboing that we have now, then they would be terrible.

I think outlaw got a really good class fantasy going for it but they cut a lot of the pirate themes just as I finally got some sweet pirate mogs. Not happy about that. >: (

The initial legion "split" of the abilities where assassination got the poisons/bleeds, shadow got the stealth related stuff, and outlaw got the aoe felt right. It was dumb having gouge as a combat rogue when every single ability seemed to make it fall off.

[Craaazyyy]

If frost/fire mages were previously all about long cast time spells, with none of the comboing that we have now, then they would be terrible.

I think outlaw got a really good class fantasy going for it but they cut a lot of the pirate themes just as I finally got some sweet pirate mogs. Not happy about that. >: (

The initial legion "split" of the abilities where assassination got the poisons/bleeds, shadow got the stealth related stuff, and outlaw got the aoe felt right. It was dumb having gouge as a combat rogue when every single ability seemed to make it fall off.

cata fire mage was awesome, same with mop.. after that it became a joke(i guess wod was still good in PVE)

and tbh i prefer combat over outlaw any day

[Noctiphobia]

I disagree. Some specs became more generic, and some got closer to the fantasy. And your examples are pretty bad, to be honest. For example legion affliction warlock was great in this respect: literally all of their damage came from dots, even the main spammable spell was a channel. And they also were pretty much the tankiest DPS class. And literally the only additional mobility they got since TBC is the gateway (on 90s CD), so not much changed in this respect, and demonic circle was optional (in 2v2 many took mortal coil instead, making them even more immobile). Now, in BFA they ruined it (shadowbolt is back, deathbolt got added, tankiness is gone), but legion affliction was in my opinion great in respect of fantasy playstyle.
The frost mage example is also wrong. Deep shatter is a thing. Ice lances and brain freeze existed back in wotlk (and I'm pretty sure ice lance did relatively more damage than it does now), and there's also glacial spike/ray of frost and ebonbolt (all of them hard casted). So yeah, there's comet storm (20s CD) and frozen orb (1 min CD), which in no way make mage less reliant on hard casts. You're not going to kill anyone without hard casting a lot. And also PoM poly is gone, so you have to actually hard cast CC as well.
I'm pretty sure that casters have to cast at least as much as they did in WOTLK, and possibly even more (remember how shadowfury -> chaos bolt -> conflagrate consisted of 2 instants and 1 fast spell?), and melee classes got more mobility, which is why nobody plays anything ranged in PVP (besides mages who can still kite decently, and beast mastery hunters, who use only instants). It's not that caster fantasy is gone, it's just a matter of balance.
And don't forget how arms warriors had to change to berserker stance just to punch a mage in the face to make him stop casting. Is this the fantasy playstyle you're looking for?

[Luxeley]

Blizzard doesn't understand pvp in their game hence the reason participation has been on a steady and certain decline. The problem is the classes are completely homogenized or specialized which means they somewhere in the middle and it's evolved into a terrible play style. To add kerosine into the mix - about 90% of class development is focused on PVE, so Pvp gets the shaft and the Pvp hardly fill the gap.

[Just1c3]

One of the things that fucks with me is Paladin mobility. I mean, there's plenty of other issues, most likely, and different people are going to like/dislike things about their classes. I don't play most classes often enough to really feel qualified to critique them. But I do play a lot of Paladin, and Paladin is one of the few classes I've played long enough to have watched it evolve. So, fairly high mobility used to be part of Paladin class fantasy, and I guess now it isn't, and I can't for the life of me wrap my head around why they would take it away. If Warriors can jump 30 yards forward wearing 80-120 pounds of iron and steel, then why the hell can't my Paladin use holy magic to boost forward? We used to have Speed of Light, Pursuit of Justice, Long Arm of the Law (not all at once, granted, but still, mobility options). I get it, Warriors have Charles Atlas Superpower, and that's fine, but my line of thinking here is that Holy magic would be even MORE effective than simply being ridiculously strong. All Warriors are Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime, I get it, but if I have literal magic powers granted to me by a divine force, then at least in theory, I should be able to beat Arnold in a footrace, that's all I'm saying.

[Charge me Doctor]

** Wotlk to BFA **


So i've played wotlk mostly , in private servers and now im playing retail. PLayed a bit of legion and now BFA.

But i have this impression and i'd liek to know if you feel the same.

Classes and spec give the feeling they have devolved from what they were supposed to a more generic state.

Caster have become less casters and more of instant casters. Casters had to cast. Now its more of instant casts mostly. Frost mages used to have quick casts doing average dmg except when doing shatter combos. Now most spells that do dmg are instants (comet storm, orb, ice lance). Frostbolt is more of a slowing spell/proccing instants rather than damaging. Warlocks used to be tanky because they were werent mobile. They had just a portal. Pretty much same applies to all casters. Spells have become too long now to cast.

Is this maybe the reason of the rise of melee cleaves?

Melees now. Rogues where used to be about controling rather than damage. Now they have become a better version of warriors (dmg wise) with control. Warriors should do high damage, they are warriors and be tanky with low mobility. I'd say warriors are in right state now (maybe dmg was a bit overtuned). Dks , i dont how how i should feel about them. UH used to stick on targets (couldnt slowed under a certain % if you had no runes), do high dmg ( no healing reduction ) . Now they give the feeling of a generic melee class. Rets are feeling improved.

Yes, now there are more viable specs per class, but they feel empty and not how they were suppsed to be. The examples i mentrion and just a few that straight came to my mind.


What is your opinion?

Casters land less hardcasts because there are a lot of ways to interrupt them. LoS (pillars, lagging in-and-out casters back), regular interrupt, CC (stuns, knockbacks, silence), cast bar kickback. The only way to reliably do damage is to make enemy team look the other way for 20 seconds... or have lots of instants.
You are looking at amount of casts and overall damage from instants and think "damn, they used to do way more casting before", they would gladly cast more if they could.

Speaking of frost mage - frostbolt rarely dealt decent damage outside of shatter combo, now shatter combo is different and frostbolt is indeed just a slow and a way to proc your actual damage.

Warlocks are still tanky (and are able to cast thanks to casting circle), not to the point of prot warrior, but they can take beating while their healer was silenced by a shadow priest.

There is just too many interrupts, have a good luck casting something against two melee and a resto shaman. Stun into kick into disoriented into stun into kick... Don't even mention +1s cast time and -25% channel time on all your shit. Great times.


And to answer your question - i disagree that classes devolved to not match their fantasy

[Deleted]

Some classes/specs seem to have had the flavor gone completely or is nearing there, but some specs in particular seem to have an endless amount of flavor, like all the mage specs seem to be really diversified in how they look and match the fantasy of the class, same with outlaw who has been made very different aesthetically from the other specs, giving it identity.

I think a lot of the gameplay also matches this, playing a frost DK does absolutely not feel like a DK, same with ret paladin or arms warrior, given how ret is basically old arms. Warlocks, mages seem to have it best in terms of class fantasy, they're really intact there.