Proof that prot is trash.

[MookieRah]

I like how someone posts logs to counter the argument and then everyone takes turns justifying why it doesn’t matter. This isn’t to say prot isn’t weaker and needs help, but people are exaggerating their badness. I mean, the shear stigma of maining prot alone makes it harder to get runs in, leading to less parses, poorer representation, etc. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

The data clearly shows prot is at the bottom, ergo, it needs buffs. Saying it is complete trash or is something you can’t build a good comp around though is just hyperbole.

[Tehterokkar]

Issue with Protection Warriors is the same issue as Protection Paladins and Vengeance DHs have. They have gaps in mitigation.

Nothing can fix this unless they are completely redesigned or just mega buffed baseline.

Monks and Druids are solid raid tanks because they have steady damage intake. DKs to an extent also, however they require much more careful play with Death Strike usage.

[melzas]

I like how someone posts logs to counter the argument and then everyone takes turns justifying why it doesn’t matter. This isn’t to say prot isn’t weaker and needs help, but people are exaggerating their badness. I mean, the shear stigma of maining prot alone makes it harder to get runs in, leading to less parses, poorer representation, etc. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

The data clearly shows prot is at the bottom, ergo, it needs buffs. Saying it is complete trash or is something you can’t build a good comp around though is just hyperbole.

Someone has to be on the bottom, it doesn't mean they need buff. Being on bottom is not a reason to buff something because, SHOCKER, someone has to be on the bot. You buff warriors, then druids would be the last, and they would cry until they get buffed and so on.

The real issue is whether or not the gap between lowest and highest is noticeable for average player.

[Charge me Doctor]

While I admire this I must say that you're playing with relatively the same team. I would want you to pull that off consistently with pugs, that's where my problem lies. There are some warriors that are doing 13-14 in time with their guild groups, having insane DPS and communication is a big factor that makes those +2 chests possible.

Why? How is that even relevant? Prot warriors are fine, they are not as good as BDK for M+, and not as good as BRM or BDK for progression due to being too punished for fuck-ups and being required to know what's coming next. It's just hard to play prot warrior in its current state, but rewarding, and we know for a fact that majority of players and forum visitors aren't here for a challenge, they are here for easy way to get epics and abandon prot warrior in favor of other tanks or switched role to arms.

[Deleted]

Why? How is that even relevant? Prot warriors are fine, they are not as good as BDK for M+, and not as good as BRM or BDK for progression due to being too punished for fuck-ups and being required to know what's coming next. It's just hard to play prot warrior in its current state, but rewarding, and we know for a fact that majority of players and forum visitors aren't here for a challenge, they are here for easy way to get epics and abandon prot warrior in favor of other tanks or switched role to arms.

Another thing to keep in mind is that he's doing +10-11 runs this reset. Bursting is more of a healer mechanic and Skittish literally does not exist for Prot Warriors as our threat is more than good on AoE with TC spam.

Had he done a +14-15 in time last reset, then you could color me shocked. I don't think doing +10s with a group that has 370 average is anything impressive. I almost managed to two chest a +10 with a pug this week and I only have 359, last week was a lot more difficult (both due to ilevel and affixes).

Edit: in fact, I just checked the logs for Lalasama (https://raider.io/characters/us/thunderhorn/Lalasama). He actually did not get a _SINGLE_ +10 done in time last week and that's with a premade group. I think that's concerning at least.

In any case, I don't think anyone is denying that protection warrior (and of course guardian druids) are in need of changes to make them viable for both raiding and M+. Whether Blizzard will care enough to do something is a different story.

[Caus]

@Cylunaria - What would be your advice to tanking higher m+ keys?

Someone mentioned holes in the mitigation, and that pretty much sums up my problem when tanking aswell. Whenever i dont get rage fast enough to put smthn up when shit hits the fan, i just get deleted. I would like to get the hang of it, but havent been brave enough to try tanking m+ yet, even tho gear is quite ok'ish.

[Cylunaria]

@Cylunaria - What would be your advice to tanking higher m+ keys?

Someone mentioned holes in the mitigation, and that pretty much sums up my problem when tanking aswell. Whenever i dont get rage fast enough to put smthn up when shit hits the fan, i just get deleted. I would like to get the hang of it, but havent been brave enough to try tanking m+ yet, even tho gear is quite ok'ish.

I save block charges near the end of pulls to have them up at the start of the next pull typically if I can. Also just use something during block downtime like wall or LS, you'll typically have stuff back up since you are getting charges back inbetween packs and your block downtime during high damage is less frequent in M+ if played right than In raid settings. It also seems like a lot of people don't understand that there are so many abilities from mobs in dungeons this time around that you can just move out of the way of.

As for all this key pushing nonsense from others I've already explained it before. I could have pushed higher keys just fine, we did our +10 at like the start of the week that week to get it out of the way and then farmed 6's because those gave the max reward. Now we are farming 10's because that gives the max reward. We're maximizing for raid, not for M+. Getting as much loot as we can is more important than pushing keys right now. Pushing keys will probably come this coming week or next when we are comfortable with the loot we have for the rest of the RAID tier.

[Toppy]

Why? How is that even relevant? Prot warriors are fine, they are not as good as BDK for M+, and not as good as BRM or BDK for progression due to being too punished for fuck-ups and being required to know what's coming next. It's just hard to play prot warrior in its current state, but rewarding, and we know for a fact that majority of players and forum visitors aren't here for a challenge, they are here for easy way to get epics and abandon prot warrior in favor of other tanks or switched role to arms.

"Prot warriors are fine, they arent as good at any form of content"

[Charge me Doctor]

"Prot warriors are fine, they arent as good at any form of content"

Exactly, that's the definition of being fine. It's allright. It's decent. They are not as good as OPed tanking specs, who obviously need to be toned down.
You know, you are still able to play and do all types of content, but you have to try harder.

[Deleted]

Exactly, that's the definition of being fine. It's allright. It's decent. They are not as good as OPed tanking specs, who obviously need to be toned down.
You know, you are still able to play and do all types of content, but you have to try harder.

That doesn't apply to Mythic, you can't "try harder". You just get erased from the game. Try tanking Fetid Mythic, a physical fight may I add, as a protection warrior (who supposedly should excel at it). I'd go as far and say that it's probably very difficult if not impossible on the healers. That's something that's broken and shouldn't be a thing, a tank specialized in reducing physical damage can not tank a physical boss because it's too much damage... I'm not sure in what world this is "fine", it's not.

Then again, I have mentioned in the past that if you play a protection warrior in a Mythic raiding guild, then you're being selfish and making it harder for your guild to progress by not being a different tank.

[Cylunaria]

That doesn't apply to Mythic, you can't "try harder". You just get erased from the game. Try tanking Fetid Mythic, a physical fight may I add, as a protection warrior (who supposedly should excel at it). I'd go as far and say that it's probably very difficult if not impossible on the healers. That's something that's broken and shouldn't be a thing, a tank specialized in reducing physical damage can not tank a physical boss because it's too much damage... I'm not sure in what world this is "fine", it's not.

What's even more stupid is that without anger management we'd be way worse off (though I don't know anyone that runs without it).

Hi, I've done pulls on Fetid. Thrash isn't honestly that bad, just block is enough.

[Deleted]

Hi, I've done pulls on Fetid. Thrash isn't honestly that bad, just block is enough.

You won't have block for every single one, and our health pool is so low that it starts demolishing us during enrage. It's a lot more work on the healers then say a monk or a DK (due to their insane HP pool).

[Cylunaria]

You won't have block for every single one, and our health pool is so low that it starts demolishing us during enrage. It's a lot more work on the healers then say a monk or a DK (due to their insane HP pool).

Yeah sure, as my blood DK co-tank who is literally #1 for All-star tanks on WCL in the world is panicking about the idea of dealing with thrashes and wants me to take care of them. I'm sure you actually know the in's and out's of what makes the different tank classes strong and aren't just assuming they are better in every single way.

[Deleted]

Its hilarious how people actually think Prot is ok.
i rerolled and im coming back untill our playstyle is fixed. theres just too many vunerable Windows on Prot, but i cant see them on my brewmaster. I love warriors but goddamn..

[Deleted]

I like the argument with pushing the keys...


Like if it never happened with any tank that keys were pushed on the easy affix weeks

[Deleted]

It's not that prot is bad, it's that everyone else is just better in a systemic and eclipsing way.

Ignore Pain, Demoralizing Shout, Rallying Cry, and Intercept need to be off of the global, though.

And Intimidating Shout. I use that quite often mainly as an interrupt aswell. But all the shouts are on a long CD, so if they remain on the GCD, it wouldn't affect me as much as IP or Intervene do.

I have hopes that Blizzard will address Prot Warriors in the future though, hopefully before the Azshara patch, there's so many complaints that eventually they will have to notice us.

[Deleted]

If IP and demo shout are in gcd, let's put SotR, all monk's beers and every other defensive spell in gcd.

Then let's see how many people are fine with this.

[MookieRah]

Your whole post just went around in circles.
It is objectively worse than the other tanks. Which creates a stigma.

Yes, by objectively worse, it is ranked last. That doesn't denote how much worse it is compared to the others. The stigma the community has with it is built around this idea that it is complete garbage in every category, when in fact it is probably only slightly worse than the others. This stigma taints everything, I've seen this across multiple genres of games in all sorts of competitive levels too. If something is ranked low, it's considered shit, even if it is still a viable option that has strengths.

In this case, people who use Prot will now go into it expecting it to be crap, and when they perform worse than their expectations their first instinct is to blame the spec, not try to solve the problem. Why try when you can just reroll to the best tank spec? The problem then is that more than likely they will find that they struggle with that too, but will more or less try to seek answers as they won't be blaming the spec (although many will still complain that the spec doesn't live up to their expectations as well).

At least Prot has a unique strength, insane AoE dps, which something you can build a M+ team around. It will be sub-optimal, but not unplayably so. Yeah, pugs will be harder, but when are pugs not harder? If you want to push keys... why are you pugging?

There are clearly problems with Prot. I think Ignore Pain is crap, and yeah, stuff on the GCD that shouldn't be on the GCD. It sounds like it doesn't plug & play with just any comp for m+ either. Outside of that though, I'm thinking a good player can still perform well with them, as @Cylunaria is seemingly doing.

[Super Kami Dende]

Not being the best doesn't make you Trash. People use way to much hyperbole these days.

[Deleted]

On the mythic+ leaderboard are like 4 protection warriors in the top 500 runs that is all you need to know.

The spec is not good and awful to play.