Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Skulltaker]

None of what you’re claiming is supported by anything. Everything I am is. The timestone doesn’t make you omniscient. It lets you see the future. Unless Strange went searching for old Cap he wouldn’t know he was there. They’ve always been living in a timeline where Cap lived with Peggy after defeating Thanos. Which is 100% possible since we know 1) it’s possible for them to travel to the past and take action there and 2) they discussed how such time travel creates new realities. It doesn’t create a paradox because he didn’t influence anything that led to him traveling back in time. When you kill Thanos before he can snap it creates a paradox because he never snaps which was the reason you travelled back to kill him as a baby.

No, it isn't, and no, they haven't. The movie clearly tells us that you cannot live in your own past. Period. No exceptions. And being able to see 14 million different outcomes for the future sure as hell makes you omniscient. 1) is a blatant lie, man. We are told specifically that you cannot go to your past and take action there. They can go to the past, which is an action by itself, and thus create a new future. Which Cap going back and meeting Peggy is. And 2) Is utter bullshit. Why would you be able to alter your past, but only in certain instances? What is the difference?

[Baio]

so sad story xd

[Skulltaker]

Then none of the stones could have been gathered. Period. No exceptions. They all visited their own pasts to get those stones. Sorry, but you’re starting from a false premise that’s never stated in the film.

No, they didn't. I'll lay it out for you once more.

They travel back to a point in time. That exact point is in the past shared by them. Them arriving there is an alteration, though. It creates an impossibility, to which the Universe reacts in only one way possible, it branches off and creates a new future. Not one thing they do in the past, they now do in their past. Since they have only been there a few moments, the changes are, of course, minimal. Still, if 2012 Hulk had looked in their direction, he would have seen them standing there. If Professor Hulk, who is now standing there, had done the same thing as Hulk back then in the 2012 Avengers movie, that allyway would have been deserted.

That future can, for the most part, be completely identical to what you experienced as the past, with the major exception that YOU now exist in it. Even if all events play out mostly the same, there is still this timelines you, right where you belong, and subjectively older you who traveled back. If you'd return to where you started, though, and looked back, only you would have existed in your past, not you and older you.

You still with me? Cool.

Because here is what else you can do. You can completely fuck this timeline up with your knowledge. For example, you could kill Hitler. You will now live in a Hitler-free world. The people in the timeline where you departed from, however, will still live in a world where Hitler was a thing. Bear in mind, though, that his reality is not obliged to follow what you know. You may bet on one sports game that you know the outcome off and make a killing, but all of your actions, from buying a loaf of bread to shooting someone, have consequences. If you have a winning streak in betting, someone might decide to shut it down. No more betting on the games means less interest in it, the League shuts down, and so on. This is why Biff getting rich in Back to the future doesn't work.

You cannot say in some instances I can go to my own past and live there, and thus influencing how things play out, 'because it was meant to be', and in others that is not possible. It's, simply put, cheating for the convenience of the plot. It either is possible to go back, change things, or it isn't. If you travel back you acknowledge that your mere presence in the past will alter things, for better or worse. IF Cap travels back in time to eat a sandwich, there must be a pristine timeline where he didn't do that. Since both cannot be the case, you need a new timeline for the when he eats the sandwich.

Cap returns to 100% the same Peggy Carter he knew throughout WW2. But the second he arrived in her time, she became someone new. The 'original' Peggy Carter goes about her day, the 'new' one does too. For one, the doorbell rings, for the other, it doesn't. From Caps perspective, she is 100% the same person he knew, not an 'alternate reality counterpart', but just Peggy. They fought Hydra together, they shared a kiss with Tommy Lee Jones watching, and so on. But the future they have together is new.

This is the only explanation that doesn't create major problems.

The Avengers can go back to these alternate timelines, because for them, this isn't the past. It is in the past, but it isn't their past. They can go to this past and make it their future. Which is why they are able to return the stones. Which is also why they are able to eradicate 2014 Thanos with their Universe unaffected, except for the destruction he caused.

This exact premise is stated 1:1 in the film, by Professor Hulk. Go to the past, it becomes your future. And it will be different from the one you know simply by you being there.

Ask yourself this: If Captain America truly lived with Peggy in the main MCU timeline, what stops him from simply joining the Battle in New York? Tipping Nick Fury off about Hydra? And so on. Simply the possibility of him doing this, since he has free will and all, creates an impossibility. Because he couldn't tip off Nick Fury, because it would change the timeline.

[Svifnymr]

Was watching a video where they talked about Doc Strange having to tell the others that "the one win" was based on a rat freeing Antman.

[Aurrora]

So because he knew what happened to defeat Thanos he knew what would happen after they defeated him? Why would he look beyond the defeat of Thanos? Especially when he was clearly not happy about Tony being forced to sacrifice himself.

Because if Steve Rogers is living out his life in the main MCU timeline there is no future for them except the one in which they win, because Steve Roger's past cannot be changed.

[Prophet June Bug]

So I pirated it, because I didn't want to have to dodge spoilers for 3 months like I did Infinity War in the mine field that is the internet.

Generally a decent watch. I'm not that into Marvel anymore, but I enjoyed it for what it was. The satisfying parts were the restraint from filler fight scenes to focus on character and cohesion, and I commend their restraint on bathos in this particular entry to the franchise. I fucking loathe bathos, so the lack thereof was a big plus.

I was really hoping for a final bloody beatdown between Thanos and the original members, which we got, but then they kinda pulled a DC and brought in the CGI armies and it kinda overshadowed it. Also kinda sad that it was Thanos, but not 'really'. This earlier Thanos didn't really know any of his opponents, so the struggle felt rather hollow.

The one thing that actually caught me off guard was what happened to Black Widow. Really didn't expect them to pull that, but I'm glad they did. Iron Man's sendoff was also handled very well, I loved how they didn't give him any dialogue post-snap. He just drifted of, it felt genuine.

My main gripe is what happened with Cap. I loved how he passed on the mantle, but giving him the life he wanted with Peggy kinda made a lot of his arcs pointless. I'm sure it has already caused a lot of debates, but that's just my view on it. I don't care whether it was an alternate timeline or something, just the idea behind it. Other than that Cap was awesome.
Another is how for a lot of movies they didn't bother exploring the Hulk/Banner dynamic, and then 5 years past and they're alright now. That's the kinda thing the older entries or the 5 year gap should've explored for more characters, but they didn't and it's a missed opportunity (yes I know for Hulk specifically there's issues with Universal, but just generally speaking).

Overall a satisfying conclusion to the Infinity Saga of the MCU. I especially commend it because of how disappointing other major franchises have handled conclusions (cough GoT, SW). And yes, I'm aware it's easier with comics because you can pull material from a dozen timelines and merge them, but it's still a major feat.
That being said, I do hope the next bracket of movies will do something majorly different. They're probably not going to, but it's a nice thought.

[TheFirstOnes]

So I pirated it, because I didn't want to have to dodge spoilers for 3 months like I did Infinity War in the mine field that is the internet.

Generally a decent watch. I'm not that into Marvel anymore, but I enjoyed it for what it was. The satisfying parts were the restraint from filler fight scenes to focus on character and cohesion, and I commend their restraint on bathos in this particular entry to the franchise. I fucking loathe bathos, so the lack thereof was a big plus.

I was really hoping for a final bloody beatdown between Thanos and the original members, which we got, but then they kinda pulled a DC and brought in the CGI armies and it kinda overshadowed it. Also kinda sad that it was Thanos, but not 'really'. This earlier Thanos didn't really know any of his opponents, so the struggle felt rather hollow.

The one thing that actually caught me off guard was what happened to Black Widow. Really didn't expect them to pull that, but I'm glad they did. Iron Man's sendoff was also handled very well, I loved how they didn't give him any dialogue post-snap. He just drifted of, it felt genuine.

My main gripe is what happened with Cap. I loved how he passed on the mantle, but giving him the life he wanted with Peggy kinda made a lot of his arcs pointless. I'm sure it has already caused a lot of debates, but that's just my view on it. I don't care whether it was an alternate timeline or something, just the idea behind it. Other than that Cap was awesome.
Another is how for a lot of movies they didn't bother exploring the Hulk/Banner dynamic, and then 5 years past and they're alright now. That's the kinda thing the older entries or the 5 year gap should've explored for more characters, but they didn't and it's a missed opportunity (yes I know for Hulk specifically there's issues with Universal, but just generally speaking).

Overall a satisfying conclusion to the Infinity Saga of the MCU. I especially commend it because of how disappointing other major franchises have handled conclusions (cough GoT, SW). And yes, I'm aware it's easier with comics because you can pull material from a dozen timelines and merge them, but it's still a major feat.
That being said, I do hope the next bracket of movies will do something majorly different. They're probably not going to, but it's a nice thought.

Why didn't you just watch it in theaters?

[Prophet June Bug]

Why didn't you just watch it in theaters?

All my friends had either already seen it or weren't interested, and tbh I was leaning towards the latter anyway. Marvel has 22 movies under its belt and only 3-4 of them are unique and/or memorable movie experiences. I could write an equally long post as the one you quoted explaining why (bathos, illusion of change, visuals and soundtrack aren't that impressive, etc.), but it all comes down to not finding it worth the ticket price anymore. I still wish to see the movie without being spoiled though, but this thing is so massive it's nigh impossible to do so without accidentally running into them. I experienced 3 months of this during IW. Best get it out of the way.

[TheFirstOnes]

All my friends had either already seen it or weren't interested, and tbh I was leaning towards the latter anyway. Marvel has 22 movies under its belt and only 3-4 of them are unique and/or memorable movie experiences. I could write an equally long post as the one you quoted explaining why (bathos, illusion of change, visuals and soundtrack aren't that impressive, etc.), but it all comes down to not finding it worth the ticket price anymore. I still wish to see the movie without being spoiled though, but this thing is so massive it's nigh impossible to do so without accidentally running into them. I experienced 3 months of this during IW. Best get it out of the way.

We gotta beat Avatar at the Box Office though. D:

[Skulltaker]

Right. And they were already living in a timeline where that impossibility had happened and Steve retired to have 2 kids with Peggy, Steve was closing the loop. As per the people who wrote the film.

He was tired of fighting and retired to be married and have a family. It's possible he did some behind the scenes shit before all the Avengers stuff, but he already knows they win and has accepted the deaths that happened to get those victories. Why would he risk changing their victory against Thanos? It's called the bigger picture. Oh, and there's also the small fact that he was old as shit at that point. Not quite as old as in Endgame, but still pretty damn old.

Nope. Still doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter what he did, but what he could have done. As per the writers of the movie, none of his actions can alter what happens in that future. Which also means that Captain America, as a human being, needs to have the ability to make any descision to do whatever he wants within his capabilities, including writing a letter to SHIELD about Hydra still being in their midst. Which he cannot do, since it would change what has already happened. Which, as the movie explains to us, is impossible. Closing the loop would rob him of his free will.

If you really think Captain America would take all those people killed by Hydra simply lying down, you haven't been paying attention to his previous movies. Doesn't matter how old he is either. Information alone is a huge asset. Look at Fury and all the shit he gets done without lifting a finger.

Also, would you be so kind as to quote me the writers saying this is what happened? Because all I can find is them saying 'this was their intention', not 'this is what happened.'

[Aurrora]

He gets it in the comics

I'm curious tho how it could be seen as political?

Bucky got the shield in the comics too and has a powerset that actually complements it, also Falcon was the worst Captain America ever. Dude had to be blackmailed into helping the heroes in Secret Empire.

[Trassk]

I was amazing how hulk fisted the infinite gauntlet and took his fingers and snapped them which made spiderman come back to life leading to tears when ironman sacrificed himself and pepper giving him a kiss goodbye

Don't use spoiler tags to troll. Infracted.

[Mahourai]

I just saw the Feige AMA and he purposefully avoided the question whether it was an alternate timeline or not. So I guess the definitive answer is TBD.

It's really funny that the filmmakers never bothered to get together and decide what was happening with the Quantum Realm shit. The writing team and the Russos have fundamentally incompatible views on what occurs in the ending, and consequently most of the movie. "It's only the entire second and third acts of the film, I guess we can just wave our hands at it."

[Skulltaker]

Then the entire premise of the film is false. They can’t go back and get infinity stones to change the snap. You guys are really getting hung up on the wrong shit. Exposition about time travel isn’t necessarily accurate in this film. Because nobody who was speaking about it(save the Ancient who only spoke about the effect removing a stone would have) was an expert. They were all making their best guess. Good luck with your arguing that the writers are wrong and you’re right.

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On the “we think” aspect. That means that’s what their intention was. As they specifically state, only the act of removing a stone creates an alternate timeline. Cap’s presence wasn’t disruptive enough to the fabric of reality to do so.

Yes, because they create a new timeline where they're free to do what they want. I don't need luck, it's right there to observe.

Where do they state that only removing the stones creates a new timeline? Clint and Hulk even acknowledge that removing the baseball glove creates a new one, but that it won't be that much different since it's only a baseball glove.

[Mahourai]

No one's dialogue in the film should be taken as an accurate explanation of what is occurring with the Quantum Realm schism worlds. This is obviously true in the non-diegetic sense because the people who produced the film did not make the plot comprehensible and don't understand it themselves, but even in-universe it should not be taken as gospel. Banner clearly has no idea what he's doing and is toying with forces far beyond his comprehension (he accidentally invents a deaging machine while trying to invent time travel). Lang was barely able to experiment with the Quantum world at all. Stark's AI is doing the heavy lifting on the mathematics of "time travel". You might say the Ancient One knows what she's saying is accurate because she's a master sorceress and can just mystically know things, but until Banner namedrops Stephen Strange, the Ancient One may just be bullshitting him to retain possession of the Time Stone at all costs as a weapon to possibly avert her future death.

The movie's writing in this regard (and others) is slipshod and rushed, as though they needed to get the draft done quickly, which is frankly bizarre for the biggest film production in history.

[Fabinas]

Then the entire premise of the film is false. They can’t go back and get infinity stones to change the snap. You guys are really getting hung up on the wrong shit. Exposition about time travel isn’t necessarily accurate in this film. Because nobody who was speaking about it(save the Ancient who only spoke about the effect removing a stone would have) was an expert. They were all making their best guess. Good luck with your arguing that the writers are wrong and you’re right.

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On the “we think” aspect. That means that’s what their intention was. As they specifically state, only the act of removing a stone creates an alternate timeline. Cap’s presence wasn’t disruptive enough to the fabric of reality to do so.

They are not "changing" the snap. They are not going back in time to stop the first snap from happening since they cannot do that. They do a second snap to reverse the effects of the first. And to achieve that, they get infinity stones from the past, returning them promptly.

Stop being so thick about it. You're just arguing to save face.

[Skulltaker]

It’s the part where the Ancient One draws magical timelines in the air. And Clint and Hulk don’t know what they’re talking about. They were guessing with zero evidence.

Yes, but the timeline she is drawing is already the new one, because in the original timeline she never met with Banner. She just uses the stone as an extreme example, she doesn't say that this is the only instance where you change anything.

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They did change the snap in the sense that it was no longer the end of all those people. And getting those stones let them change the future. Which is different than them not being able to change past events that were the impetus for them going back in the first place.

No, they didn't. They simply made two more snaps in addition to the original two. All those people still died.

And I am asking you again: Quote me the writers where they say 'This is what happened.', and not 'this is what we wanted to happen.' Because these two are not the same.

[Skulltaker]

No, it’s not. She specifically draws it from the point the stone is removed.



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See, that’s the writers saying specifically what their intention was. As such, that’s specifically what happened. The MCU may retcon their intentions, but this is what we know right now.

Yes, but that point is in the future. And that future is not the Avengers past. Because you cannot live in your own past, because it would remove free will and choice from your existance. Or rather, as a consequence of your free will and choice, you'd alter your own past. Which you cannot.

Nope, that's just their theory. It also doesn't say taking an infinity stone is the only action. It just says that taking one definitly ends up creating a new one. So does taking a baseball glove, or living in a past you're not supposed to be in. It's not a fact, and it also doesn't work. Steve would have to have the ability to do whatever he wants, which includes telling people about HYDRA, which he cannot do, because it alters the past. Which is impossible. Cool theory, but these people have no idea what they are talking about. It's also bullshit because we already have an example of a new timeline without a single stone being removed: Loki escapes. So, there, theory busted.

Also, if you quote someone, please provide a link.

[Skulltaker]

Why would it remove free will and choice? He’s frozen in a block of ice and then he never crosses paths with himself when he’s not. You’re making zero sense. He’s not reliving his past, he’s living his future in the past. Something they actually discuss before they travel there. You’re essentially making a logic error they tried to prevent with exposition.

And him making that choice in this film doesn’t remove his free will either. It’s simply the choice he decided to make. If you really want to go that route, none of them had free will. Strange locked their choices when he put them in the endgame.

Because in that past he cannot do everything he should be able to do. He cannot go outside. He cannot meet Peggy's friends and colleagues. He cannot even meet the postman, the milkman, whomever. Everybody knows him. But we know Peggy Carter got married, and rather early as well. So there was someone who officiated the marriage. Which means Steve Rogers needs to have an ID. Which means people know he lived. Which also means that SHIELD looked into it, because they look into everything. Which means HYDRA knows. And so on.

His Kids can never bring home any friends. Or he cannot meet them. He can never meet his sons or daughters boy- or girlfriends. Drop them off at school. Go on a vacation with them. Because everybody knows Steve Rogers. He's still in PSAs when Peter Parker is in high school. He has his own trading cards. By the End of WW2, everybody in the west knows his face. He even looks like himself in 2023. He cannot tell SHIELD about Hydra. And so on. So he can not be there.

[Fabinas]

They did change the snap in the sense that it was no longer the end of all those people. And getting those stones let them change the future. Which is different than them not being able to change past events that were the impetus for them going back in the first place.

Their plan was to get the gauntlet from Thanos and "fix" the snap. Not change past events. When they found out the stones were destroyed by Thanos, this wasn't possible anymore unless they retrieved the stones from the past.

They shaped their future using items from the past, returning them afterwards. Stop insisting, you got it all wrong.