Kaldorei as Forsaken in 8.1: ..Why?

[masterjc]

as far as I remember (correct me if I a msitaken), only humans could be risen as Undead b Val'Kyr of Sylvanas
during Quests of Silverpine, Alliance humans retreat and 7th legion uses it's Dwarf/gnome/worgen/NElf troops only. because if killed, they cannot be ressurected. and human refugees on Fenris Isle willingly become Worgen to avoid reanimating into Undead after death

and WTF. why can now Sylvanas raise everybody into Undeads?
almost any race can be undead, even Demons. but not everyone has powers to do so

during Battle for Lordaeron Sylvanas still manages raise both Horde and Alliance races as Undead.
now raising N Elven rangers?

and worse part: lots of times has Blizzard stated that Undeads of Sylvanas have free will. still, somehow almost all of them simply go for Stockholme Syndrom as soon as they are raised..

[Joodoc]

At some point blizzard need to confirm what happens when an undead is brought back, are the same being or not. Do they have free will or not... they need to explain why undead nelves don't hate sylvannas for cursing them.

They have clarified many times, they are the same being. There is even examples of it in game, when the tidesage dies and is brought back, he still wants to be with his family. They reject him, and he has more of a temper than he used to about it, but he still wanted his family and wanted them safe, he was the same being.

And as to why, it's possible it's the basic will to live. They died fighting for their race, however they were given a second chance at life. Yes it was for the enemy, but when the options are be rejected by your former people and fight for the enemy, or actually snuffing out your existence entirely, not many people will choose death.

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as far as I remember (correct me if I a msitaken), only humans could be risen as Undead b Val'Kyr of Sylvanas
during Quests of Silverpine, Alliance humans retreat and 7th legion uses it's Dwarf/gnome/worgen/NElf troops only. because if killed, they cannot be ressurected. and human refugees on Fenris Isle willingly become Worgen to avoid reanimating into Undead after death

and WTF. why can now Sylvanas raise everybody into Undeads?
almost any race can be undead, even Demons. but not everyone has powers to do so

during Battle for Lordaeron Sylvanas still manages raise both Horde and Alliance races as Undead.
now raising N Elven rangers?

and worse part: lots of times has Blizzard stated that Undeads of Sylvanas have free will. still, somehow almost all of them simply go for Stockholme Syndrom as soon as they are raised..

There are different kinds of raising. Animating skeletons is not raising undead. raising undead can produce forsaken with a will, or mindless undead like in scholo. In this case, they are not raising undead, they are just animating the bones, more like puppeteering than actual animation.

[vertigo12]

This example of Summermoon only serves to show the unpredictability of the effects of undeath. This has long been documented and seen throughout Forsaken lore, and has most recently been restated by Lilian Voss, as something that affects everyone differently. Summermoon and Zelling and Capt. Stone are all on the same spectrum - just some it has affected to the degree where they do not know their allegiance or their place in the world (e.g. Zelling), whereas others are closer to the other end where they do (e.g. Summermoon). Summermoon is not an exception to the 'free will' argument, but merely just another example of how the nature of becoming undead affects everyone's mentality differently. Blizzard have long documented that in their Forsaken characters throughout WoW so it is nothing to do with bad writing or even retconning - it's just an example of the unpredictability of becoming undeath. Let's not forget there's still the possibility Summermoon will react to this differently later on down the line. Just because we're not seeing it right now it does not mean we will not later.

Summermoon's case was no unpredictable case. Remember Sylvanas and Summermoon have a personal conversation on a very intimate level although they might have been of different faction. Summermoon was able to see the pain and experience of Sylvanas who is a defender of her people, the Highborne and Quel'thalas when back then the Alliance was the aggressor thru Arthras' corruption. She saw that no matter how much she wanted to defend her people or Homeland her efforts can always end up in vain as she has no capability on her own to save everyone.

That was the mirroring propaganda why Sylvanas-Arthas Quel'thalas invasion have been included as cameo or flashback on Sylv's Warbringers as well as the turnout of events thru quests in game.
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actually for the night elves we know exactly what happens after death, they become wisps and go help the grass grow in more ways then one.
a second death to a undead night elf would simply free the soul to elune's grace.

This has been my point. Like Sylvanas always say: What Joy is there in this curse.

Perhaps not all NE wanted to become wisps they might wanted to just die off and have rest in peace and not be of eternal service to some agent.

The next question is, will the NE even accept them back in their ranks? They are xenophobes and it would be travesty on their culture and religion for something like risen NE undead be included among the living. Next is will Alliance too accept them as well?

Invasion and war always resolve to loss. Lose of life, belongings, loved ones, home.

[Deleted]

Summermoon's case was no unpredictable case. Remember Sylvanas and Summermoon have a personal conversation on a very intimate level although they might have been of different faction. Summermoon was able to see the pain and experience of Sylvanas who is a defender of her people, the Highborne and Quel'thalas when back then the Alliance was the aggressor thru Arthras' corruption. She saw that no matter how much she wanted to defend her people or Homeland her efforts can always end up in vain as she has no capability on her own to save everyone.

Yeah I get that, that's my whole point - the fact that it has affected Summermoon differently to, for example, Zelling and Capt. Stone just further proves what Lilian says about the nature of turning undead affecting people's mentality differently. It has long been a part of Forsaken lore that Blizzard have told throughout WoW and Lilian restating it in the latest expansion just reaffirms this position.

[vertigo12]

Yeah I get that, that's my whole point - the fact that it has affected Summermoon differently to, for example, Zelling and Capt. Stone just further proves what Lilian says about the nature of turning undead affecting people's mentality differently. It has long been a part of Forsaken lore that Blizzard have told throughout WoW and Lilian restating it in the latest expansion just reaffirms this position.

Yes they retain character but at some point it changes them much like their new form. I forgot the Worgen NPC who betrayed his people and become undead and one of the boss in SFK.

We can conclude that there is a form of retention of memory and recollection from past living episode of life. They can remember their families, their experience being a live. I'm not sure though if they feel the sensation of the moment of their death or if they experience PTSD and flashbacks of dying moments inside their thought/mind.

Perhaps WoW will expand on this.

We will see what will happen once Jaina's salvaged body beneath the ocean floor be raised as Forsaken and how the conversion would affect him.

[Knslyr]

I don't find it that odd that new forsaken, regardless of race align themself with the rest of the Forsaken.
It's been shown several times that raised people becomes entire different persons, few of them can hold on to who they once were, and just cling to one thing in life they really cared about, such as family.
Lilian Voss seemed to only hang on to her hatred for her father. Thomas Zelling only keept his love for his family. Nanthanos seems to only care about Sylvanas, be it loyalty, duty or love. Sylvanas is a bit of a special case, but even she were mostly just about a singular goal as well, the death of Arthas, as seen with her suicide from the Frozen Throne. Now she is even more unique though due to having find new purposes to exist.

I think it varies between people and their mental fortitude in their former life that decides how much of the person they once were they can cling to. I don't know Amalia Stones deal and what she really cared for. Delaryn died with a feeling of betrayal and hate towards Elune, perhaps that was all she kept in death.

[Deleted]

I don't find it that odd that new forsaken, regardless of race align themself with the rest of the Forsaken.
It's been shown several times that raised people becomes entire different persons, few of them can hold on to who they once were, and just cling to one thing in life they really cared about, such as family.
Lilian Voss seemed to only hang on to her hatred for her father. Thomas Zelling only keept his love for his family. Nanthanos seems to only care about Sylvanas, be it loyalty, duty or love. Sylvanas is a bit of a special case, but even she were mostly just about a singular goal as well, the death of Arthas, as seen with her suicide from the Frozen Throne. Now she is even more unique though due to having find new purposes to exist.

I think it varies between people and their mental fortitude in their former life that decides how much of the person they once were they can cling to. I don't know Amalia Stones deal and what she really cared for. Delaryn died with a feeling of betrayal and hate towards Elune, perhaps that was all she kept in death.

This would be totally consistent with the Forsaken lore that Blizzard has told throughout WoW, whereby they find it very difficult to experience positive emotion or empathy and retain largely feelings of negativity and amorality. Just look at all the characters you mentioned and the feelings that now predominantly seem to drive them, there is very little positive emotions that drive these characters to what they have become, aside from some clear affection from Nathanos towards Sylvanas and Zelling towards his family. Sylvanas herself began to experience it again during Warcrimes, where she started to believe her and Vareesa could rekindle their sisterhood again, and start new lives together in the Undercity - she started to dream of a life with love, friendship, family, belonging, a reason to live, and something to fight for. But then Vereesa changed her mind at the last minute and it devastated Sylvanas, and after that she swore she would never dream of a life of hope and love ever again.

[Baroclinic]

Given this new info of Kaldorei now being reborn as Dark Rangers and possibly other Forsaken in 8.1 What makes them willing to serve an evil force that slayed them and changed them to that new form and expected to fight against their own race?

All Forsaken still have free will, correct? Sylvanas has zero abilities in bending the will of anyone to her control? If so, then ...I do not see any reason why the Kaldorei Forsaken will agree to serve, especially when the militia in Andorhal immediately rebelled against the Forsaken when they were revived.

Judging from the conversation with a certain Dark Ranger in the Hunter's hall, it seems like those raised by Sylvannas' aren't 100% completely happy about it... and I suspect "free will" only happens when it suits her purpose.

[vertigo12]

Judging from the conversation with a certain Dark Ranger in the Hunter's hall, it seems like those raised by Sylvannas' aren't 100% completely happy about it... and I suspect "free will" only happens when it suits her purpose.

Death can catch you by surprise. If you are not afraid of dying and you are prepared to die then it wouldn't be a problem. There are those who seeks an honorable death and perhaps that would be one of their personal goals in life. See Saurfang as he actively seeks his own death. Maybe the likes of his type when once converted back to "life" in an undead form would find themselves in unrest. There are also those who experience death who wished to continue living or who claims "I don't want to die, I am not yet ready to die". Once they experience a new life in undeath, they might find it as joy that they may continue living.

"In the end, death claims us all." - Sylvanas W.

[Hell-Nicø]

Given this new info of Kaldorei now being reborn as Dark Rangers and possibly other Forsaken in 8.1 What makes them willing to serve an evil force that slayed them and changed them to that new form and expected to fight against their own race?

All Forsaken still have free will, correct? Sylvanas has zero abilities in bending the will of anyone to her control? If so, then ...I do not see any reason why the Kaldorei Forsaken will agree to serve, especially when the militia in Andorhal immediately rebelled against the Forsaken when they were revived.

That's THE biggest plothole the forsaken suffer from. They are supposed to be "free" and yet act as mindless drone for Sylvanas, slaughtering their former comrade and family as soon as they are raised...

That shit makes no sens.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more the answer seems to be that undeath turn people evil, extremely sadistic and without any attachment to their previous life (with just a very small attachment to that past life left).
This is how most forsaken and Sylvanas herself seem to be.

They are free, nobody is mindcontroling them, but they are VERY different than what they were.

So in that regrade it makes sense, but Blizzard seems to have a very hard time clearly puting that into words and sticking with it.

[osmo]

That's THE biggest plothole the forsaken suffer from. They are supposed to be "free" and yet act as mindless drone for Sylvanas, slaughtering their former comrade and family as soon as they are raised...

That shit makes no sens.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more the answer seems to be that undeath turn people evil, extremely sadistic and without any attachment to their previous life (with just a very small attachment to that past life left).
This is how most forsaken and Sylvanas herself seem to be.

They are free, nobody is mindcontroling them, but they are VERY different than what they were.

So in that regrade it makes sense, but Blizzard seems to have a very hard time clearly puting that into words and sticking with it.

The horde... has a nice small questline about this.
basicly it comes down to... yes they have free will, but because their old friends/fam/loved ones etc aka humans , dont recognize them anymore of shun them for what they have become... they have no other place but to join the forsaken.

its kinda like my brother he went from my human brother to a hipster
we dont want him in the family anymore so he now crowds with other hipsters, while we try to avoid contact with him
free will but saver in a crowd, because everytime i see him i try to cut off his manbun

[Hellspawn]

The horde... has a nice small questline about this.
basicly it comes down to... yes they have free will, but because their old friends/fam/loved ones etc aka humans , dont recognize them anymore of shun them for what they have become... they have no other place but to join the forsaken.

For random dude in the village that may makes sense. But not for someone who fought this stuff the last 10000Years these elfs would rather be dammed forever then fighting their own kind... and work under the guide of the one who burned their homeland.

[osmo]

For random dude in the village that may makes sense. But not for someone who fought this stuff the last 10000Years these elfs would rather be dammed forever then fighting their own kind... and work under the guide of the one who burned their homeland.

i agree and disagree its like i get why nathos (f him btw) joins, but the tide sage ( to keep it bfa relevant) not really, just because his fam doesnt recognize him anymore and his kid called him a monster?!?!

lets just say that no matter the past you rather be in a group then alone as forsaken.

but i've been irritated alot in the past time.. that i never found a forsaken that just went meh ill go my own way
and i doubt all humans/alliance are euuuwww forsaken lets not hear him/her/it out

but hej small indie company its not like there are books with stories and guidelines they can use

[J012D4N]

its kinda like my brother he went from my human brother to a hipster
we dont want him in the family anymore so he now crowds with other hipsters, while we try to avoid contact with him
free will but saver in a crowd, because everytime i see him i try to cut off his manbun

L M F A O
Best Forsaken vs RL example, ever.
As opposed to Sylvanas, they follow the hipster grand-council of 6.
(Johnny Depp, Jared Leto, Ellen Page, Kristen Stewart, Natalie Portman & James Franco).
Live in Portland, OR (aka the Undercity of Hipsters). So much manbun .....

[Hell-Nicø]

The horde... has a nice small questline about this.
basicly it comes down to... yes they have free will, but because their old friends/fam/loved ones etc aka humans , dont recognize them anymore of shun them for what they have become... they have no other place but to join the forsaken.

its kinda like my brother he went from my human brother to a hipster
we dont want him in the family anymore so he now crowds with other hipsters, while we try to avoid contact with him
free will but saver in a crowd, because everytime i see him i try to cut off his manbun

Well, it would makes sens for the guy dating from the Arthas days, they are now dead for really long andand don't really have anyone else to connect with, outside of the rest of the forsakens.

But for the freshly killed BY THE FORSAKEN THEMSELVES there's literally zero reasons for them to join the Forsaken, if anything they HATE the forsaken and want to spend their undeath killing as many of them as possible like vengeful ghost!

[Zyky]

Actually, that's not what happens. During the Alliance War Campaign in Nazmir, you're tasked to kill Ranger-Captain Areiel, and she shows that she still remembers her past.

Take another read at what I said, because what you said does not rebuke my statement. We know that Sylvanas has the ability to manipulate memories. We learn this in Traveler: The Spiral Path, where the information given is that Forsaken are not instantly reborn with free will and it takes further magic(from Val'kyr) to grant them free will and remembrance of their past.

[vipers]

Sylvanas might not have direct mind control powers, but she does the same thing abusers do to the people they are in relationships with.
Isolate their "partners" from their old friends (the events in Arathi Highlands in "Before the Storm") and pretend to be the ONLY one that will take them in.

Sylvanas control by fear

[Deleted]

Oh, because someone further up mentioned Velonara in the Hunter class order hall, she tells you that she really wasn't happy about being raised as an undead by Sylvanas, but she serves her anyway.
I don't mean she is under mindcontrol, but to me it seemed more like 'Well, now she damned me into her service, what else am I to do?'
"I fell in battle as the mad prince cut a black scar through the land I loved. But at least I was at peace, I suppose. For a time. Until the Banshee Queen pulled me back from beyond and damned my soul into her service."
This seems like a Sylvanas story too: fell in battle against Arthas, went to heaven, got pulled back and now serves as undead. Though unlike Sylvanas she is not consumed by hatred for the one who raised her. And you know what I think makes the actual difference? The free will thing. Arthas bound Sylvanas to her will, made her helplessly watch what he made her do to her homeland. So she tried to rebel and at last when she succeeded, she wanted to pay it all back to him.
But if you raise them without all the enslavement stuff, you have an undead that may be furious at first, but once said undead calms down a bit, what better would they do with their lives than live among the Forsaken? They may try and kill themselves again, but they might be doubtful if they'd still be welcome in the afterlife they were before or simply not want to commit suicide.

[Ielenia]

Wait ... what?
- Lordaeron/Capital City prior to the Scourge invasion was the GEM of the Eastern Kingdoms.
- It had upstanding citizens ... they had traumatic deaths, awoke from death altered, scared & afraid. In many cases they went to seek humans/family, which lead to violent acts against them.
No by "base" I mean once undeath began & during it's persistence. Whom they WERE prior is merely a part of whom they are in undeath.
Don't know if you've noticed, but most undead "aren't all there" (no I don't mean physically). They're all somewhat morally/mentally altered & different. Their former selves & who they are now would be distinguishable. Foal might be an exception (always has to be one ...). He's Forsaken Pope John Paul

That's not what "base" means. By "base twisted concepts of morality" it implies their morals were already "twisted" from the get-go, as in, before they died.

Undeath dulls your physical senses, but dished untold amounts of damage on your psyche. To feel maggots wouldn't bother you near as much as seeing it, and processing that w/o the physical stimuli. Mental stresses are much stronger.
You can essentially think of all Forsaken as being given a helpful serving of severe PTSD, with a side salad of Schizophrenia.
They work their way towards normal, but like ... no.

The only time I recall seeing undeath itself affecting someone mentally is when they are raised soon after a brutal death, which is when the undead would be filled with such a rage that would make them almost berserker.

Wow. Shunning? The Alliance actively hunted/killed many Forsaken prior to the establishment of their collective. Imprisoned them, tested on them.

Imprisoned and experimented on them? May I have a source on that?

Again, on the morality note (torturing/atrocious actions). Forsaken are not bound by, and do not apply normal morality to their thought process like a human would. If the scale is between normal & completely f'd, most're in the middle. 'ish.

Except they sure get riled up if their own are "tortured and/or suffer atrocious actions".

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Take another read at what I said, because what you said does not rebuke my statement. We know that Sylvanas has the ability to manipulate memories. We learn this in Traveler: The Spiral Path, where the information given is that Forsaken are not instantly reborn with free will and it takes further magic(from Val'kyr) to grant them free will and remembrance of their past.

Can I have a direct quote, please? I don't have that book to double-check.

[Zyky]

Can I have a direct quote, please? I don't have that book to double-check.

"Upon first being raised, a Forsaken does not have free will. It takes more concentrated magic to release an undead's mind." - pg20

Also as source of reference I'll link you to the character in question throughout the book.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Reigol_Valdread

Worth mentioning that he served directly under and reported to Varian only, but still served Sylvanas unwaveringly.