[Spoiler] The Alliance does X in Zuldazar and Baine's immidiate reaction is:

[salate]

Didnt the tauren always try to avoid any kind of blooshed?
Pretty logical in terms of race

[Octavius]

The Horde still has half the Zandalari fleet, and the attack was on the Zandalari capital, which wasn't even Horde-aligned prior to the expansion. They're on the back foot, but they're nowhere near a total loss. The other sidestory after all confirms that Horde did actually claim most of Northern Kalimdor after the War of Thorns and the Alliance are hesitant to commit forces to Darkshore until Tyrande disobeys Anduin and engages single-handed. On top of that, as has been pointed out, Baine would have them negotiate as a beaten faction, after having started the war with a preemptive, unannounced attack and genocide. The terms would be crippling and that's if most of the Horde even complied, when victory or death is their credo and when their leader has zero motive to capitulate because for her it's also zero sum. The Horde has suffered its first setback in a war it was doing decently in, and with the woman who's father was just killed and city was just nearly sacked by an Alliance attack present, he talks about surrendering.

Oh please. Victory or death is the credo of the orcs only, at best. Look what kind of warchief you have.
Anyway, from the datamining "Our fleet is in ruin" by talanji and "The alliance is tighting his grip, victory is in their grasp" by Nathanos. If even that kind of bootlicking ranger admits that, means something I guess. While the alliance stricked at Zuldazar, Tyrande DID attack darkshore and, seeing the presence of a warfront, has at least gained a permanent foothold. Sure the horde has most of northern kalimdor (even if various quests show kaldorei resistence grounps here and there), like, still from quests, we learn the alliance is assaulting hillsbrad and silverpine and we rebuilt Stromgarde. Again, without the soon to come senseless plot twist we'll get from Sylvanas 'cause fanboys, the situation is most likely to get worse for the horde. And again, now could be the time to parley to not waste the gain from the ashenvale/darkshore invasion. It's for sure a thing some alliance leaders will not want the peace, but Baine is not omniscent and the try is worth in any case*.

*I'm not stating an universal truth "BAINE IS RIGHT YOU IDIOT, YOU'VE LOST" like many of you usually do (nearly every time, without sufficient proof), I'm telling you is not like a coward and is not so senseless talking now about parley. He did not say "surrender". He said "negotiating". You horde boys should learn the full meaning of the word.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh please. Victory or death is the credo of the orcs only, at best. Look what kind of warchief you have.
Anyway, from the datamining "Our fleet is in ruin" by talanji and "The alliance is tighting his grip, victory is in their grasp" by Nathanos. If even that kind of bootlicking ranger admits that, means something I guess. While the alliance stricked at Zuldazar, Tyrande DID attack darkshore and, seeing the presence of a warfront, has at least gained a permanent foothold. Sure the horde has most of northern kalimdor (even if various quests show kaldorei resistence grounps here and there), like, still from quests, we learn the alliance is assaulting hillsbrad and silverpine and we rebuilt Stromgarde. Again, without the soon to come senseless plot twist we'll get from Sylvanas 'cause fanboys, the situation is most likely to get worse for the horde. And again, now could be the time to parley to not waste the gain from the ashenvale/darkshore invasion. It's for sure a thing some alliance leaders will not want the peace, but Baine is not omniscent and the try is worth in any case.

Sylvanas and the Forsaken may not have it as their credo, but they're bound to act by it in this war, because they're the one race that's bound to get the brunt of it in the event the Horde lose. The orcs themselves don't surrender and every race was complicit in the crap the Horde has pulled since the war started. Any peace negotiated after a crushing defeat will also be crushing and Baine knows full well that the Alliance promised to dismantle the Horde if it ever came to another Garrosh situation. He just doesn't care because he personally will be spared since he's Anduin's bumbuddy.

What you bring up is true in the sense that the Horde is on the backfoot but again, the Zandalari were not a relevant factor in the war before hand, the Zandalari fleet, however small a part of it, being available to the Horde gives them options they didn't have so much as a patch ago and on the mainland, fuck all has changed since 8.0, except Darkshore going from Horde-held to contested, already an improvement of its pre-war situation. There's no push towards its capitals or main holdings and the Horde is nowhere near total loss that would merit throwing yourself into negotiations where the starting point is your faction ceasing to be. On top of that, the horde isn't passive in the patch. They raise the various night elves in Darkshore and Rexxar is leading an offensive at the gates of Boralus itself, fighting Katherine.

[Fenixhart]

I see your "Baine is a Coward for Proposing peace" and raise you a "Baine is a Coward for not Chokeslaming that fucking prick of an undead right there on the spot."

[Priestiality]

Baine

WCII

Baine didnt even exist during WC2. Tauren played no part in the story. They were eventually retconned to explain the Highmountain, but even then it wasn't the Tauren from Mulgore. Baine doesn't show up until WC3, long after Garrosh's horde is dead. You claiming to know what Baine was up to is flat BS. Even in Chronicle the only mentions of the Tauren pre-WC3 are that some dragon convinced them to help with the War of the Ancients, and that they were at war with the Centaur for centuries.

[Deleted]

maybe Baine is secretly being pushed in a gay role by blizzard, that would explain his attitude? not my opinion, just wondering.

I was a great fan of the Cairne character, i was sad when blizzard wrote him out like they did

[Wildberry]

Baine didnt even exist during WC2. Tauren played no part in the story. They were eventually retconned to explain the Highmountain, but even then it wasn't the Tauren from Mulgore. Baine doesn't show up until WC3, long after Garrosh's horde is dead. You claiming to know what Baine was up to is flat BS. Even in Chronicle the only mentions of the Tauren pre-WC3 are that some dragon convinced them to help with the War of the Ancients, and that they were at war with the Centaur for centuries.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

When did I claim Tauren played any role in WCII? Go reread that post.

[Zulkhan]

Because he wants to make the Zandalari not join the Horde

A strategically brilliant plan that forcefully pushed the Zandalari into the Horde.

Bravo Anduin, I'm sure the people of Stormwind and your fellow leaders will praise your wits and acumen for the ages to come.

They still have their own and half the zandalari one. Sylvanas is wrong to push for victory, but calling for negotiations right now would be similar to an unconditional surrender. The horde is not quite beaten yet and especially the Zanadalari will crave for blood, going to the negotiating table will drive them away from the horde for good. The horde needs to even out the whole thing before negotiations make strategic sense not just sentimental ones and at that point Sylvanas needs to be gone as warchief.

Precisely. Negotiating on a position of weakness it's just another way to spell surrender, no matter how you twist it. The negotations at the end of SoO worked precisely because Vol'jin's rebellion stood its ground against the Alliance forces. Not to mention how idiotic, if not outright disrespectful, it would be to sit on the negotiation table with the Alliance while the Zandalari lost their king and got their kingdom ravaged as indirect consequence of their alignement with the Horde, it would mean spitting on their faces. Baine can fuck himself and tend to his "Anduin but even worse" tirade somewhere else.

the horde is constantly losing and not death the only one who had the balls to go though with it was garrosh.

Not really. Even that unhinged nutjob of Garrosh retreated plenty of times if retreat looked like a logical course of action.

People should really stop to treat "Victory or Death" as an excuse to pretend Orcs have to fight like retards. That motto was born within a precise context most people just outright ignore.

I never claimed Baine suffered from toxic masculinity, nobody would ever make that charge. I'm pointing out that Christie Golden, the woman responsible for writing him, refers to him as an example of "non-toxic masculinity."

It's depressingly funny to think how Baine was still a relatively blank slate back in Vanilla. Then Christie Golden came and, alongside Anduin, turned him into one of the symbols of her personal campaign. So fucking disagraceful.

- - - Updated - - -

I see your "Baine is a Coward for Proposing peace" and raise you a "Baine is a Coward for not Chokeslaming that fucking prick of an undead right there on the spot."

Well, both work. Especially since Baine has been, as expected, the character who whined the most over Sylvanas' shenanigans (besides Saurfang who left the Horde in the first place).

[Wildberry]

This is not illogic, I'm not saying that, but look this way: this is an intercontinental war. Ally just crushed what seemed to be horde mightiest fleet, recently acquired.

They crushed part of it. The Horde didn't have that fleet when they started an intercontinental war, and they still have a hard counter in the Scepter, to any Alliance fleet.

If this was a realistic conflict, the horde should easily find itself unable to strike in the EK anymore: Kul tiran fleet seems to much to overcome, and the allies still has some of the stormwind fleets.

Fortunately, conflict in Warcraft isn't realistic. Hence the point about us sinking your fleet twice to no avail, the logistical mess that is the Alliance's attack on Undercity, etc.

Negotiating NOW could be the only way to end the war with a sort of status quo, Horde in Kalimdor, Ally in the EK.

That literally wouldn't happen. Like I said, Greymane's still salty about the last war, and we torched a nation's worth of civilians. If you think anything positive for the Horde would come out of negotiating at the moment, much less the status quo, you're delusional.

You're right when you talk about Genn and Tyrande never accepting peace, but, even with the nowdays superiority, retaking the fucking ashenvale could be the only thing the alliance cannot take back.

So you admit that Genn and Tyrande won't accept peace, but suggest they can't retake Ashenvale? If they're incapable of reclaiming a region where they have guerilla forces, why should we negotiate at all? The blow wasn't big enough to put even Ashenvale at risk and we'll inevitably lose out in talks.

On second point, yeah, we lost 2 fleets to Garrosh and was like nothing, but, by this logic, after the siege of zuldazar the horde is really fucked, no matter Sylvanas' tricks. And anyway, I guess they were talking about a fucking spaceship with orbital light-blasters. Something hard to forget for the alliance command to use in a world war.

Yes, by this logic the Horde is really fucked right now. Fortunately, "that logic" hasn't ever really been relevant, otherwise we'd have steamrolled you guys in the last war.

The reason I brought it up is to counter this absolute nonsense whining about "where's muh space ships" and "we sunk your fleet you auto-lose, give up now!"

[Octavius]

Sylvanas and the Forsaken may not have it as their credo, but they're bound to act by it in this war, because they're the one race that's bound to get the brunt of it in the event the Horde lose. The orcs themselves don't surrender and every race was complicit in the crap the Horde has pulled since the war started. Any peace negotiated after a crushing defeat will also be crushing and Baine knows full well that the Alliance promised to dismantle the Horde if it ever came to another Garrosh situation. He just doesn't care because he personally will be spared since he's Anduin's bumbuddy.

What you bring up is true in the sense that the Horde is on the backfoot but again, the Zandalari were not a relevant factor in the war before hand, the Zandalari fleet, however small a part of it, being available to the Horde gives them options they didn't have so much as a patch ago and on the mainland, fuck all has changed since 8.0, except Darkshore going from Horde-held to contested, already an improvement of its pre-war situation. There's no push towards its capitals or main holdings and the Horde is nowhere near total loss that would merit throwing yourself into negotiations where the starting point is your faction ceasing to be. On top of that, the horde isn't passive in the patch. They raise the various night elves in Darkshore and Rexxar is leading an offensive at the gates of Boralus itself, fighting Katherine.

Yeah most of the horde is somewhat bound to the orcs "victory or death", but just look at the Undercity, in part to Teldrassil itself. Your warchief is NOT bound to this credo, and she influenced much the final result. If she was, Saurfang would've been completely right with her, he agreed to attack teldrassil, he despises the burning.
You're even right, but is not what I'm saying: I said (not in your answer, but a few posts before) the horde is not defeated, but with a very relevant disparity in the fleets, is inevitably bound to Kalimdor. They can, from now on, hardly mount offensive in the EK. What does it mean? It means that, in a realistic scenario, Silvermoon could very well be attacked and even taken. Exodar could in turn renforced having the control of the seas. And yes, zandalari were not relevant before 8.0, but you seem to forget Kul tiras, which was not relevant too but now it is, and has a massive (and mostly untouched) fleet, in service to the alliance.
But yes, the horde is far from defeated: The ally know that attacking Kalimdor would be incredibly costly and victory is not assured at all because there, the strenght of the horde is still very well healthy. This is exactly the reason why is reasonable to negotiate now: you're losing worldwide, but you have a very strong defensive position on an entire continent. Losing but far far far from defeat.

[Wildberry]

It's depressingly funny to think how Baine was still a relatively blank slate back in Vanilla. Then Christie Golden came and, alongside Anduin, turned him into one of the symbols of her personal campaign. So fucking disagraceful.

We need a pillar of non-toxic masculinity to look up to. Really, we should be thankful. In her eternal grace, Christie Golden offered the Horde a vessel through which they can accept the spiritual liege of the Warcraft Universe, Anduin Wrynn. Without Baine and Golden, we'd be cut off!

[Duckz0rs]

I think it's fair to say that since WoD their writing has really taken a nose dive. Perhaps we can agree on that?

Yeah, pretty much.

[Deleted]

The war reparation always were a non-factor, and only a propaganda piece by the NSDAP and the Communist. The only part of the treaty that damaged Germany's economy was the occupation of the Ruhr ... because of the german's reaction and massive state funded strike through hyperinflation. Weimar shot itself in the foot, like it did while drafting its constitution.

In fact, the ToV was actually quite reasonable considering the damage done and previous iteration. Napoleonian France had war reparation that were insanely higher ... Yet were paid in full. Note that in 1920, both the UK and France debt are twice as large as Germany.

In short, the "damn contributor" was simply used, both by the allied and the newly found republic, as a propaganda piece. It was far from the crippling blow to its economy. Your own comment are another proof of how effective that propaganda was, alongside the Dolchstoßlegende.

This also explain the stance of the ally post world war two with the neutering of the prussian ideology, the gift of most of ex-prussia to Poland and the very clear stance of the allied force to refuse any non-conditionnal surrender from Germany.


> I've seen the history of Weimar's.

And you clearly did not understand it, or you wouldn't have that argument.

[Zulkhan]

We need a pillar of non-toxic masculinity to look up to. Really, we should be thankful. In her eternal grace, Christie Golden offered the Horde a vessel through which they can accept the spiritual liege of the Warcraft Universe, Anduin Wrynn. Without Baine and Golden, we'd be cut off!

This would be funny if it was just a joke. But sometimes it looks like this is seriously going to be the upcoming outcome. What a spine-chilling thought.

[Octavius]

They crushed part of it. The Horde didn't have that fleet when they started an intercontinental war, and they still have a hard counter in the Scepter, to any Alliance fleet.

I read somewhere the scepter was retaken too. But could be wrong, I wanna know more. But in any case, we do not know the true power of this scepter, I doubt is Neptulon-level "I can fuck whatever is on seas".

Fortunately, conflict in Warcraft isn't realistic. Hence the point about us sinking your fleet twice to no avail, the logistical mess that is the Alliance's attack on Undercity, etc.

What can I say? We have the vindicaar but does not exist. We have crushed the zandalari fleet but somehow the war will continue. Garrosh crushed 2 fleets at his time, and did not matter. Shitty writing, no one denies that.

That literally wouldn't happen. Like I said, Greymane's still salty about the last war, and we torched a nation's worth of civilians. If you think anything positive for the Horde would come out of negotiating at the moment, much less the status quo, you're delusional.

I'm basing on the fact that kalimdor is un attackable for the alliance. Some costlines maybe, but not more. The Alliance must know that. Leave tyrande be, she's stupid as fuck, but the others will understand that. Even Genn perhaps, if he gets back is kingdom rebuilt and perhaps some more Lordaeron. I'm no delusional, I'm trying to be rational and no fantasy-driven.

So you admit that Genn and Tyrande won't accept peace, but suggest they can't retake Ashenvale? If they're incapable of reclaiming a region where they have guerilla forces, why should we negotiate at all? The blow wasn't big enough to put even Ashenvale at risk and we'll inevitably lose out in talks.

That's exactly my point. The horde by now is losing at seas, so is losing in any other places which is not Kalimdor. In Kalimdor, is dominant and will very likely always be. This way, you can negotiate and not get humiliating terms. And this way, Baine is no coward neither stupid.

Yes, by this logic the Horde is really fucked right now. Fortunately, "that logic" hasn't ever really been relevant, otherwise we'd have steamrolled you guys in the last war.

See back at the 2nd point. True enough.

The reason I brought it up is to counter this absolute nonsense whining about "where's muh space ships" and "we sunk your fleet you auto-lose, give up now!"

Which was not an absolute, as I just said.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah most of the horde is somewhat bound to the orcs "victory or death", but just look at the Undercity, in part to Teldrassil itself. Your warchief is NOT bound to this credo, and she influenced much the final result. If she was, Saurfang would've been completely right with her, he agreed to attack teldrassil, he despises the burning.
You're even right, but is not what I'm saying: I said (not in your answer, but a few posts before) the horde is not defeated, but with a very relevant disparity in the fleets, is inevitably bound to Kalimdor. They can, from now on, hardly mount offensive in the EK. What does it mean? In means that, in a realistic scenario, Silvermoon could very well be attacked and even taken. Exodar could in turn renforced having the control of the seas. And yes, zandalari were not relevant before 8.0, but you seem to forget Kul tiras, which was not relevant too but no it is, and has a massive (and mostly untouched) fleet, in service to the alliance.
But yes, the horde is far from defeated: The ally know that attacking Kalimdor would be incredibly costly and victory is not assured at all because there, the strenght of the horde is still very well healthy. This is exactly the reason why is reasonable to negotiate now: you're losing worldwide, but you have a very strong defensive position on an entire continent. Losing but far far far from defeat.

War of Thorns, save for the Burning, was entirely an orcish-themed plan, Lordaeron Forsaken, but no surrender doesn't mean no retreat or a lack of tactics. Saurfang bridling about the concept of a trap doesn't mean the Horde isn't willing to apply it.

As Zulkhan and Wildberry have mentioned in turn, the Horde have one asset they didn't have before, and that's the remnants of the Zandalari fleet, and presumably that plot device you get at the end of teh war campaign if the Alliance don't end up stealing that. A peace struck now would not last, because nothing would have been resolved, and an armistice while letting the Horde recover slightly would also allow the Alliance to further build up its existing advantage. Thus fighting on is their best bet, because using their newly acquired assets they could still inflict heavy damage on the Alliance and bring up more favourable negotiating terms. They might not be able to win, but they'd sure be able to bring themselves to a position where they're not staring down the barrel of what's basically unconditional surrender and their end as a faction.

To briefly touch upon the space ship, it's really not as good as some Alliance posters think it is. An equivalent vessel, the Xenedar, got taken out by one shot by a big demon and the Vindicaar gun's main feat is blasting a bunch of rocks. It's an extremely powerful logistical tool, but if it were actually deployed, the Horde would be able to knock it down no worries. That and it runs on argunite, which no longer exists. Mind, we both know that's not the real reason it hasn't appeared, it's that Blizzard don't want to have to worry about it for their story, but it's easy enough to find excuses for it.

[Octavius]

War of Thorns, save for the Burning, was entirely an orcish-themed plan, Lordaeron Forsaken, but no surrender doesn't mean no retreat or a lack of tactics. Saurfang bridling about the concept of a trap doesn't mean the Horde isn't willing to apply it.

As Zulkhan and Wildberry have mentioned in turn, the Horde have one asset they didn't have before, and that's the remnants of the Zandalari fleet, and presumably that plot device you get at the end of teh war campaign if the Alliance don't end up stealing that. A peace struck now would not last, because nothing would have been resolved, and an armistice while letting the Horde recover slightly would also allow the Alliance to further build up its existing advantage. Thus fighting on is their best bet, because using their newly acquired assets they could still inflict heavy damage on the Alliance and bring up more favourable negotiating terms. They might not be able to win, but they'd sure be able to bring themselves to a position where they're not staring down the barrel of what's basically unconditional surrender and their end as a faction.

To briefly touch upon the space ship, it's really not as good as some Alliance posters think it is. An equivalent vessel, the Xenedar, got taken out by one shot by a big demon and the Vindicaar gun's main feat is blasting a bunch of rocks. It's an extremely powerful logistical tool, but if it were actually deployed, the Horde would be able to knock it down no worries. That and it runs on argunite, which no longer exists. Mind, we both know that's not the real reason it hasn't appeared, it's that Blizzard don't want to have to worry about it for their story, but it's easy enough to find excuses for it.

Yeah I agree to some extent, but the difference in my pov is that would not be an unconditional surrender, negotiating now. Because of the total dominance of Kalimdor. And allies too has a new (and in this case, untouched) asset, the kul tiran fleet, which is the very reason for their advantage and which, IMO,makes the remnants of the zandalari fleet uneffective.
But ehi, this is my opinion, and both are not considering the grey matters in the writers' team: so what we consider logical may not be for them.
About the Vindicaar you're right too, but again, I'm not saying is invincible, I'm just saying is a powerful asset lost forgotten. And yes, we both know what is the true reason.

[George Costanza]

Baine is the worst character in all the horde.

[Wildberry]

I read somewhere the scepter was retaken too. But could be wrong, I wanna know more. But in any case, we do not know the true power of this scepter, I doubt is Neptulon-level "I can fuck whatever is on seas".

They attempt to retake the Scepter in Siege of Zuldazar. Whether or not they're successful is anyone's guess. For what it's worth, it seems to be part of the "Gnome Section" of the raid, and we know that ends at least somewhat poorly for Mekkatorque. That, in conjunction with the fact that it's not mentioned in the recap among their victories suggests that they might not have been successful.

I'm basing on the fact that kalimdor is un attackable for the alliance. Some costlines maybe, but not more. The Alliance must know that. Leave tyrande be, she's stupid as fuck, but the others will understand that. Even Genn perhaps, if he gets back is kingdom rebuilt and perhaps some more Lordaeron. I'm no delusional, I'm try to be rational and no fantasy-driven.

If Kalimdor is unattackable, why negotiate?

That's exactly my point. The horde by now is losing at seas, so is losing in any other places which is not Kalimdor. In Kalimdor, is dominant and will very likely
always be. This way, you can negotiate and not get humiliating terms.

Just because they sunk part of a navy we weren't counting on when we started the war doesn't mean we auto-lose all sea battles from here on out, or are unable to make any meaningful deployments on the Eastern Kingdoms.

For what it's worth, the Kul Tiran fleet is just a little overhyped. The Orcs managed to do serious damage to it in the Second War, and they had a fear of sailing prior to the war.

[Combatbutler]

For what it's worth, the Kul Tiran fleet is just a little overhyped. The Orcs managed to do serious damage to it in the Second War, and they had a fear of sailing prior to the war.

To be fair that was due to the dragons riders intervening, chronicle made it very clear that the Kul'tirans were utterly wrecking the orcs on the sea.