[Spoiler] The Alliance does X in Zuldazar and Baine's immidiate reaction is:

[Zulkhan]

Because he's a goddamn TAUREN and avoiding bloodshed is their thing?

"Why are Goblins always talking about money, what's their deal? Sheesh!"

Let's avoid insulting an entire race by degrading it to the level of its insufferably dull leader.

[Magnagarde]

That's a horse to beat on a different thread

I've read the rest of your post too, but this part is something I also agree with. It isn't my intention to derail, but to point out how Baine doesn't get an easy pass where others do.

He, and indeed the Horde as a whole are in fact complicit with Sylvanas, but even assuming her worst possible scenario motive of eventually killing everyone, them included, to raise as zombies, she's still accomplished more for her race than Baine has the tauren, what with going from a bunch of haggard ghouls isolated on all sides to the de facto leadership of one of Azeroth's two superpowers, who at their peak spanned most of Lordaeron.

That is largely dependant on what a race considers to be an accomplishment. Surely conquest and raising more undead, while securing holdings that they deny to the living and the living want to deny them too, is a huge accomplishment for the undead, but a race like the tauren find accomplishment in peace.

[gcsmith]

The Alliance kills the King of the Zandalari, allies in the negotiation table of sorts, and his immidiate thought process as someone who is suppose to be part of the Horde and to support his allies is...



What the actual hell is going with this guy? Why does Blizzard KEEP writing him this way?

Alliance just handed them a huge loss. Sure there were alliance losses, but they reclaim the sceptre (a huge part of the horde war effort) and destroy most of the horde fleet. Most of kul Tiran fleet in tact.

This is the point you try and stop yourself being exterminated... and it fits his character to seek peace before sending his people into a war to serve the banshee queens interests. Especially if he's against the wmd she's bound to cook up to have a chance of winning a war when outnumbered so heavily.

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The horde attacked themselves in Stormheim? Yeah... don't think so.

Cough, ashran says hello.

[Zulkhan]

Hell, I miss those Vanilla days when Baine was still someone having literally no problems in butchering anyone threatening his lands.

Then Christie Golden and The Shattering came and from that moment everything has dramatically gone to shit.

[Wildberry]

The only problem here is that you didn't blow anyone over on any front whatsoever.

Considering you've abandoned pretty much every point you've made in favor of something else that temporarily looks better, I'd say yeah, that actually has happened.

There is an exorbitant amount of Sylvanas fans which will take any chance to ride the hate-wave on any character which opposes hers, Baine included. While there certainly is a lot to dislike about Baine, there certainly isn't as much as some would have us believe here.

No, that's simply not the case. Again, we're back to point #1. "Edgy Sylvanas fans mad that he opposes her" aren't responsible for Baine getting hate. Look at the posters here that routinely get labeled as "Sylvanas fanboys:" Mehrunes, Friendlyimmolation, Arrashi (for some reason), Verdugo, recently Super Dickmann and so on. Pretty much all of the people MMO-Champion has tarred as "Sylvanas fanboys" were throwing hate at Baine far before he came into opposition with Sylvanas. Your point just doesn't hold up.

Oh? So you aren't the one who keeps throwing in petty character insults about Baine's horn?

You're surprised that petty insults get answered with petty insults?

Nothing is being rebranded. It is you who is having the illusion of having won over the initial arguement, thinking there's any need to rebrand anything.

Why did you shift gears so hard on:
1.) Baine getting hate from Sylvanas fans for being a plot device against her -> Baine gets hate because he's a plot device
2.) People only dislike Baine because they like Sylvanas ->*Gets proven wrong* -> Oh yeah? Well SoO happened, who's the idiot now, huh??

You've gotten blown out on every argument, and you try some nonsensical reframe that you're simply not savvy enough to pull off. It's kind of embarrassing.

[Magnagarde]

Considering you've abandoned pretty much every point you've made in favor of something else that temporarily looks better, I'd say yeah, that actually has happened.

I literally wrote in multiple posts afterwards that Sylvanas fanboys, which there is an exorbitant amount of, enjoy riding a hate-wave on Baine over reasons that Sylvanas can just as easily be hated on.

You either have reading problems or are too focused on repeating that you've blown someone away and can't think of anything else.

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Why did you shift gears so hard on:
1.) Baine getting hate from Sylvanas fans for being a plot device against her -> Baine gets hate because he's a plot device
2.) People only dislike Baine because they like Sylvanas ->*Gets proven wrong* -> Oh yeah? Well SoO happened, who's the idiot now, huh??

1. No gear shifted, but all these gears are pieces of a larger mechanism within which their unobjective hate for a character like Baine is being camouflaged and passed on through complaining such as him being a traitor and similar drivel. There's like four or five posters notorious in this subsection for throwing about memes about Baine no matter the season, trying to do just this.

2. Indeed, there's many people who dislike Baine because they like Sylvanas. I think they're the majority in this moment. And once again you're coming up with an embarassing "gets proven wrong" when you've proven nothing?

[Zulkhan]

There is an exorbitant amount of Sylvanas fans which will take any chance to ride the hate-wave on any character which opposes hers, Baine included.

Baine has never seriously opposed anything. His character constantly remains in the sidelines while more resolute personalities take an actual stand. "Oh look, Baine isn't happy about X" wasn't particularly engaging the first time, after you witness the same shit over and over again it stops to be uninteresting and starts to turn outright insufferable.

[Wildberry]

I literally wrote in multiple posts afterwards that Sylvanas fanboys, which there is an exorbitant amount of, enjoy riding a hate-wave on Baine over reasons that Sylvanas can just as easily be hated on.

Wow, so you shifted gears mid-argument exactly like you've been accused of? Real great for you to finally admit that.

And no, the resident "Sylvanas fanboys" here have hated Baine far before this, and their reasoning as laid out by Dickmann goes beyond reasons that also apply to Sylvanas, too.

1. No gear shifted, but all these gears are pieces of a larger mechanism within which their unobjective hate for a character like Baine is being camouflaged and passed on through complaining such as him being a traitor and similar drivel.

That's a clear backpedal, and it's pretty obvious. And drop this nonsense about criticisms being "drivel," you literally claimed that Baine wouldn't be so bad if he were written differently. That's the biggest vindication for people who loathe Baine.

2. Indeed, there's many people who dislike Baine because they like Sylvanas. I think they're the majority in this moment. Amd once again you're coming up with an embarassing "gets proven wrong" when you've proven nothing?

Okay, and I'd like one shred of evidence for that statement.

Conversely, I've pointed out that every single poster that has been tarred as a "Sylvanas fanboy" on this subforum, was lobbing hate at Baine before Sylvanas was even a viable candidate for the position of Warchief.

More importantly, what you believe (based on zero evidence) is entirely irrelevant. You had someone who likes Sylvanas explain that they hated Baine earlier and your response was "Oh yeah? Well what about SoO?"

Notice how you're incapable of staying on topic, in a discussion about you staying on topic. You just can't help yourself.

[Magnagarde]

Wow, so you shifted gears mid-argument exactly like you've been accused of? Real great for you to finally admit that.
.

The gear which is addressing Sylvanas' fanboys was never taken out of the picture. It was always an integral part of what I was saying and is only one layer among many. This isn't to say there weren't objective remarks made in regards to Baine.

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you literally claimed that Baine wouldn't be so bad if he were written differently. That's the biggest vindication for people who loathe Baine.

Which is just one of the aforementioned layers. There is no room to develop a character like Baine and give his race, the tauren, development space when two entire expansions are leading up to a massive all-out war initiated by an undead high elf, returning us back to point one which just adds on top of it.

Does this mean Baine isn't written that well as he is? Definitely. However, the points raised against him are not unique to him, yet he is the one to be the target. Now all there is left for you is to add two atop two and see why he gets bashed for something Sylvanas does too, but doesn't get bashed for in return.

[bledgor]

Honestly him and Saurfang can take their egos and go die.

Varok "my honor is more important than the lives of everyone" Saurfang who just needs to die, and I wish they should just make Baine defect to alliance so he can be cuddle buddies with Anduin already, boy is a useless coward who speaks a ton, but does nothing at all.

[ls-]

@Caerule
>Join a faction that routinely shouts victory or death
>Perplexed when people don't like a character that routinely accepts losing and makes excuses on behalf of attackers

FTFY

"We're training warriors, hunters, and gatherers in Taurajo, we have no right to retaliate!", because counter-attacking the Alliance is a big no-no, and then proceeds to exile his own people who wanted to avenge the camp :P

Blizz seriously butchered his character in Cata alpha/beta >_> Cows are one of my fav races in WoW, but, damn, Baine is among my least fav in the game.

[Magnagarde]

Notice how you're incapable of staying on topic, in a discussion about you staying on topic.

You failing to understand why my first post, which is consisting of only a few sentences, isn't going to give you an in-depth preview of why I think as I do is not my fault. The moment I started expanding my reasoning on it because your posts - among others - inclined me to do so, is the moment you continously use throughout as a tool to convince yourself that I'm trying to say something different, when in reality it is all part of the same arguement.

You not understanding that I am expanding my initial post into a broader view and adding more reasoning behind what I wrote because you are literally making me do so, only to complain that I'm doing so in return, is unintelligent to the point that I'm not sure whether you're troll baiting. To add irony on top of it all, you then talk about intellectual capacity.

[MatadorMedia]

Does anyone care that Rakastan is dead? His failed leadership is what splintered the troll factions seen in 8.0 and resulted in Uldir. Talanji was destined to take over for him as the leader; we knew this from the promotion art when BFA was first announced. Baine is just saying maybe instead of re-instigating the Alliance by committing a war crime (such as burning a world tree or plaguing an entire city), the Horde should try a diplomatic approach. Escalation is a bad move, as demonstrated by Sylvanas.

[Thage]

Probably because he knows the Horde started this. He'd like to cut his losses before his people get dragged deeper into war.

This. Baine's first priority has always been to carry on Cairne's ideals for the Horde, and to provide the best life for his people he can. That's why he was one of the first to join Vol'jin's rebellion, why he's always treated fairly with Jaina and Anduin, and why he wants this war the hell over with. He's one of the last holdouts of the pre-Garrosh Horde, the one that remembers how to think in terms other than "mass murder solves all my problems and tough talk solves the rest."

[seleri]

Because Baine isn't an idiot and doesn't want to get his people, and the rest of the Horde, killed in a pointless war that was started by a woman that couldn't care less about them.

[StationaryHawk]

That's his character. Sylvanas even has the same reaction as you. It's clearly intentional.

Baine has always been against the war. He was communicating with Anduin well before the War of the Thorns. Fighting the Alliance to further Sylvanas's agenda is not what he wants, and you can bet he's going to suggest alternatives.

[ls-]

Does anyone care that Rakastan is dead? His failed leadership is what splintered the troll factions seen in 8.0 and resulted in Uldir. Talanji was destined to take over for him as the leader; we knew this from the promotion art when BFA was first announced. Baine is just saying maybe instead of re-instigating the Alliance by committing a war crime (such as burning a world tree or plaguing an entire city), the Horde should try a diplomatic approach. Escalation is a bad move, as demonstrated by Sylvanas.

Well, it's clear that you play the Alliance. Negotiations are not an options for the Horde, orcs in particular will suffer the most because of it.

The Alliance has an upper hand, it's politically and militarily more powerful than the Horde, it has vastly more resources, the only thing the Horde would get out of peace-talks right now is having few of their leaders executed, and the rest sent to their reservations. And then guess what... Orcs will eventually re-instigate their conflict w/ Nelves, because unlike their long-eared neighbours, orcs have practically no resources in Durotar and nearby Horde zones, thanks Thrall :P, the only places where they can get wood, food, etc are Azshara, Ashenvale, etc, Nelven territories. They've been fighting because of it for a couple of decades now.

Realistically, the Horde has only two options: to accept that they're royally fucked and basically give up on their lives, the latter applies mainly to orcs, or to try to bring the Alliance down to or below their level, so they could get a better deal. And then Sylvanas has one extra goal in mind, which doesn't really go against the second option.

[Torrasque]

Baine and Saurfang are the epitome of weakness and betrayal in the Horde. We should just get to the part where they are executed publically for the backstabbing honorless rats they are.

[gaymer77]

Baine needs to go the way of Saurfang and just die already. Neither one of them are good for the Horde and are stupid characters now.

[ls-]

Baine and Saurfang are the epitome of weakness and betrayal in the Horde. We should just get to the part where they are executed publically for the backstabbing honorless rats they are.

TBF, despite disliking current Saurfang, I wouldn't call him honourless, honour in general isn't a problem, moreover, the Horde and the Alliance have a bit different ideas about it, don't forget that what's good for the Horde is in general bad for the Alliance, and vice versa.

However, "muh honour" is a serious problem, he's overly obsessed w/ it, to the point where it starts interfering w/ his ability to think straight, now add his suicidal tendencies to the mix, and you'll get a recipe for disaster.