Interrupts should have DRs

[Deleted]

All casters should have disarms. Why can all melee interrupt and lock you out of casting, but you can't do the same to them unless you're boomkin?

[Craaazyyy]

Wotlk was not particularly balanced. Leaving out legendary weapons and the broken hero class, the game was dominated by casters and it was much much easier to play a caster than a melee back then.

Casters (rightly) complain whenever they have it tough like they do in BFA. But they don't like to admit when the pendulum swings the other way and they end up faceroll overpowered like at the end of WotLK.

well im not talking about balance

and im not complaining about being underpowered, im talking about class design

also it wasnt easier to play caster than a melee(besides rogue and maybe warrior)

playing a mage/lock was significantly harder than any melee besides rogue probably(rogue was on par complexity wise imo)

i played pretty much every class in wrath either on live or on private servers

[Ange]

All casters should have disarms. Why can all melee interrupt and lock you out of casting, but you can't do the same to them unless you're boomkin?

Root->walking away is a disarm, remember most melee specs have no significant range skills. It's pretty clear you have not seen both sides of the argument. Just because blizzard allows some high-mobile (READ: HIGH UPTIME) specs to break pvp balance (DEMON-HUNTERS / WARRIORS) it does not mean the system is broken, it just means blizzard is really really bad at balancing specs/classes.

[netherflame]

Playing caster feels like shit atm, not talking from balance stand point cause there are tier 1 casters but from fun perspective

Playing a hunter or melee just feels so much more fun than playing a caster because I can actually use my abilities and not fake cast half the time or sit in kicks half the time

Being a caster has been pretty boring for atleast 2 expansions now, its constant fakecasting and knowing that you have to rely completely on instants because of the multitudes of stuns and interrupts that melees have. As a warlock right now it feels like I have to run with a pally healer so that I can get BOP and have casting circle just to get some spells off otherwise i'm just a punching bag until someone dies.

[kail]

Some casters are already quite strong and you want them even stronger? Kicks are a type of CC that only affects casters unlike stuns, fears, polys, etc and are avoidable. If you are not tracking enemy interrupts, that's on you.

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I like Starwars: The Old Republics way of handling crowd control; you have a bar that fills up every time you get CC'ed, the more severe CC filling it up quicker. When you're half way, all CC lasts half the time, and when the bar is full, you bnecome immune to CC. They also have a trinket as well as this mechanic. This promotes clever CC and not mindless sheeping and stunning.

I'll be honest, I did like that mechanic as well.

[Druitz]

All casters should have disarms. Why can all melee interrupt and lock you out of casting, but you can't do the same to them unless you're boomkin?

You are clearly clueless 1400 player. This will make pvp exteremly unbalanced.

[Deleted]

Root->walking away is a disarm, remember most melee specs have no significant range skills. It's pretty clear you have not seen both sides of the argument. Just because blizzard allows some high-mobile (READ: HIGH UPTIME) specs to break pvp balance (DEMON-HUNTERS / WARRIORS) it does not mean the system is broken, it just means blizzard is really really bad at balancing specs/classes.

Sure, walking away from melee is a form of disarm. But using los on a caster counts is a form of silence in a similar vein. Imo in arenas, lossing casters is as punishing, if not more so, than outranging melee. Melee at least tend to have some tools to get in range, while casters have nothing (except shimmer on mages) to fix los issues mid-cast. Someone simply running around a pillar can effectively make you unable to use any spells with cast time while also really limiting instants.

Casters just fundamentally have more ways in which they can be stopped from doing their thing thanks to interrupts. That's the core of the balance issue here. Sure, if interrupts are changed and nothing else is done, frost mages may end up OP, but that can be much more easily tweaked than an entire category of specs being outclassed by another.

[thunderdragon2]

sorry but with the cd of interrupts and dr on cc if we added dr to interrupts also healers would be unavailable, if they did that they would need to SERIOUSLY nerf healers in pvp

[Deleted]

So many melees here defending this crap design don't seem to have touched a caster other than frost mage it seems. Complaining that 15s interrupt is long? Are you serious?

Also the "fake cast" mantra needs to dissapear. Fake casting might serve in arenas where there is often a healer baby sitting you but on 1vs1 its a pure waste of time? Why? Because anyone with a brain will wait 2/3 of a cast before using their kick (unless they bot) and also fake casting is no different from silencing yourself because you waste at least 2-3 seconds of doing nothing while the mongo melee train wrecks you for free. Even if you manage to fakecast and avoid his kick, he can still: stun, defensive cooldown such as cloak or spell reflect or magic barrier or even use a dash to out of sight very fast. Demon hunters can do it so easily. And rogues have gouge on top of stuns.

So please lets be honest here, casters are only relevant in arena with people baby sitting them, they are worth nothing on their own and thats a problem. Any class who is godlike in duels is also, no surprise, great in 3vs3 or 5vs5. The game is balanced like trash, thats a fact. PvP has been a joke for a long time and is nowhere near competitive levels of e-sport

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The early WoW years had noncapped-castpushback and interrupts for casters and you had to weight each cast for mana cost, because endless spamming of spells was not an option. Kiting and tactical spell cast decision had to be used to counter melees. The skill cap was high and bad players suffered a lot.

I am not sure how you can suggest the last and only SLOW-DOWN (not counter) to todays INSTANT-SPELL/SPAM/ENDLESS-MANA casters.
The only balance there is between melee and caster, that blizzard allow each pvp season a few melee specs to stay borderline OP just to keep the casters specs in check.

The whole combat system is now SPAM-HIGH-BURST-DPS and counter with IMMUNITYS/HUGE-RAID-COOLDOWNS and repeat till there are no cooldowns left to use. If you lack IMMUNITYS/HUGE-RAID-COOLDOWNS your spec/class is not even pvp viable right now. If you lack SPAM-HIGH-BURST-DPS your spec/class is not even pvp viable right now.

Interrupts are not the problem, CC's/Burst/Immunitys should not be given to certain classes/specs as a full package or it will just break any kind of pvp.

This is not MoP, instant cast for dps do no significant damage. Boomkin is dots which are weak pressure, afflilock actually deals no relevant damage outside of multi hardcasts of unstable affliction+haunt (corruption deals nothing, agony neither). Fire mage isn't good currently, arcane is mobile but instants aren't taking anyone down. Only frost mage can burst with ice lance, they are the outliers

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The early WoW years had noncapped-castpushback and interrupts for casters and you had to weight each cast for mana cost, because endless spamming of spells was not an option. Kiting and tactical spell cast decision had to be used to counter melees. The skill cap was high and bad players suffered a lot.

I am not sure how you can suggest the last and only SLOW-DOWN (not counter) to todays INSTANT-SPELL/SPAM/ENDLESS-MANA casters.
The only balance there is between melee and caster, that blizzard allow each pvp season a few melee specs to stay borderline OP just to keep the casters specs in check.

The whole combat system is now SPAM-HIGH-BURST-DPS and counter with IMMUNITYS/HUGE-RAID-COOLDOWNS and repeat till there are no cooldowns left to use. If you lack IMMUNITYS/HUGE-RAID-COOLDOWNS your spec/class is not even pvp viable right now. If you lack SPAM-HIGH-BURST-DPS your spec/class is not even pvp viable right now.

Interrupts are not the problem, CC's/Burst/Immunitys should not be given to certain classes/specs as a full package or it will just break any kind of pvp.

This is not MoP, instant cast for dps do no significant damage. Boomkin is dots which are weak pressure, afflilock actually deals no relevant damage outside of multi hardcasts of unstable affliction+haunt (corruption deals nothing, agony neither). Fire mage isn't good currently, arcane is mobile but instants aren't taking anyone down. Only frost mage can burst with ice lance, they are the outliers

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Also this.

THe entire point behind Melee hitting so hard (warriors seem to hit me for about 15-20% of my HP per global) was that they didn't have 100% uptime, so when they DID manage to connect, they needed to do competitive damage to compensate. Problem is, unless you're one spec of hunter or one of two mage specs, melee effectively has 100% uptime on other casters/ranged.

As a warlock, once a melee is on me, that's that. Theyre never leaving, and i have no viable escape tools. (Portal being a talent is bullshit, and gateway is countered by every mobility skill that melee has). They park on my face and destroy me. I cant channel drain life (not that it heals for NEARLY enough anymore) to apply Shadow Embrace without getting interrupted/stunned back to back (often with other interrupting actions like a disorient or knockback thrown in for good measure), cant use UResolve because itll just get stuffed with a stun... nothing. My options are sit there and take it.

And then i die. Even if i manage to stack up 5x Shadow Embrace + Curse of Weakness (for a total of -50% damage done), their damage STILL outpaces any drain/life regain i can manage, AND they have better health regain than *I* do! DoTs dont hit hard enough (900 damage Corruption ticks, lelz) to matter compared to melee hits for 20k+, bleeds that out-damage ALL of my DoTs combined, and 2+ stuns, 3+ gap closers, CC immunity (SkillStorm), and an interrupt.

Yes this exactly, but seems some people are still stuck in previous expansions and think casters are good just because frost mage is good (lulz). I've seen even rogues have the audacity of talking about skillful fakecasting when they can completely paralyse a caster even with fakecasts. Some people are full of shit and want their melee dominance to stay so they don't have to reroll to the next FOTM

[mostvp71]

Playing caster feels like shit atm, not talking from balance stand point cause there are tier 1 casters but from fun perspective

Playing a hunter or melee just feels so much more fun than playing a caster because I can actually use my abilities and not fake cast half the time or sit in kicks half the time

Learn to juke.

[ken oath]

Wotlk was not particularly balanced. Leaving out legendary weapons and the broken hero class, the game was dominated by casters and it was much much easier to play a caster than a melee back then.

Casters (rightly) complain whenever they have it tough like they do in BFA. But they don't like to admit when the pendulum swings the other way and they end up faceroll overpowered like at the end of WotLK.

Ignoring the fact that WotLK was 9 years ago, and the pendulum has been stuck towards melee for that time.

Yes this exactly, but seems some people are still stuck in previous expansions and think casters are good just because frost mage is good (lulz). I've seen even rogues have the audacity of talking about skillful fakecasting when they can completely paralyse a caster even with fakecasts. Some people are full of shit and want their melee dominance to stay so they don't have to reroll to the next FOTM

Frost mages aren't even that good. Most mages are playing Fire now because you don't need to cast as much.

Frost mages excel in 1v1's vs' melee, or in 2's versus a ret/warrior/assassin rogue. That's about it.

Bring a second melee into the equation, and if they have half a brain your advantage is gone. Bonus points if that melee is an enh shaman who can just purge your shit, or a Surv hunter who has a pet removing your barrier with auto attacks.

[Sae]

All casters should have disarms. Why can all melee interrupt and lock you out of casting, but you can't do the same to them unless you're boomkin?

I don't know why this needs to be explained, but here goes:

Interrupts require the target to be casting for them to be effective, and can be completely wasted if the target jukes the interrupt.

Disarms don't have any requirement. The comparison you're looking for is silence vs. disarm - silence, like disarm, has no requirement - in which case there are very few blanket silence effects in the game at all right now. If we gave every caster a disarm, then surely every melee should have an equal duration silence, right?

[Kagthul]

I don't know why this needs to be explained, but here goes:

Interrupts require the target to be casting for them to be effective, and can be completely wasted if the target jukes the interrupt.

Disarms don't have any requirement. The comparison you're looking for is silence vs. disarm - silence, like disarm, has no requirement - in which case there are very few blanket silence effects in the game at all right now. If we gave every caster a disarm, then surely every melee should have an equal duration silence, right?

Sure, the moment that 80% of melee dps has 1.5-3 second interruptable and LoSable windups.

Let me dumbify it for you -

Ways that Melee can prevent ranged (mostly casters) from DPSing:
LoS
Stun
Disorient
Interrupts
Silences
Other CC (Warrior fear, etc)

Ways that Ranged (primarily casters) can prevent Melee from DPSing:
Be at range (lol good luck!)
Stun (some specs)
Disorient (some specs)
Other CC (sheep, fear, only some specs)

Thats it.

And "be at range" is laughable, since most melees have twice as many gap closers as ranged has gap-openers. These days only 2 or 3 ranged specs (out of all the ranged classes) can reliably "kite" melee or get away once melee is on them. The rest have to just stand and take it. Auto-applied, 50-70% snares mean you waddle away if you root and try to run (if your class or spec even has a root, plenty dont), and often times dont even escape "melee" range (8 yards) before your roots break and theyre back on you like glue.

Some of the melee specs can fucking catch people ON MOUNTS.

Melee is assininely more mobile than ranged.

[Druitz]

Ignoring the fact that WotLK was 9 years ago, and the pendulum has been stuck towards melee for that time.




Frost mages aren't even that good. Most mages are playing Fire now because you don't need to cast as much.

Frost mages excel in 1v1's vs' melee, or in 2's versus a ret/warrior/assassin rogue. That's about it.

Bring a second melee into the equation, and if they have half a brain your advantage is gone. Bonus points if that melee is an enh shaman who can just purge your shit, or a Surv hunter who has a pet removing your barrier with auto attacks.

It's us only meta. Most mages on EU play frost. Also frost mages are good, it's tier 1 caster atm with acces to tier 1 comps that is capable to be real rank 1. If it doesnt make frost mage good spec idk what can.


Btw casters are not bad, they are just harder and frustrating to play. There is even warlock with 3k 3s rating. How is this possible?

Some ppl need to understand that if enh have better arena comps than ele ppl will play enh not ele so we will not see many casters.

The real problem is at shit rating i mean below 1800 we can say it's trash mmr where there are no casters. Why? Because casters are too hard for casuals/noob players. Once you get higher and higher you start to see casters and even casters cleaves.

If blizzard want to make casters more viabale they need to reduce their skill cap even more, make their gameplay even easier than it is now but is it rly what community wants? I prefer to play vs jungle/turbo than vs retarded ele/bala/rdruid like in legion. No i am not playing melee cleaves if someone is asking.

@UP

Mid arena casters tanking is a thing since long time. It's funny that it's actually better to tank melees in mid while pressing 1 2 3 pve rotation that kite. It's not wotlk anymore sadly.

[Ashgaan]

Sure, the moment that 80% of melee dps has 1.5-3 second interruptable and LoSable windups.

Let me dumbify it for you -

Ways that Melee can prevent ranged (mostly casters) from DPSing:
.....
Silences
.....

I must have missed the melee with silence, maybe one exists (rogues with garrote from stealth?? maybe)

You are comparing parts of a spec/class and generalizing it to the entire range/melee base. This is not a proper way do to a breakdown. Specs have different tools to deal with different situations, yours being the ability to use your abilities at the proper time.

Some specs are broken with over the top mobility and escape mechanism, some specs are balanced some specs are shit. Balance must be done at spec level.

Melee without a interrupt?? why so he can eat Greater Pyros while in root, slow, sheep etc?? With the mage able to teleport mid cast? See now where the problem lies ?? some specs/classes get way to much mobility and some don't, and for ranged some specs/classes get slows, teleports, roots while others get "survival tools" that don't work so well (for now).

[Deleted]

And there is warlock with no mobility, no tankiness, no damage outside of cheesing the drain life azerite trait. Seriously warlocks can't kite a single melee spec, not even the slowest DK in the world.

Its funny also how its always the mage who is used as a reference for CC. Mage isn't the only caster in this game.
They all tend to have huge issues currently (bare moonkins thanks to their shapeshifting, not damage)

[xindralol]

juking kicks is part of the gameplay. if you put DRs on interrupts so freecasting becomes commonplace you need to compensate by removing either damage or control from casters and I think that's a far worse gameplay adjustment.

isn’t this exactly how resto shaman works

[SirreASDF]

Trying to break down ranged ways of getting out of range from melee

Shadow Priests:
6s sprint on shield (lols)
5 sec stun
Fear, 30 sec cd (useless vs warriors)
Somewhat tanky design with Edge of Insanity, Dispersion and Void Swap though, even if EoI nullifies how the spec is supposed to work.. (Changes in 8.1)

Warlock:
Teleport Circle (dunno cd? Might be a talent still so you lose a defensive cd? dunno)
Gateway (45-60sec cd something?)
Castable fear without cd
Casting circle (if specced?)

Ele shammy:
no idea, guess they have a knockback still?
Frost Shock (ranged slow, I guess)

Balance (probably missing stuff here):
Bash 5 sec stun
Sprint (3 min cd?)
Cyclone, castable cc without cd(?)
Castable roots without cd
Pretty tanky overall

Hunters:
Disengage
Slow trap
Ranged slow
Master's Call
Aspect of the Cheetah, short duration sprint, dunno cd
Stun 5 sec (if bm)
Immune to fear during pop (if BM and talented(?) for it)

Decent damage reduction cds through roar of sacrifice and aspect of the turtle

Mages:
2x Shimmer (on 20 sec cd each)
Frost Nova 30 sec cd
Polymorph castable, no cd
Dragon's Breath if fire
Ring of Frost, castable aoe cc (dr's with morph though)
Pet nova (if frost)
Strong slows (if frost, no slows as fire)
Ice Nova, 1 second root (if frost)
Good defensives with temporal shield (unless you face a priest or enh..) Ice Block and Blazing/Ice Barrier
2 Ice blocks if frost, Cauterize if fire

Melees gap-closers/cc
Warrior:
Charge (20 sec cd?)
Stormbolt 45 sec cd?
Leap (45 sec cd?)
Hamstring if arms
Piercing howl if fury (piercing howl has slightly longer range than melee range, right? and is aoe)
Slow removal/immunity for 2 sec every 4 sec if fury

Retribution:
Blessing of Freedom vs everything but mages and shadowpriests (8 sec dur, 30 sec cd)
Divine Steed, sprint 3 sec dur, 45 sec cd
Divine Shield (5 min cd, 8 sec immunity to cc)
70%(?) slow 8 sec dur, 30 sec cd

DK:
Grip 20(?) sec cd
5 sec stun (dunno cd, guessing 45-60s)
Wraith Walk?
Icebound Fortitude vs stuns
Do they still have the knockback immunity on uh, the str cooldown?
Anti Magic Shell (immune to new applications of cc)

Rogue:
Sprint 3(?) min cd 8 sec duration(?)
Shadowstep 25 sec cd(?) Hook if Outlaw
Kidney Shot
Cheap Shot
Auto-applied slow
Vanish (and stealth in general)
Garrote Silence 3 sec(?)
Plenty more semi-short range teleports as sub due to shadowdance, but everyone and their mother is assass right now obviously

WW Monks:
2x Roll dunno cd, around 15-20sec
Flying Serpent Kick 45(?) sec cd
Slow in melee ranged, can be specced to 10yds
4 sec aoe stun
4 sec incapitate
Tiger's lust (name?) root removal and short sprint, 30(?) sec cd

Ferals:
Sprint, dunno cd
Leap, dunno cd
Bash 5 sec stun, 1 min(?) cd?
Opener-stun 2-4 sec duration something?
Some kind of combo Point stun I'm guessing?
Can shift out of roots/slows
Slow of some kind? Not sure..
God I need to learn ferals better...

Enhancement:
pretty clueless here
Slow through frostbrand
Purge to render many casters defensives useless
Grounding Totem to avoid cc (45(?) sec cd
Some kind of leap, dunno cd
Some kind of stun, semi-ranged?, don't know cd here either

Survival Hunter
Disengage 20 sec cd?
Harpoon guessing 20 sec cd
Master's call
Nets dunno cd, around 2-3 sec duration?
Slow


Not sure where I'm going with this, I'm just bored at work..

But overall this kind of shows that some specs will have trouble getting actual casts off. If those same specs have few/useless instants, they won't be very strong atm.. The only casters that really shines atm is as said. Balance dudus due to insane spread pressure, and I believe they have plenty of instants, especially if trained.. Just gotta wait for that moment to pop cds.. Fire mages are all about instant burst with Combustion and Meteor, which can pretty much 100-0 someone, unless purgespammed. Frost mages also have plenty of instants, in addition to plenty of control through slows that fire have no access to. The rest of the casters gets more or less shat on atm.. Affli Locks have their Azerite gimmick with corruption boosting drain life (soul?) damage which can wreck havoc in lower MMRs due to people not know what to do.. That is, if they survive long enough to stack it up.

I feel like shadow is doing okay, except versus the absolute worst constant-pressure cleaves, such as Turbo, but not through kiting, rather by tanking.. Will be interesting to see how 8.1 changes them.

[CritFromAfar]

PvP seems to be more balanced around arenas than anything else. Juking is realistic for facing fewer players, which makes it more balanced in arenas, but when you're up against more than 1 player it can be harder to juke. As far as I remember, silences/interupts used to both have DR attached to them, and this was more practical when facing an entire group of people in pvp, especially if you got caught alone, because the DR gave you a fighting chance to escape (run and heal, lol). You can easily juke one person, but if there's more than one person that might mean more than one silence/interupt. So sure you could just keep juking... while your health bar slowly dwindles. If you desperately need to get a heal off and you're forced to juke because there's more than one silence/interupt on the enemies side, yeah, you're not likely to last. You end up juking until you die.

So it might be more balanced in arenas, esp. with people to peel for you, but if you're running a less coordinated random solo than it's hell on earth. Because it's totally fun to be unable to cast or do anything because everyone takes turns silencing/interrupting to the point I end up a sitting duck while I facetank the enemy team. Basically, people say that the game is more balanced than ever, but I don't see it.

That aside, Blizz has this habit of taking really good survival talents that used to be baseline for all specs in a class and gating them into one spec only.

Also in all fairness, casters can LoS melee classes to an extent. This is why I don't like the Seething Shore map design, it's way too open. I prefer WSG because of the design of the bases, for both melee and caster classes. Some of my most tense PvP moments involved narrowly evading death while carrying the flag because I ducked into a small crevice and LoSed someone chasing me.

[Noctiphobia]

PvP seems to be more balanced around arenas than anything else. Juking is realistic for facing fewer players, which makes it more balanced in arenas, but when you're up against more than 1 player it can be harder to juke.

Even in 2v2 you sometimes end up facing resto shamans with rogues, though.

In my opinion, adding DR to interrupts would also add some skill, as interrupting someone would be a more meaningful choice (do I want to interrupt this cast and only get 2 seconds of interrupt out of it, or do I want to let him finish and wait for DR to end?). It could be DR per school, though.
I also think that not everyone should have an interrupt (remember when e.g. retri paladins didn't gave one?). It would certainly not break the game (considering that I'm playing shadow priest, which is one of two DPS specs without a "normal" interrupt - we have a silence instead, and boomkins get the solar beam, both of those have significantly longer cooldowns). It's good that there is at least some variety with cooldown, length and range, though.