Advice on uldir progression.

[Deleted]

So the guild I'm in is a freshly formed guild (as in since BFA dropped) and a few of the members are taking on their roles for the first time. I've had some fairly extensive experience with mythic and the old heroic raiding and whilst none of my guilds have ever been hardcore, most of them have managed to get at least one cutting edge per expansion (two with my longest guild Lei Shen and Garrosh) so I'm used to the whole "progression" thing when it comes to walls or feeling like you're stuck.

So with the exposition out of the way the situation is as follows.

We got HC G'huun and 2/8 mythic fairly quickly one after the other but the last two or three raids we have started to have some real wipes on Mythic Zekvoss.

At the end of our last raid we were informed we were going to switch over to Fetid rather than continue Zekvoss progress despite not having massive amounts of wipes (maybe 50 or so?). Admittedly it did feel like we were wiping at the same part for a long time (around the 3rd Surging Darkness we start to lose bodies, especially if the surging darkness has us in the middle circle during the 3rd eyebeam).

However. It definitely felt like we were BEGINNING to make progress and seeing the 2nd phase and now we're suddenly changing.

I guess the short way of asking this long rambling question is this.

After the Fetid nerfs is it worth us switching to him or stick it out with zekvoss? I honestly think right now we still need to do some extra recruiting to replace some of the dead wood in the team and that no amount of boss switching will fix that. I also HATE wasting all that raid time to just basically give up til later.

So, without getting out the logs and pawing through all of that what would you guys say is the easier fight between the two and is it worth wasting those 50 to 60 wipes or should we continue with zekvoss?

I've NEVER been in this situation before. Every other guild I've been in has stuck it out with the boss we're doing until we get that shit on lock (and I can cope with hundreds of wipes after the horror that was pre nerf 10 man siegecrafter! 500+ wipes we had on that then the day it got the nerf we one shot it >.<)

Thanks.

[Deleted]

My guild is in the same position and we just killed Zek'Vos yesterday after about 85 wipes.
I don't think you're gonna have an easier time on Fetid even with the nerfs, but maybe it would be good for your raids mentality to try something new for maybe 10-20 tries and then go back to Zek. Zek'Vos is definitely the easiest of the 3.
It does take time for most newly assembled teams to reach the point where you can seriously progress mythic content.
Best of luck!

[Alvito]

Vectis and Zek are both much easier than Fetid even after the nerfs to it. While it sucks to feel like you are just spinning your wheels and getting no where, switching bosses after a few days of progression work can certainly sink the ship too.

[killwithpwr]

What you are describing sound like a problem that would likely stem from having too many Melee players.... Is that right?

Having less melee will help your raid massively (sadly) on both Zekvos and Fetid.

If it's not a problem created by having too many melee, i would assume your guildies just need a bit more disciplin and give each other space, which will also be a massive issue on Fetid.

Darkness paired with Eyes is probably the most difficult part of Zekvos, but you still need to practice the Orb phase to kill him.
I would suggest that you stay on Zekvos, because you already started, and if you have the possibility - cut down on the Melee.

Going mid progression to a different boss, feels to me like lost time... But, you know... You do you.

[Oriana]

Vectis and Zek are both much easier than Fetid even after the nerfs to it. While it sucks to feel like you are just spinning your wheels and getting no where, switching bosses after a few days of progression work can certainly sink the ship too.

Zek is still much easier than Vectis and Fetid. I would say that Fetid is somewhat equal to Vectis now if you meet dps requirements.

[trm90]

Keep going. 90% of the difficulty of Zekvoz is your raiders individually learning how to deal with Surging + Beam/Deceit, the other 10% is figuring out the MC phase. You'll see a big jump in your progression once you can smoothly handle the overlaps.

Try to bring the same raiders each time - wiping an extra 2-3 times because your new players are figuring out their movement/defensives for the overlaps really slows things down. Look at your logs and talk to the people dying to those combos a lot, and discuss with them how to use their defensives properly.

[quite an expert in wow]

50 wipes seems like quite a little to switch already. I assume you guys take long breaks between wipes though to discuss things. Ever looked at guilds like Method? They wipe really fast and re-pull within minutes. Maybe that could help you to keep things up to speed and getting more out of your raid evening (= faster boss kills).

What could help for more detailed advice is to post logs. Without this it's mostly guessing and there's not much to say. Difficulty-wise I don't think Fetid is easier.

[Zantos]

Look at your strategy. Is it the best way to deal with that fight? Back in cata, I had a guild eventually fall apart because we were wiping on a heroic boss contentiously at the same part. After awhile, some of the players started to realize we where doing it completely wrong. The GMs refusal to change the strat is why we eventually broke apart. That and the fact they kept wanting to jump around at times as well, meaning we got no real practice on any heroic boss.

[potis]

I've NEVER been in this situation before. Every other guild I've been in has stuck it out with the boss we're doing until we get that shit on lock (and I can cope with hundreds of wipes after the horror that was pre nerf 10 man siegecrafter! 500+ wipes we had on that then the day it got the nerf we one shot it >.<)

I am not trying to insult but i have seen this happen so many times before with multiple people.

Its the usual mentality of "I am better than wiping on the <insert low number boss in the raid> and its getting tiring!".

Your leadership or whoever decided the switch is overestimating your raid and does not have enough knowledge to realize the level of your raid group.

Some people will always require more time to learn than others, and a boss like Zek'Voz, yeah even more.

So they are doing the usual mistake of "LETS SWITCH BOSS AND KILL FOR MENTALITY BOOST", which will have the opposite effect since Fetid is harder if you dont have the gear plus it wont change the fact your raid cant learn the mechanics as fast as the rest.

If you have people that clearly can not adapt to the level Mythic requires you wont get far, especially since you mentioned "First time on roles", as if that is an excuse for a 14 year old game.

Also, if you are already starting the "I AM A CUTTING EDGE RAIDER AND THIS RAID ISNT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME" , you are the major part of the problem since that guild isnt "Good enough" for you and its only a matter of time before you give up.

Your mentality is the reason i stopped raiding seriously many years ago, i used to have it too, but the reality is, in order to play with people of my level and experience, i need to play more (Dont want that and no time to do that), deal with immature tryhard younger players (Cant be arsed with that) which are also the majority of delusional shit players that can only play 1 class/spec and they will hit a roadblock/skillcap eventually to some harder boss.

But i found the fix, or well i did quit WoW for a couple of years until Flex was introduced, that way i could raid with friends/gf/family and tolerate how fucking bad they are, while also progressing/gearing up logically.

[Deja Thoris]

If you can't kill zekvoz then fetid will crush you.

Theres a good thread somewhere here on Zekvoz, go through that and see what mistakes you are making as a team and address them. Because if you go to fetid you are
1) Avoiding some glaring problems with your raid, and;
2) In for a potentially guild killing shock.

[Deleted]

If you can't kill zekvoz then fetid will crush you.

Theres a good thread somewhere here on Zekvoz, go through that and see what mistakes you are making as a team and address them. Because if you go to fetid you are
1) Avoiding some glaring problems with your raid, and;
2) In for a potentially guild killing shock.

You#re absolutely preaching to the choir, mate.

You've hit the nail on the head.

this does concern me to be fair but as it's a fresh guild and I like the guys there I'll give it a while before I really start to worry.

I'm always fine. Can always find a CE guild but am hoping that this guild can at least progress slowly even if we dont get our CE.

Thanks for cementing my thoughts

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And we are absolutely capable of killing Zekvos. What worries me more is the thought of officers switching bosses half way through progress because things have slowed down, you get me?

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I am not trying to insult but i have seen this happen so many times before with multiple people.

Its the usual mentality of "I am better than wiping on the <insert low number boss in the raid> and its getting tiring!".

Your leadership or whoever decided the switch is overestimating your raid and does not have enough knowledge to realize the level of your raid group.

Some people will always require more time to learn than others, and a boss like Zek'Voz, yeah even more.

So they are doing the usual mistake of "LETS SWITCH BOSS AND KILL FOR MENTALITY BOOST", which will have the opposite effect since Fetid is harder if you dont have the gear plus it wont change the fact your raid cant learn the mechanics as fast as the rest.

If you have people that clearly can not adapt to the level Mythic requires you wont get far, especially since you mentioned "First time on roles", as if that is an excuse for a 14 year old game.

Also, if you are already starting the "I AM A CUTTING EDGE RAIDER AND THIS RAID ISNT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME" , you are the major part of the problem since that guild isnt "Good enough" for you and its only a matter of time before you give up.

Your mentality is the reason i stopped raiding seriously many years ago, i used to have it too, but the reality is, in order to play with people of my level and experience, i need to play more (Dont want that and no time to do that), deal with immature tryhard younger players (Cant be arsed with that) which are also the majority of delusional shit players that can only play 1 class/spec and they will hit a roadblock/skillcap eventually to some harder boss.

But i found the fix, or well i did quit WoW for a couple of years until Flex was introduced, that way i could raid with friends/gf/family and tolerate how fucking bad they are, while also progressing/gearing up logically.

I never claimed to be too good or a cutting edge raider. Just that in my previous guilds we would rather stick it out and kill the boss we started progressing (unless it is literally broken and unkillable) and HOPE to get a CE at the end than switch fights halfway through progress.

I joined this guild precisely because I don't care about getting CE. I just wanna kill some mythic bosses at a steady rate and maybe get a CE down the line.

None of this had to do with my core question which is "How much harder would you rate Fetid than Zekvoss since the nerfs"

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Vectis and Zek are both much easier than Fetid even after the nerfs to it. While it sucks to feel like you are just spinning your wheels and getting no where, switching bosses after a few days of progression work can certainly sink the ship too.

I couldn't agree more and am glad that people here are basically echoing my sentiment.

Looks like we are going to stick it out with zekvoss and hopefully by the time we start progressing Fetid we have recruited a few more mythic level raiders

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What you are describing sound like a problem that would likely stem from having too many Melee players.... Is that right?

Having less melee will help your raid massively (sadly) on both Zekvos and Fetid.

If it's not a problem created by having too many melee, i would assume your guildies just need a bit more disciplin and give each other space, which will also be a massive issue on Fetid.

Darkness paired with Eyes is probably the most difficult part of Zekvos, but you still need to practice the Orb phase to kill him.
I would suggest that you stay on Zekvos, because you already started, and if you have the possibility - cut down on the Melee.

Going mid progression to a different boss, feels to me like lost time... But, you know... You do you.

You're absoultely echoing my thoughts, too.

this post was basically just me checking that I'm not being short sighted when I try to convince our officers to stick it out

[Deja Thoris]

If you want a non-hyperbole direct answer to your question, Zek'voz is a lot easier than Fetid.

It's kinda borne out by the number of kills, don't let the nerfs to fetid fool you, I'd still rate Zek'voz as easier by a wide margin.

One boss that isn't mentioned is Vectis. If you can make a healing rotation to use a cooldown for every immunosuppresion / (whatever the ability is called :s) combo it's not a hard fight. You need 3 in a phase for the add/boss ability (add places an absorb shield on the raid, boss does aoe dmg) so throughput CD to heal off every immunosuppresion) and then one last one as the phase ends because of an add only.
Any 5 healer team should be able to fill in all the blanks. Stick to this rigidly and if the add only gets one cast off its down to managing stacks (for which there are clever weakauras). If you are disciplined with the CD's and don't yolo them its potentially a 40 pull fight.

[Deleted]

50 wipes seems like quite a little to switch already. I assume you guys take long breaks between wipes though to discuss things. Ever looked at guilds like Method? They wipe really fast and re-pull within minutes. Maybe that could help you to keep things up to speed and getting more out of your raid evening (= faster boss kills).

What could help for more detailed advice is to post logs. Without this it's mostly guessing and there's not much to say. Difficulty-wise I don't think Fetid is easier.

Yeh this is a quiet gripe I have to be honest. In my previous guilds (especially when I was officer during MoP) once we had our strat we would spend very little time discussing things and try and get ressed, buffed and food quickly and go again.

Otherwise you run the risk of over thinking and messing with your strat too much unnecessarily. Unless something big has to change I'd rather not spend 2 or 3 minutes between each pull going over the same shit every pull.

It's deffo an issue i have but not something I'm willing to cause drama over during raids.

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If you want a non-hyperbole direct answer to your question, Zek'voz is a lot easier than Fetid.

It's kinda borne out by the number of kills, don't let the nerfs to fetid fool you, I'd still rate Zek'voz as easier by a wide margin.

One boss that isn't mentioned is Vectis. If you can make a healing rotation to use a cooldown for every immunosuppresion / (whatever the ability is called :s) combo it's not a hard fight. You need 3 in a phase for the add/boss ability (add places an absorb shield on the raid, boss does aoe dmg) so throughput CD to heal off every immunosuppresion) and then one last one as the phase ends because of an add only.
Any 5 healer team should be able to fill in all the blanks. Stick to this rigidly and if the add only gets one cast off its down to managing stacks (for which there are clever weakauras). If you are disciplined with the CD's and don't yolo them its potentially a 40 pull fight.

Sounds interesting! I will definitely be lobbying for Vectis after Zekvoss. Thanks for your concise reply

[Khallid]

After the Fetid nerfs is it worth us switching to him or stick it out with zekvoss? I honestly think right now we still need to do some extra recruiting to replace some of the dead wood in the team and that no amount of boss switching will fix that. I also HATE wasting all that raid time to just basically give up til later.

Zek'voz is a walk in the park compared to Fetid. Your group probably thinks that Fetid is just like in heroic and all you have to do is burn the adds, but that is not the case. The fight is mechanically very different from heroic because of how the debuffs spread.

You should kill both Zek'voz and Vectis before going there. It was nerfed because it was way too hard, but it's still harder than Zek'voz and Vectis after nerfs.

50 wipes is not a crazy amount, at least not high enough to be crying about it. Zek'voz is a classic boss where the last phase is very punishing so you will not down it if you don't have everyone alive entering the last phase. In fact, having battle-ress available during phase 2 (which means not wasting them on phase 1) is massive because people are guaranteed to die to the mind-control.

The overlap of surge and eye beam will always happen, and be ready because that overlap happens again in phase 2, so you need to prioritize eye beam spread over everything else at that time and get used to it. Even if RNG is bad, the eye beam can still be dealt with. Even if the surge happens in the center, you don't need to be all clumped up. You need to spread before eye beam starts happening and use the whole perimeter of the surge. You also need to be ready to step into the surge with your eye beam if you're in a bad spot. In case you haven't used it already, there are weakauras that let you know if you're clear for eye beam or not, which are much more useful than just DBM or /range commands. The surge also overlaps with the orb so it's good to have someone with an immunity always soak that one. If mechanics are done right, phase 2 is less healing intensive than phase 1, so you should let one or two healers get mind controlled early as well, and abuse shaman's reincarnate after mind control if you brought any of them. If you have any DKs they should always be the last to soak, since gripping mind-controlled people is very useful.

[quite an expert in wow]

Yeh this is a quiet gripe I have to be honest. In my previous guilds (especially when I was officer during MoP) once we had our strat we would spend very little time discussing things and try and get ressed, buffed and food quickly and go again.

Otherwise you run the risk of over thinking and messing with your strat too much unnecessarily. Unless something big has to change I'd rather not spend 2 or 3 minutes between each pull going over the same shit every pull.

It's deffo an issue i have but not something I'm willing to cause drama over during raids.

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Sounds interesting! I will definitely be lobbying for Vectis after Zekvoss. Thanks for your concise reply

Well, you could just ask the officers what they think of it and maybe link some Method progression video's where you show them how the progress. There's no need to cause drama. Just bring it in a polite way?!

[BiggestNoob]

If eye beams are that much of a problem, then circles on Fetid are going to wipe you every time, even if you have the DPS for it.

If you're 5 healing Zek'voz you should drop it to 4. If you have the DPS to kill Fetid easily, Zek'voz is a lot shorter and much easier as you don't have to deal with more overlaps with adds.

[KaPe]

If you want to change a boss, go to Vectis. It is a very different kind of challenge when compared to both Zek'voz and Fetid. Positioning is pretty important, but there's very little movement and you only need to dodge the geysers in the intermission. Otherwise, split into four groups, count to six and have competent healers. The dps check is fairly lenient, too.

Fetid has same positioning requirements as Zek'voz, except they are present throughout the entire fight, not just several key moments. Sure, spreading dot stacks isn't as spectacular as several people exploding from a bad Eye Beam, but it's an enormous strain on healer and people will probably die either way. That's on top of a much harsher dps check. The nerfs weren't to make him an easy boss, they made him killable for the very best players. Average mythic raider is nowhere near that competent and is bridging that gap with superior gear and more buff stacks. And if Zek'voz is problematic to you, you're almost certainly not at a level where Fetid adds will be "easy".

Seriously, go Vectis. He's still harder than Zek'voz, being a decent healing check, but at least it's a different kind of difficulty. Maybe your group is better suited for that one. Fetid is just more of the same things that are already wiping you.

[ceall]

Stick to zekvoz, it really is the easiest of the 3.
Do Fetid as your 5th boss, as vectis is just training how to evenly stack up vectors one after another.

Regarding zekvoz, here's what we did:
2 tanks (blood dk + X)
3 healers
15 dps (2 havoc with fel barrage skilled, do not bring more than 5 melee)

With the DHs mostly taking care of the little adds (a single dh alone deals damage equal to ~20% of each little add), your group can switch to the big adds and as a result to the boss faster. With a setup like ours, we could skip the third set of adds (even for progression).
STRICT prohibition for melees to damage the boss during dance+eyebeam overlap (to prevent eyebeam spreading due to lack of room).

In Phase 2, have an order for orb soaking:
Depending on with how many combat rezzes you go into phase 2 (preferably 2), let warriors (or any other class with execute) take the early ones, rezzes them and let them take a second orb towards the end (~18%). After your warriors have taken the orb, shamans are next. They can ankh. Then ask your group for timings, who has cooldowns ready to go? The afflock? Awesome! You take no. 5.

[Debased]

Vectis and Zek are both much easier than Fetid even after the nerfs to it. While it sucks to feel like you are just spinning your wheels and getting no where, switching bosses after a few days of progression work can certainly sink the ship too.

This. Fetid is going to give you more trouble than either, especially if you're melee heavy.

[Kief]

If you are struggling to the point of needing 50-60 wipes and not even getting Zek'voz down then there is really no hope whatsoever that you will ever kill Fetid.
Fetid requires more positional awareness, higher dps and better coordination than Zek'voz. Stay where you are.