Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Bhorin]

And now you're just not reading. I was comparing, in your example, a 6x titanforge from a +10 to a 6x titanforge from a WQ - the chances are the same, but the base will vary (M+ base ilvl will eventually change, and WQ ilvl will eventually change). I intentionally did not use any ilvl in my example so you wouldn't confuse my example. My main point would be why it's fair to acknowledge a 6x titanforge being deterministic in a raid or M+, while claiming a 6x titanforge from a WQ being a super edge case?

Difference being a 6x titanforge in a WQ is equivalent to a +10 getting a 2x titanforge which magnitudes in difference. 6x titanforge in any scenario is a super edge case. I have no fucking clue what you are on about. I honestly have no clue what your argument even is at this point and I will revert to my previous statement of stepping away or just simply not replying to you.

[Gouca]

As I've stated before, RNG shouldn't be taken to the degree below. There's a major difference in work in running a M0 and M10 for the vast majority of the player-base.

[Rinaul]

People have a problem with it because it's getting gear you don't deserve. You did nothing to earn it but you get something obscenely higher item level than the content you're doing for the most part. For example, getting 385 ilvl trinket from lfr which is something I witnessed last week. That person is a lfr runner for life and has no need for such an item for just doing lfr and nothing else. I myself don't care but that's the issue people take with it.

[Alkizon]

The issue is not people getting upgrades, it s the fact that it ruins progression, especially raid's one (where in wow you traditionally used to get ilvl X for a tier of content and if you wanted better ilvl you needed to move to higher tier of content). And it leads to the ilvl creep requirement in order to join PUGS.

Also, no, it doesn't feel good getting mythic raid ilvl gear from the same LFR raid (it happened to me).

Yeap. And now add to this personal loot scaling (lvl/ilvl/specialization) and you no longer need to make biger raids/dungeons anymore because people can get "necessary custom items" all even from single places (boss/chest), and finally RNG will further extend your inaction in exchange for players' "Sisyphus' work". Do you see now what's standing behind it all?

2. Characteristics (&cobblestones of shame into PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up/Azerite-remark) +(+/+)+/+/+(+/+)+

[kamuimac]

Its impossible to get full Mythic Titanforged gear.

I dare you to show me one person in the world with full Titanforged gear.

Its not a realistic goal to have.

Stop....chasing.....titanforge

Problem solved.
You dont need to have BiS.
ITS IMPOSIIBLE TO HAVE BIS

So what in the hell are you doing farming something that is impossible to get???!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?

it is true that it is impossible

but with very little will and invention what if it would be possible

what if at the same time it could make proffesions relevant again .

imagine if for example crafter could craft gear upgrade items which would give +5 itlv (blacksmithing/tailoring/leatherworking) , socket (JC) , tertiary stats (inscription) and those could potentialy go all the way to max itlv possible.

ofc getting them all the way from lets say 340 would be very pricy but for example from 385 to 400 ? not so much .

imagine your guild being stuck on boss - well then players could potentialy grind enough to craft enough upgrades to push gear higher.

this way people could have something to do outside of raiding that is not doing meaningless WQ or boring like hell mythic + with hope of TF

everything is possible with a little of will from game creators.

but then again you know who would protest ? the same people who are against TF because in their eyes only they deserve loot - other 95% of population doesnt deserve jack shit.

shame if i would be dev i would implement system like this imidiately .

[samus]

Progression mainly.

We had common, uncommon, rare, epic, and then legendary.

But now we have common, uncommon, rare, epic, epic titanforged, epic socketed, epic socketed with titan forge. So your BiS item may be great but everything, but if it's not BiS with socket and titanforged then the treadmill continues.

Wow has become a little bit like diablo 3 but with less frequency of gear.

[HuxNeva]

before WFing/TFing if you saw someone at (we'll use bfa ilvl for reference) 360 - 370 you knew "ok this guy has done some 7-10's (I know mythic + and tf/wf have never existed separately it's an easy way to highlight the diminished value of ilvl) I can confidently invite him to this dungeon and it should go relatively smoothly"

I haven't played so much in BfA. My ilvl is 370. Most of it comes from HC Uldir. Can you, confidently invite me into a +10 M+ for an instance I haven't done before? Better gear will always add power, but M+ is full of mechanics that will still wipe you if you don't know how to handle them. The knowledge/experience component is a huge factor. iLvl on its own will NEVER be a decent signal for M+, with or without TF.

I did run a lot of M+ in Legion (1.158 to be precise). As for high TF back then, I had 4x+20 and 1x+25. Look, we all know people win the lottery as the press tells you. Now how many of your friends won the lottery? The 'problem' (I don't think it is a problem as my posts will tell you in detail) is overstated.

[Cathbadh]

I don't have a problem with it in principle. What I have a problem with is needing to run outdated content in hopes of a titanforged piece that'll be significantly better than current content. I also have an issue with randomness being added on top of randomness on top of randomness when it comes to gear.


What I don't have an issue with: people who do less content or other content than me getting big rewards. I know this is always thrown up as a straw man in defense of TF, but it isn't accurate. I truly don't care what gear other people have. If you get an ilvl 410 weapon to drop, congrads. I'm happy for you. I just don't have to be running Uldir in hopes of a TF piece when there's a new raid out I could be doing.

[Flarelaine]

I dont get how this is not clear. I said that LFR gear from the NEW RAID is superior to Uldir lfr/normal/heroic gear, meaning that once the NEW RAID comes out, there is 0 reason to ever run Uldir in BFA.

This is factually incorrect. Loot from the next raid will be a single tier higher, so Siege LFR gear will only be superior ot Uldir LFR gear.

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Why not just hate TF?

Yes, that's the easy way. Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you.

[Alkizon]

kamuimac
it is true that it is impossible

but with very little will and invention what if it would be possible

what if at the same time it could make proffesions relevant again .

imagine if for example crafter could craft gear upgrade items which would give +5 itlv (blacksmithing/tailoring/leatherworking) , socket (JC) , tertiary stats (inscription) and those could potentialy go all the way to max itlv possible.

ofc getting them all the way from lets say 340 would be very pricy but for example from 385 to 400 ? not so much .

imagine your guild being stuck on boss - well then players could potentialy grind enough to craft enough upgrades to push gear higher.

this way people could have something to do outside of raiding that is not doing meaningless WQ or boring like hell mythic + with hope of TF

everything is possible with a little of will from game creators.

but then again you know who would protest ? the same people who are against TF because in their eyes only they deserve loot - other 95% of population doesnt deserve jack shit.

shame if i would be dev i would implement system like this imidiately .

Then "epic" upgrade should be only in raids/raid's crafts' recipes+reagents There is nothing wrong with shifting NPC's functions to players, BUT! players can't accept badges from you, for which you "working for some time, making part of content staying relevant", moreover, you better don't provoke developers to make wider stats' gaps between tiers.

There was time, I also once fell into such trap. I'm a little ashamed to show it, but it was long time ago and it was my first serious attempts to understand general system. Here is <picture>, there is table below it, according to which you can upgrade items (in theory) through craft or dungeons/raids/reputation (through which you can also get this craft) - you can change/redistribute stats and characteristics, add items improvement elements (holes for stones, lines for characteristics, their replacement, even item's lvl and quality, etc.) with it, each such improving craft has a “limitation” (area of ​​content from where it can be obtained). All this applies to items with absolutely any quality and different quality items differ mainly in number of improvements available to them. What follows from this? You can take good old Sulfuras and, after a little tormented by passing thru all previous content, make it relevant to current one. Item itself in this case is a kind of matrix, which you fill with necessary elements in your own discretion (as kit or bag) and, at the end, you get fully equipped universal items' set, with PvP&PvE parameters, and necessary stats and characteristics together (only that number of clear upgrade levels is limited). You can still continue to "change/customize" each item depending on situation and desire (with same mechanisms as before). But you will already have "unlocked" all possible upgrades. You already feel that this reminds you of something (difference mainly is in degree of control and operated parameters). So...

...so I was told (by friends), that everything is very good with my imagination, and this is great, but system is thus becoming too complicated, moreover, certain elements of the game motivation/content separation are lost, and it will also affect every subsequent change in the game, and it's necessary, very long and hard to isolate random fluctuations of mathematical calculations, and company is very weak in this sense (they have problems even with rather trivial things). Moreover, we already have transmogrification in order to preserve items' "skins", so everything is much easier already.

Ie system is interesting, but not worth the effort. And if you take into account latest game changes, it also doesn't fit into current design. Moreover, in some sense, it turns out to resemble part of similar “Korean” system, which most WoW players possible won't really like.

In short, if don't go into deep details, it’s not good...

ps. Now friends (jokingly) laugh on me sometimes, that Blizzard stole idea of items' "scalable", flexible characteristics and lvl from this one. But I meant something completely different. I'll hate myself if it's true

[Flarelaine]

Imagine going to Mcdonalds to get a 4 piece Mcnuggets, you pay, get your nuggets and your happy and all that, then some idiot comes and also gets 4 piece Mcnuggets but it Mcforges into a 12 piece Mcnuggets with soda and some fires and you're standing there like a twat with your dumb 4 piece Mcnuggets while he/she has more than you for some weird reason even though you both payed the same price but you are less rewarded because....

And is the said example, you have exactly what you had asked for. What's the loss?

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I have a 375 TF trinket from a normal Mythic (0). During about 45 runs in M+ with the vast majority being >9, I've never seen an equal or a better trinket dropping, although the work behind the scenes has been in another scale. This shouldn't happen.

If you believe looting that trinket should not have happened, you can always scrap it and correct this terrible mistake.

[Parhelion]

The short answer is this:

Titanforging trades long-term excitement and pride about a character ("I'm so well geared because I'm a dedicated raider") for instant gratification of winning a lottery.
For Blizzard, the short term benefit is that players are less likely to unsubscribe today, but more likely to unsubscribe tomorrow.
For players, the short term benefit is instant gratification, but with every subsequent titanforge, we lose the sense of real progress.

Warforging and Titanforging, being random, offers no real tangible long-term rewards to a team of dedicated raiders / m+ players, but does offer tangible rewards to the specific individual that's lucky enough, especially to a returning player who needs to "prove his/her worth" quick.

For long-term health of the game and its active playerbase, titanforging is really, really bad.
However, from Blizzard's perspective and returning players' perspective it's way better, because it rewards the new/returning player faster.

The solution itself is retarded, not the idea behind it.

As other people already said, item tokens and warforge tokens were the good middle ground, probably abandoned because the average IQ of decision-makers for this game is about 80.

The new azerite gear reward system is proof enough for everything I just typed. Seeing how they went too far with it, Emissaries now basically hand out tokens, but again with a lottery attached to it.

[Xaredis]

I haven't played so much in BfA. My ilvl is 370. Most of it comes from HC Uldir. Can you, confidently invite me into a +10 M+ for an instance I haven't done before? Better gear will always add power, but M+ is full of mechanics that will still wipe you if you don't know how to handle them. The knowledge/experience component is a huge factor. iLvl on its own will NEVER be a decent signal for M+, with or without TF.

I did run a lot of M+ in Legion (1.158 to be precise). As for high TF back then, I had 4x+20 and 1x+25. Look, we all know people win the lottery as the press tells you. Now how many of your friends won the lottery? The 'problem' (I don't think it is a problem as my posts will tell you in detail) is overstated.

No you can never confidently invite anyone and be assured you won't have a bad experience but in the past you could use Ilvl and be fine for say 70% of the time now its more rolling a six sided die if you go by ilvl only. Ive ran with people at 1k score that were terrible but raider.io is NOW the best metric since ilvl at every stage of the game is inflated.

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It's a meaningless goal.
I swear to God if a person's role model favorite actor suicides everyone goes behind him and does the same...
Dont people have brains?

The brain to reach the conclusion that is impossible to have a full BiS gear THEREFORE stop repeating content in hopes for titanforges.

We've gone in enough circles if you're just going to outright say "your goals are meaningless and you're enjoying the game wrong" theres really nothing left to discuss. Its a fucking video game the whole thing is meaningless players themselves give meaning to videogames and a lot of us use to give meaning to reaching a finish line and were complaining because something we use to be able to achieve has over time completely eroded solely because TFing.

[Sarkol]

Well, forging is nice, when it is not wild and loose. I am wearing my world.quest trinket, which I got from world quest before m+ opened. It sucks. I am 6/8M. I basically was running around and hitting mobs with my lances and I got it. It felt nice, but when all your gear is based on luck with 0 control... it really sucks after those initial 30seconds of bragging about tf in guild chat.

But *all* of your gear isn't based around luck if you raid Mythic. You'll largely be wearing 385 and higher gear. I don't see the issue of getting a TF WQ trinket. Why does it matter? It will be replaced after a while anyway. Sorry i just don't understand the emotions here.

[nocturnus]

But *all* of your gear isn't based around luck if you raid Mythic. You'll largely be wearing 385 and higher gear. I don't see the issue of getting a TF WQ trinket. Why does it matter? It will be replaced after a while anyway. Sorry i just don't understand the emotions here.

Honest now, how often have you seen a titanforged WQ trinket worth keeping? When WQ items forge, it barely ever over ilvl 345.

I really don't see the problem with WF and TF, it just doesn't matter and the comments about LFR gear invalidating heroic gear are just beyond idiotic.

[Sarkol]

Honest now, how often have you seen a titanforged WQ trinket worth keeping? When WQ items forge, it barely ever over ilvl 345.

I really don't see the problem with WF and TF, it just doesn't matter and the comments about LFR gear invalidating heroic gear are just beyond idiotic.

Don't think i've ever seen a WQ trinket be any significant i level tbh. Just seems a nonexistent problem. It's all in people minds that they have to somehow farm TF gear. What an awful way to play the game.

[nocturnus]

Don't think i've ever seen a WQ trinket be any significant i level tbh. Just seems a nonexistent problem. It's all in people minds that they have to somehow farm TF gear. What an awful way to play the game.

I know right?

BFA is far from perfect, which is why I'm not playing anymore. People exaggerate and whine about everything though, even about problems that aren't there.

[MyndZero]

The majority of players only do LFR. If anything then the game doesn't need mythic raids. I don't see how the removal of either would be good for the game though.

Everything you said was wrong, but I want to touch on this. If there is no LFR, people don't stop raiding. If they want to, that's their choice - that means they weren't that interested in it in the first place.

Why? Because they have two legitimate options.

a) Join a guild and start doing normal mode.
b) pug normal mode

Now what's the "downside" to doing either of these two things instead of LFR? Well I can think of two.

1) The content is harder - Sure, but not really. Dungeons are harder than LFR so people should adapt to that fairly easily but this isn't the big downside, it's the next point.
2) It requires you to socialize to do the content. This isn't a bad thing, and if you think it is then you are not a fan of MMORPG's because that is the backbone that the genre is built off.

[Naked Snake]

Everything you said was wrong, but I want to touch on this. If there is no LFR, people don't stop raiding. If they want to, that's their choice - that means they weren't that interested in it in the first place.

It's not that they're not interested. If they weren't interested they wouldn't do LFR to begin with. It just takes way too much time to find a group for normals and to actually kill bosses. Not everybody has that time.

Without LFR people would then complain that normal mode is too easy and needs to be removed.

[Lime]

People who dislike titanforging, must for sure dislike any rare mount/pet/item drops too, since why should anyone else get something because of pure luck in this game????

That's not the argument, no matter how hard you try to bold it. Are people really so delusional that, despite the many replies in this thread, they think that everyone who dislikes the feature solely dislikes it because "someone else can get good gear"?

And it's a bad argument anyways. Last I checked, even if someone were to care about that, mounts and pets aren't power increases.

You guys need to stop pigeonholing the reasons behind it into what just so happens to be convenient for your argument. It makes you look silly. This is getting as bad as the Official Forums in regards to this.